I’m a collector of 21 peace dollars -
It says the grade was revealed but I didn’t see that. What about this puppy?
You’ll be lucky to get this one right -
I think it is a 21 with a really good strike, but a little rub on the eagle's feathers. AU58. That being said, I prefer it to the OP coin because of the strike.
If the OP coin was a 1922-1935 Peace it would probably grade XF-40 due to wear on the hair.
Perhaps a better grading comparable would be this 1921 Peace Dollar graded PR64:
With only 8 minted +/- this strike is as good as it gets?
1907 HR Saints never seem to suffer from weak strikes. Probably because the gold is softer. They went low relief because the high relief would stack well at the bank.
But the grading standard should be the same for high relief as it for low relief Peace Dollars.
Agree 100%. But it seems like overgrading gets criticized far more often.
If someone over-grades (or guesses higher than the assigned grade) it’s more likely to give the impression that they’re not sharp, because they missed some flaws/negatives. On the other hand, if they under-grade (or guess lower than the assigned grade) they might appear to be sharper because they did a better job of picking up on the coin’s flaws/negatives. Under-grading is a safer option.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Agree 100%. But it seems like overgrading gets criticized far more often.
If someone over-grades (or guesses higher than the assigned grade) it’s more likely to give the impression that they’re not sharp, because they missed some flaws/negatives. On the other hand, if they under-grade (or guess lower than the assigned grade) they might appear to be sharper because they did a better job of picking up on the coin’s flaws/negatives. Under-grading is a safer option.😉
I call it "Numismatic Virtue Signaling"
It's akin to saying "no problem coins in my collection!"
@conrad99 said:
Well that proof is pretty darned perfect.
I saved this image of a business strike
but I can't remember where I saw it
That definitely is a First Strike specimen. Notice how it has no die polish lines below the Y........ Die polish lines indicates a die that has been reworked, thus the strike on the devices is poor, as they were not re-engraved.
@OldIndianNutKase said:
Perhaps a better grading comparable would be this 1921 Peace Dollar graded PR64:
With only 8 minted +/- this strike is as good as it gets?
1907 HR Saints never seem to suffer from weak strikes. Probably because the gold is softer. They went low relief because the high relief would stack well at the bank.
But the grading standard should be the same for high relief as it for low relief Peace Dollars.
OINK
The HR Saints are no comparison.
Those were struck three times each on a medal press, with annealing between strikings. Medal presses were used for proofs.
The HR Peace dollars were struck once on a toggle press.
Those were struck three times each on a medal press, with annealing between strikings. Medal presses were used for proofs.
The HR Peace dollars were struck once on a toggle press.
There are MS 21's with a strike very similar to the '21 proofs as I posted before.......I have two of them. 21's with mushy hair should grade no higher than 64. PCGS cannot just ignore strike because most 21's have a poor strike. Most ALL of the 66 and 67 coins on CoinFacts have mushy hair and most also have die polish lines below the Y in LIBERTY indicating a rebuilt die. The dies wore out early on the high relief Peace Dollars. The die lines do not exist on early strike 21's.
Medal presses would make no difference when striking with a worn die. The result would be the same mushy hair. Die wear was the problem with the high relief Peace Dollars. And they had to be refurbished for continued production, but they were used dies that left a poor strike. I would not argue that the Peace proofs may have been struck with a medal press? ....not sure if anyone know as production was so small and considering the year were just trial pieces. But the die polish lines indicate a die that has been rebuilt, that will continue to produce poor strikes.
PCGS should decertify all of the '21 Peace dollars that have a weak strike and downgrade them for their poor strike. The grading standard for high relief Peace Dollars should be the same as for Low Relief Peace Dollars.
Those were struck three times each on a medal press, with annealing between strikings. Medal presses were used for proofs.
The HR Peace dollars were struck once on a toggle press.
There are MS 21's with a strike very similar to the '21 proofs as I posted before.......I have two of them. 21's with mushy hair should grade no higher than 64. PCGS cannot just ignore strike because most 21's have a poor strike. Most ALL of the 66 and 67 coins on CoinFacts have mushy hair and most also have die polish lines below the Y in LIBERTY indicating a rebuilt die. The dies wore out early on the high relief Peace Dollars. The die lines do not exist on early strike 21's.
Medal presses would make no difference when striking with a worn die. The result would be the same mushy hair. Die wear was the problem with the high relief Peace Dollars. And they had to be refurbished for continued production, but they were used dies that left a poor strike. I would not argue that the Peace proofs may have been struck with a medal press? ....not sure if anyone know as production was so small and considering the year were just trial pieces. But the die polish lines indicate a die that has been rebuilt, that will continue to produce poor strikes.
PCGS should decertify all of the '21 Peace dollars that have a weak strike and downgrade them for their poor strike. The grading standard for high relief Peace Dollars should be the same as for Low Relief Peace Dollars.
First, what is a rebuilt die?
Second, the Peace Proofs were struck once on a medal press with fresh dies. Those dies were then used to strike circulation coins.
Die wear could be a problem, but I’d say insufficient striking pressure was a bigger reason the hair shows flat on the majority of 1921 Peace dollars. It’s difficult to get a high relief design to strike up on a toggle press at high speed.
I don’t think PCGS will be downgrading any Peace dollars for a weak strike. From what I’ve seen, strike plays a very minimal role in grading. I don’t know why this is, but that just seems to be the way it is.
@FlyingAl
A rebuilt die is one that has die polishing marks which signify a die that has seen many strikes and is no longer producing the desired quality coins.
The significant evidence is that there exists 21 Peace Dollars with well defined hair vs. mushy hair. I have two in fron of me at this moment. And I have scrolled through CoinFacts pics trying to find all of the well struck specimens. Oddly I find some graded only 63 or 62. Most all of the 66 and 67's have mushy hair which could be indicative of weak striking pressure as you have postulated, or a worn die. But the exists a no so insignificant number of specimens that are as fully struck as the proof 21 I previously posted.
Perhaps a coin's strike is not significant to a coin's technical grade. However, I place a great deal of importance on strike whether PCGS grades strike or not. Mushy hair 21's lose all appear in my eyes as collector coins should have great definition, not just "market acceptable" for the coin. But I also do not accept mint defects "as minted" to be an acceptable standard either. I do not care to collect low quality mint products nor mint errors as well. "as minted" and "market acceptable" only diminish the quality of the coin, as does weakly struck coins.
@OldIndianNutKase said:
I think it is a 21 with a really good strike, but a little rub on the eagle's feathers. AU58. That being said, I prefer it to the OP coin because of the strike.
If the OP coin was a 1922-1935 Peace it would probably grade XF-40 due to wear on the hair.
Life is not supposed to be fair?
OINK
The OP’s coin would grade mint state, regardless of what date it was, because it doesn’t exhibit any wear. To say that it “would probably grade XF40 due to wear on the hair” doesn’t make sense.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Following is a commentary from Roger Burdette regarding strike quality on 1921 Peace Dollars:
While I am not sure that all of Burdette's article is included, his points are valid regarding strike quality on 1921's. To me it is obvious that PCGS has chosen to ignore the difference existing in strike quality with 1921 Peace Dollars. While most have poor strike quality and have received high PCGS grades, those with "original" strike quality have received no credit for their strike quality.
Just because the lower quality strikes were "as minted" does not infer that they are of equality as those "First
Strikes" of that year. To grade 66-67 the strike needs to be "First Strike" quality.
@MFeld I was stating that a 1922 - 1935 coin with that softness of the hair would grade XF-40 due to wear on the hair. I did not say that the OP coin was not MS. The coins 1922-1935 do not have weakness in the hair, and if they did it would likely be due to wear.
My issue is with PCGS grading standards that ignore strike quality on '21 Peace Dollars.
I was browsing Ebay just to familiarize myself with 1921 Peace dollars, and came across this! The slab looks totally fake, but the cert checks out. Is it real?
@OldIndianNutKase said:
Following is a commentary from Roger Burdette regarding strike quality on 1921 Peace Dollars:
While I am not sure that all of Burdette's article is included, his points are valid regarding strike quality on 1921's. To me it is obvious that PCGS has chosen to ignore the difference existing in strike quality with 1921 Peace Dollars. While most have poor strike quality and have received high PCGS grades, those with "original" strike quality have received no credit for their strike quality.
Just because the lower quality strikes were "as minted" does not infer that they are of equality as those "First
Strikes" of that year. To grade 66-67 the strike needs to be "First Strike" quality.
@MFeld I was stating that a 1922 - 1935 coin with that softness of the hair would grade XF-40 due to wear on the hair. I did not say that the OP coin was not MS. The coins 1922-1935 do not have weakness in the hair, and if they did it would likely be due to wear.
My issue is with PCGS grading standards that ignore strike quality on '21 Peace Dollars.
OINK
It’s certainly your prerogative to take issue with the grading standards used by PCGS. You’re one of many collectors who places more emphasis on strike than the grading companies do.
This was a “Guess The Grade” thread however. So ideally, the guesses are based on perceived PCGS standards, rather than our individual ones.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
As far as I can tell, strike is already considered in Peace dollar grading, and from the point of view of strike, I don’t really think the ‘21 is viewed all that differently than the other coins in the series.
Strike issues also plague the 25-S and 28-S (along with many others) and the pop reports reflect that. Compared to Morgans, the “bell curve” of grading is usually a point lower than Morgans, and I think that’s mostly strike-related. For what it’s worth, I think there’s a little “anti-Peace dollar” bias built into professional grading of Peace dollars (when compared to Morgans) but that’s just me.
Comments
I’m a collector of 21 peace dollars -
It says the grade was revealed but I didn’t see that. What about this puppy?
You’ll be lucky to get this one right -
m
Few more pics same coin / first to get it right gets a free coin!
Free coin? If you're offering that free coin I'll jump in now.
PS: why do the 1921 Peace Dollar slabs say High Relief?
Are there low-relief 21 Peace Dollars?
Agree 100%. But it seems like overgrading gets criticized far more often.
I think it is a 21 with a really good strike, but a little rub on the eagle's feathers. AU58. That being said, I prefer it to the OP coin because of the strike.
If the OP coin was a 1922-1935 Peace it would probably grade XF-40 due to wear on the hair.
Life is not supposed to be fair?
OINK
"Lack of detail" and "Wear" are not the same thing.
Just sayin'.
Perhaps a better grading comparable would be this 1921 Peace Dollar graded PR64:
With only 8 minted +/- this strike is as good as it gets?
1907 HR Saints never seem to suffer from weak strikes. Probably because the gold is softer. They went low relief because the high relief would stack well at the bank.
But the grading standard should be the same for high relief as it for low relief Peace Dollars.
OINK
Well that proof is pretty darned perfect.
I saved this image of a business strike
but I can't remember where I saw it
If someone over-grades (or guesses higher than the assigned grade) it’s more likely to give the impression that they’re not sharp, because they missed some flaws/negatives. On the other hand, if they under-grade (or guess lower than the assigned grade) they might appear to be sharper because they did a better job of picking up on the coin’s flaws/negatives. Under-grading is a safer option.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Hmmmm I wonder how bad the strike can get…
Type collector, mainly into Seated. -formerly Ownerofawheatiehorde. Good BST transactions with: mirabela, OKCC, MICHAELDIXON, Gerard
I call it "Numismatic Virtue Signaling"
It's akin to saying "no problem coins in my collection!"
That definitely is a First Strike specimen. Notice how it has no die polish lines below the Y........ Die polish lines indicates a die that has been reworked, thus the strike on the devices is poor, as they were not re-engraved.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
@Che_Grapes "You’ll be lucky to get this one right"
MS-62
The HR Saints are no comparison.
Those were struck three times each on a medal press, with annealing between strikings. Medal presses were used for proofs.
The HR Peace dollars were struck once on a toggle press.
Coin Photographer.
Not bad! Pm me your mailing address
Let's please try to avoid derailing this thread. Thanks!
Coin Photographer.
Looks like a winner! I did not answer as I remember you posting it.
Donato
Donato's Complete US Type Set ---- Donato's Dansco 7070 Modified Type Set ---- Donato's Basic U.S. Coin Design Set
Successful transactions: Shrub68 (Jim), MWallace (Mike)
That’s what I thought - but apparently I’m detailing the thread … my bad
@FlyingAl The HR Saints are no comparison.
Those were struck three times each on a medal press, with annealing between strikings. Medal presses were used for proofs.
The HR Peace dollars were struck once on a toggle press.
There are MS 21's with a strike very similar to the '21 proofs as I posted before.......I have two of them. 21's with mushy hair should grade no higher than 64. PCGS cannot just ignore strike because most 21's have a poor strike. Most ALL of the 66 and 67 coins on CoinFacts have mushy hair and most also have die polish lines below the Y in LIBERTY indicating a rebuilt die. The dies wore out early on the high relief Peace Dollars. The die lines do not exist on early strike 21's.
Medal presses would make no difference when striking with a worn die. The result would be the same mushy hair. Die wear was the problem with the high relief Peace Dollars. And they had to be refurbished for continued production, but they were used dies that left a poor strike. I would not argue that the Peace proofs may have been struck with a medal press? ....not sure if anyone know as production was so small and considering the year were just trial pieces. But the die polish lines indicate a die that has been rebuilt, that will continue to produce poor strikes.
PCGS should decertify all of the '21 Peace dollars that have a weak strike and downgrade them for their poor strike. The grading standard for high relief Peace Dollars should be the same as for Low Relief Peace Dollars.
Aww crap, I was really hoping the thread would straight-grade.
First, what is a rebuilt die?
Second, the Peace Proofs were struck once on a medal press with fresh dies. Those dies were then used to strike circulation coins.
Die wear could be a problem, but I’d say insufficient striking pressure was a bigger reason the hair shows flat on the majority of 1921 Peace dollars. It’s difficult to get a high relief design to strike up on a toggle press at high speed.
I don’t think PCGS will be downgrading any Peace dollars for a weak strike. From what I’ve seen, strike plays a very minimal role in grading. I don’t know why this is, but that just seems to be the way it is.
Coin Photographer.
@FlyingAl
A rebuilt die is one that has die polishing marks which signify a die that has seen many strikes and is no longer producing the desired quality coins.
The significant evidence is that there exists 21 Peace Dollars with well defined hair vs. mushy hair. I have two in fron of me at this moment. And I have scrolled through CoinFacts pics trying to find all of the well struck specimens. Oddly I find some graded only 63 or 62. Most all of the 66 and 67's have mushy hair which could be indicative of weak striking pressure as you have postulated, or a worn die. But the exists a no so insignificant number of specimens that are as fully struck as the proof 21 I previously posted.
Perhaps a coin's strike is not significant to a coin's technical grade. However, I place a great deal of importance on strike whether PCGS grades strike or not. Mushy hair 21's lose all appear in my eyes as collector coins should have great definition, not just "market acceptable" for the coin. But I also do not accept mint defects "as minted" to be an acceptable standard either. I do not care to collect low quality mint products nor mint errors as well. "as minted" and "market acceptable" only diminish the quality of the coin, as does weakly struck coins.
I took this to be a joke, roughly translated as "guys, get a room!"
Not a criticism. But I may be in left field on this.
The OP’s coin would grade mint state, regardless of what date it was, because it doesn’t exhibit any wear. To say that it “would probably grade XF40 due to wear on the hair” doesn’t make sense.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Following is a commentary from Roger Burdette regarding strike quality on 1921 Peace Dollars:
While I am not sure that all of Burdette's article is included, his points are valid regarding strike quality on 1921's. To me it is obvious that PCGS has chosen to ignore the difference existing in strike quality with 1921 Peace Dollars. While most have poor strike quality and have received high PCGS grades, those with "original" strike quality have received no credit for their strike quality.
Just because the lower quality strikes were "as minted" does not infer that they are of equality as those "First
Strikes" of that year. To grade 66-67 the strike needs to be "First Strike" quality.
@MFeld I was stating that a 1922 - 1935 coin with that softness of the hair would grade XF-40 due to wear on the hair. I did not say that the OP coin was not MS. The coins 1922-1935 do not have weakness in the hair, and if they did it would likely be due to wear.
My issue is with PCGS grading standards that ignore strike quality on '21 Peace Dollars.
OINK
I was browsing Ebay just to familiarize myself with 1921 Peace dollars, and came across this! The slab looks totally fake, but the cert checks out. Is it real?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/144974435276
Dwayne F. Sessom
Ebay ID: V-Nickel-Coins
It’s certainly your prerogative to take issue with the grading standards used by PCGS. You’re one of many collectors who places more emphasis on strike than the grading companies do.
This was a “Guess The Grade” thread however. So ideally, the guesses are based on perceived PCGS standards, rather than our individual ones.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Yes
AU details cleaned
Successful BST transactions with....Coinslave87, ChrisH821, Walkerguy21D, SanctionII.......................Received "You Suck" award 02/18/23
As far as I can tell, strike is already considered in Peace dollar grading, and from the point of view of strike, I don’t really think the ‘21 is viewed all that differently than the other coins in the series.
Strike issues also plague the 25-S and 28-S (along with many others) and the pop reports reflect that. Compared to Morgans, the “bell curve” of grading is usually a point lower than Morgans, and I think that’s mostly strike-related. For what it’s worth, I think there’s a little “anti-Peace dollar” bias built into professional grading of Peace dollars (when compared to Morgans) but that’s just me.