Options
Define AT (Artificial toning) Chemicals and time.
Clackamas1
Posts: 1,726 ✭✭✭✭✭
What is the definition of AT?
0
Comments
Toning that developed from conditions disapproved of by the person making the determination.
If they look like this, most likely they are AT. These were my old experiments I made for educational AT vs NT displays for a coin club about 15 years ago. They still look the same today, I have them in a little box. The last one on the bottom is the same coin with picture taken every few seconds as it went through one of the processes. Different processes with chemicals/heat used to try and get true reds, greens and yellows. The easiest colors are the ones on the bottom picture. All of these techniques took less than 5 minutes each.
Mr_Spud
Back to “ intent”
Once again that’s the difference and how they determine that in the grading room is beyond my pay grade 😁🙀
🎶 shout shout, let it all out 🎶
"Intent" doesn't work. It's well known there are coin albums that attractively tone coins that get straight graded. Some people used those albums specifically to tone coins while others, who didn't know the albums would cause the coins to tone, used them just for storage. Coins from the first group are intentionally toned and from the second group, unintentional. If intent was a deciding factor, the first group would be rejected while the second would be considered acceptable even though the coins in both groups look the same.
As @jmlanzaf noted above, the coins don't recognize a difference.
This is a good, comprehensive definition. I'll only add that AT also includes butt-ugly toned coins, no matter what conditions were claimed.
BtW to the OP: you might be amazed at how many things in the universe can be defined that way.
It's simply accelerated chemical reactions.
Whether it is aesthetically pleasing or not is the subjective opinion that matters at the end of the day.
TPGs will struggle to identify some reactions. There are some amazing doctors out there.
The marketplace will decide whether it is acceptable, and what value to attach. One person or a team of experts will not be able to determine acceptability.
Right - I am into mining and it is all about chemicals and time plus geology.
‘’The OP put coins on the window of his bathroom where heart, humidity, and vapors from cleaning products would tone them. That's pretty intentional as well as an "artificial" environment for the coins. But it took 25 years, so....?’’
jmlanzaf: no sure “heart” had a big role in that toning exercise. 😉
Wondercoin
@Mr_Spud .... Thank you for that outstanding post and pictures. Clearly this demonstrates the foolishness of paying for colorful tarnish. Why spend money when you can quickly achieve such results at home... for free???? I am amazed at the money wasted on tarnished coins. Cheers, RickO
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
Don't make me repeat myself! 😂
Toning, tarnish, patina, re-toned, re-colored, AT, natural, PVC, etc.... Whether natural, environmental or skillfully created, it's DAMAGE!! The TPG'ers make $$$ by straight grading these things. Whether it's organized crime, the gov't or industry... follow the money!
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
And that, ladies and gentlemen is the best answer to this question that I've ever seen.
If you are around coins long enough, you learn how coins get toning (it IS technically tarnish) through oxidation and reactions to chemicals like sulphur. I think what makes the real determination (but not always) is;
Did the toning come from a "mistake" by leaving it in an album or a cardboard flip for decades? (GOOD!)
OR - was the toning done intentionally? (BAD!!!)
Dwayne F. Sessom
Ebay ID: V-Nickel-Coins
My V Nickel Registry Set - https://pcgs.com/setregistry/alltimeset/71874
“I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description, and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, and the motion picture involved in this case is not that.” - Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart on defining hardcore pornography.
@jmlanzaf- That is to funny!!! LoL!! 😂 🤣
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
Sometimes they tone on both sides, but different colors. The top one is untoned on the obverse but the others...
Nobody knows definitively all the time.
That is the point being made in this thread. You can choose to deny that you have been fooled on accelerated toning but that does not mean it has not happened.
For me artificial toning is in the same collecting category as "midnight mint" errors. Both are made with the purpose of profit. I do not collect either and don't take issue with others enjoying them.
Completed All CAC approved Classic Head $5 set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/mysetregistry/album/344241
CBH Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/everyman-collections/everyman-half-dollars/everyman-capped-bust-half-dollars-1807-1839/album/345572
I think my point was that it’s in the eye of the beholder. Like everything else in coin grading, it’s a subjective judgment call.
I can't recall who the Politician was who made the comment about Pornography but it was something like "I can't define it but I know it when I see it" and that sort of defines Toning and the AT problem.
It seems that the best analysis is achieved from experience.
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety," --- Benjamin Franklin
Founder- Peak Rarities
Website
Instagram
Facebook
When acquiring coins, I like to focus on aesthetics and historical context: it is NT if the character of the toning can be attributed to the manufacture, distribution, or storage of the coins.
Several key points:
(a) I recognize that this requires some elaboration, especially the "storage" aspect
(b) All collectors are free to develop their own definitions and approaches, and
(c) I recognize that "talented" coin doctors can and do tone coins to mimic the attributes suggested by this definition.
@jmlanzaf asked "Why should poor storage increase the value? It's the equivalent of parking your car in salt water and asking a premium for the "natural" pitting."
I did not offer any opinion on value, but am only stating personal preferences. Certainly I'm not suggesting that my personal preferences should be universally held.
I don’t really disagree with the point you’re making but I don’t know if that was the best example. Pitted steel isn’t aesthetically pleasing like vibrant toning on silver.
Founder- Peak Rarities
Website
Instagram
Facebook
By the way, in order to assure that I get my share of guffaws, jeers, and LOLs, let me add a further suggestion.
With regard to colorful toning only: if the visceral reaction I get in looking at the coin is roughly similar to what I feel when standing in front of a Chagall or certain Rothkos, I believe it is NT and (to me) is worth a significant premium.
I would argue the opposite. It takes no effort to put something on a window sill for 25 years. It is the opposite of heart. I am dang sure there are like ~40 coins I forgot about in the old home that I sold. Some day they will be found, it may be a century from now - or longer. The only reason it is still on a window sill is because we sold the home. It did spend the better part of a decade in our new home. No heart involved - roll the dice. The only reason I sent it in is because I don't think I have much time left and none of my kids nor my wife can appreciate it.
certain Rothkos,
OK I get Chagal -Rothkos not so much.
Here is the thing - ALL silver coins will tone over time, heck so do gold coins - you can spot them from across the room, they just do. When is it AT? I have been trying to repair old cleanings by leaving them out in the open and after nearly 3 decades some of the coins are still 'cleaned'. In 500 years are they market acceptable? Why was the coin cleaned - probably because of toning? You can fix over time a dip - never repair a brillow coin unless you want to delete detail and keep it in you pocket. IMO if it looks original and commensurate for the period it is not AT. IMO AT is a rapid, maybe minutes process, if it takes half of your life - not AT. Your intent is not important - the process is and you can't fake (AFAIK) toning that takes decades.
OK I don't get it. Is that an insult or did I just not get a point? BTW - my daughter is a wonderful artist and has paintings of rust steel that are pretty awesome. Beauty is not what you expect to see, you have to step back and see what you see. there is beauty in most things. One of the top things I tell all my employees is there is a silver lining - you just have to find it. Take a negative look at things you will find a negative answer/solution.
Rick is famous for way more than that - we are just not going to talk about it. /s Rick is a decent person I am just joking.
"Market acceptable" just means "what most people like" and as far as the "sulphur was added to the canvas bags to repel mice" story, in what universe are mice attracted to silver dollars?
Yeah I've heard the story a thousand times too, but it's always been hearsay. Is there a primary source?
Meanwhile, I'll buy beautiful coins if I like them. Verisimilitude does factor in, but beyond that I'm sort of agnostic. The TPGs have been wrong countless times.
I wasn't quoting you. I've heard the story a thousand times, I said. Now I see you mentioned "vermin" and frankly I don't see what the big deal is so I'll just bow out of the conversation.
FWIW, I also can't imagine what insects are doing in bank vaults either, but maybe there are some who enjoy munching on canvas.
If you're a gardener, sulfur powder is used to kill fungus and other bacteria. I can see why mints wanted to keep the coins from developing all that black mold on coins, not for vermin or insects. Instead created some nice toning as well as not so great.
Really - So a cleaned coin given enough time can never be OK? What if it was 200 years in air, 1000 years a century buried. It is AT because the purpose was to hide the cleaning. Or is it AT? IMO it is at if it occurs in day/weeks. If it take years, even if the intent was to change it not AT.
Since the NT v. AT debate has surfaced in this thread I will chime in.
If "intent" is the factor in determining if a coin is NT or AT, i have a the following bright line definition (which is easy to state but is not easy to apply).
Any toned coin which has been not been touched by humans (either directly, or indirectly through coming into contact with any matter whose existence came about through human intervention) at any time since it was struck has Natural Toning. All other toned coins have Artificial Toning.
The above bright line works simply by removing humans from the situation, for without humans there is no "intent".
Further the same bright line can be used to determine which untoned coins are Natural ("NUT") and which untoned coins are Artificial ("AUT").
I'm amazed that you never get tired of sharing your disdain for toning.
@jerseycat101... There is no limit to sharing or my disdain....
Much as so many others have no limits to their gushing and swooning over tarnish. Cheers, RickO