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PCGS Auction records without Great Collection results?
retirednow
Posts: 475 ✭✭✭✭✭
I wonder why PCGS stopped listing auction results of sold lots at GC. It looked like they did link in 2014 but since has stopped. The PCGS auction archived is a very comprehensive listing and I find it very easy to use.
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I wondered the same thing.
Things change and sometimes people just don't have a need to know!
As I recall, this was a choice of GC not PCGS. GC does not release their data to others.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=2YNufnS_kf4 - Mama I'm coming home ...................................................................................................................................................................... RLJ 1958 - 2023
A January post from @JohnF (publisher of the Grey Sheet) on the CAC board may shed some light regarding obtaining data sets:
@ianrussell
Yep they have previously stated that they prefer people to go to the GC website and explore for themselves (probably with the idea that once you are on the website, you are more likely to bid/buy as opposed to just looking at the data from PCGS and never visiting GC).
Thanks for the background and I think I understand the theme ... I do use the GC auction archive as well, however, it would be nice it was all in one search engine as the PCGS site offers.
Oh well ...
This makes a ton of sense. Why send the traffic to PCGS when you can drive some extra eyeballs to your auction site.
I believe that viewing the auction data also requires that you open an account with GC, which further affirms the above logic.
It's a lot harder to resell a coin for a nice profit when the amount it just sold for shows up in coinfacts lol. Not saying that's the reason, but from my perspective, I do appreciate that at least one AH stays off the radar in that regard.
Professional Numismatist. "It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
That is true too. It used to be that you did not need an account to view the info but that changed in the last year or two (which makes sense as having an account further increases the chances of someone bidding/buying as you mentioned).
Why do I feel that if Heritage or ebay were the ones withholding data that the "understanding" would be different?
Why? Probably because GC charges some of the industry’s lowest fees and provides a higher level of service (vs EBay). I guess they have lots of loyal customers.
This is not completely accurate. With a GC account an when logged in the auction prices show up on the search page. However, you do not have to be logged in and can still see the auction prices if you click the individual action and go to the specific auction page. Not as simple but can see them. If an auction is ongoing on Sunday, then you need to be logged in.
I agree, I think there would be complaints if HA or others did this. It also impacts the price guides ability to give best results. Imagine if all the auction companies did not release their data. Then the price guides would need to go to each individual auction company to get the data and then come up with a price guide number but without any auction archive as that would be at each auction company. I don't know that pcgs, ngc and others would do this for free as it would be a lot more work. A system like GC of not sharing impacts most in a negative way and if all did it, then guides and result reporting would be much different. I appreciate HA, Stacks, DL, Legend and others sharing their information so that price guides and auction records like those at PCGS and NGC or others are available to use and why I use GC last and only if needed when looking for results, pictures or other.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=2YNufnS_kf4 - Mama I'm coming home ...................................................................................................................................................................... RLJ 1958 - 2023
You can see certain things without being logged in and links to ended auctions display the price. However, you can’t use the search for ended items without being logged in (but you used to be able to do that at one point before it changed).
@U1chicago
We must be talking about two different things / searches / ways to search but I can't figure out what it is. So here is what I am talking about. I go to auction archives and get to the Morgan dollars. Then I did a search for 1882 to 1883 and with key word OGH. The system returns the below (note this is a first page screen shot and the other information is below it when scrolled for). I am not logged in so I can not see the prices on this page and need to then click the individual auction result.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=2YNufnS_kf4 - Mama I'm coming home ...................................................................................................................................................................... RLJ 1958 - 2023
Because it is inconvenient to the collectors. GC is fine, However there is borderline cultish devotion to them. Why should Heritage be held to a different standard when it comes to availability of their data?
[And Ebay is much cheaper for inexpensive coins. Less than half the cost of GC.]
I see that way works without logging in. I was referring to being on the first page, entering what you are looking for in the search box, and then clicking “completed items” on the left side. That asks you to login before returning the results of what you were searching for.
You could also argue that supplying the data sends traffic to your website. When looking at PCGS APRs, I often click on the link and get directed to the website of the auction house to look at further detail.
@U1chicago
Thanks, as I said we must be talking two different things or ways to search. Now I have it figured out.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=2YNufnS_kf4 - Mama I'm coming home ...................................................................................................................................................................... RLJ 1958 - 2023
As you can see above, auction data is available at GC. But as someone stated, if I list a coin that routinely sells for $1000 and the last sale was only $500 and bidders know that; they will not bid to the $1000 level. So some "transparency" can be misunderstood and affect the hammer price which makes the auction house less money...
"borderline cultish devotion to them"? any examples? I know I like them because they have low fees, wide range of coins, and excellent customer service. Not sure if that makes me a "cult member" but I think they do an excellent job.
borderline cultish devotion , dang that makes me tingle all over 😏 😵💫🥴
If you're talking about CAC, you have a lot of company here.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
Not unlike your devotion to ebay
Could you cite an example where I defended eBay for something that I complained about for another marketplace?
I tend to defend all the corporations, in case you haven't noticed.
I don't know whether it's GC's choice or not but I can certainly understand it if so. If an auction record is fairly recent and the same coin comes up again, that generally is more likely to set the ceiling of the coin, not the floor. It's probably overall bad for the auction house and for the consigner.
Yes, as others have stated above, we do have our complete auction archive available on our website (over 1.08 million records and counting), and it's currently used by many collectors and dealers on a daily basis.
I took the stance very early on at GC not to have auction results on third party websites, as I believe it's in our best interest to build GC's website traffic. That being said, there are advantages with having the listings everywhere for GC as well. So far, the disadvantages were enough to persuade me to keep it only on the GC website. We may revisit in the new year.
Owner/Founder GreatCollections
GreatCollections Coin Auctions - Certified Coin Auctions Every Week - Rare Coins & Coin Values
That is so sad. The other auction companies release their data so that thing such as auction archives and price guides can be developed for the coin collecting community. If all the other auction companies only thought of their own business and web traffic and not of the collecting community and did not release their data, then there would be no auction archives (would have to go to each individual auction site) and most price guides may also disappear due to difficulty to obtain data and maintain an accurate price guide.. But each company must make their own decision to think only of their own website traffic or the overall collecting community. I am glad the other auction companies see it differently.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=2YNufnS_kf4 - Mama I'm coming home ...................................................................................................................................................................... RLJ 1958 - 2023
I know the several Price Guides use our auction archives on our website to assist them with pricing. And we do make it available at no charge.
Owner/Founder GreatCollections
GreatCollections Coin Auctions - Certified Coin Auctions Every Week - Rare Coins & Coin Values
Sure it is free if you go to GC to get the information. Other auction companies make it available so it can be used in other auction archives that the OP was asking about. If all the auction companies did as GC there would be no general auction archives and the collectors and others would need to go to each individual auction company to get the free auction information. It is more difficult to obtain the information for pricing if it must be done by going to each individual auction site to that the information. Again thanks to the auction companies that do make their information available for use in this way.
See Catberts post from CAC forum from John F about it below:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=2YNufnS_kf4 - Mama I'm coming home ...................................................................................................................................................................... RLJ 1958 - 2023
I would like to see GC prices realized available in other company’s auctions, and in the PCGS price guide.
‘’Yes, as others have stated above, we do have our complete auction archive available on our website (over 1.08 million records and counting), and it's currently used by many collectors and dealers on a daily basis.’’
Please correct me if I am wrong, but not every single auction record ends up in the GC complete auction archive. And there might be good reason for an auction record to not find itself there. There are advantages to controlling information. The control is lost once you allow a third party to post everything.
Just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin.
Unless my recollection is poor or I was dreaming it, GC auction results were in PCGS Coinfacts for several years and as recently as this year. So was this an exception to your stance?
GC can get amazing prices for top-pop CN coins but people who rely solely on PCGS CoinFacts auction prices realized wouldn't know it and may wonder, "Why do you want so much for your coin?". Because the coin has brought this price in the marketplace (GC). Be nice to see GC auction results included in CoinFacts.
All auctions appear in our archive within seconds of auctions ending each Sunday. Rarely does something have to be removed. In the past 90 days with an estimated 35,000 items added to our archive, perhaps only 34,994 are listed.
You are right, that with third parties displaying data, we can't control how they display the data. I wasn't really worried about that aspect until you brought it up.
We've also been approached by competitors wanting our data (in fact, one already tried to download our data, before realizing they created a liability for themselves). Once we share with some third parties, it's much easier for additional third parties to gain access to it.
Owner/Founder GreatCollections
GreatCollections Coin Auctions - Certified Coin Auctions Every Week - Rare Coins & Coin Values
Very early on we released selected data with PCGS. Nothing has been released to third parties in more than 8 years.
Owner/Founder GreatCollections
GreatCollections Coin Auctions - Certified Coin Auctions Every Week - Rare Coins & Coin Values
OK, so you keep your auction data to yourself but you certainly don't mind when your auction listings show up in Coinfacts and generate bids and sales. Can't tell you how many coins I've bought and discovered on GC as a result of the Coinfacts links, but it's quite a few and in the 5 figures. Seems like you enjoy the added exposure for your auctions (what company wouldn't) but you're not willing to exchange a little data in return. Seems a little selfish and one-sided to me. But hey, it's your data.
If I may say so, the auction archives on GC are tedious and cumbersome to use and add an extra layer of effort to any coin research I do. As a result, I rarely use GC for this purpose as I just don't need or want to expend that much time and effort. I'd be surprised if that wasn't the case for most PCGS collectors.
Edited to add: Why not consider a compromise? Maybe share sales data older than x months or a year?
No, definitely not keeping it to myself. It's available for anyone who wants to see it on our website.
Unfortunately, that is not sharing data - that is paid advertising. Just like what third parties would earn in advertising revenue from having our archives on their site(s). So I guess it's one-sided from that standpoint.
Owner/Founder GreatCollections
GreatCollections Coin Auctions - Certified Coin Auctions Every Week - Rare Coins & Coin Values
I want to say that I believe that having GC records available on the pcgs auction archives would be a good improvement.
John F in his statement that is posted above said:
I encourage readers of this forum to encourage him on this topic as well.
While the topic was not auction archives the point of supplying the data was. I guess that is what I am trying to do - get the GC data into the pcgs auction archive to have an even better one.
I sometimes read where GC is getting these big results. If that showed up in the pcgs auction archives, then when searching one would see a big number and look to see where that came from - GC. Check that out - click. And another one. Even without that there are a lot of eyeballs there. Don't know but maybe GC could supply a limited amount of data as I don't know that more data points are needed on such items as a generic Morgan in common grades.
As I stated this is what I generally use. I do search HA for some items sometimes or if looking for examples / pictures. I use them because I know their system fairly well and in appreciation for information supplied.
Once again I want to say thanks to the auction companies that do supply data so that we can have what I believe is a good source of auction information. Oh and I keep forgetting thanks to pcgs for generating such a system for us to use.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=2YNufnS_kf4 - Mama I'm coming home ...................................................................................................................................................................... RLJ 1958 - 2023
Ah, ok. I guess I am recalling GC results from 2014 and prior which still show up for more thinly traded coins. Good to know, I will just need to take the additional step of going to GC archives if I need additional price data.
Ian,
Let me first say, you have did a great job building your company. In doing so, you get to make the decisions, and I understand your reasons. I use your auction history often, and to me, it appear well designed and very useful. For what’s worth, I will share my thoughts. I think in the past eight years, GC have come a long way. In watching your actions and results, there several auction records that are achieved in GC Auctions that are not appearing in PCGS Auction History, condition census reports and etc. I don’t know the logics behind sharing auction data, but if it was possible to share your history for condition census coins only, then GC success with these coins would be more visible. With your model, sharing the success of the high ends coins maybe not equate into business success. I think it would, but you know better than me. Sometimes, I see the big auctions houses have the auction records proudly posted in reports, I know that are incorrect, because GC has the record. Just my thoughts, but keep working hard, you got things going.
My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
I know it sounds naive or foolish and to my detriment, but to me, because I often don't have the time and energy to look at multiple sources, if it's not in the PCGS Auction history it didn't happen.
‘’Once we share with some third parties, it's much easier for additional third parties to gain access to it. Ian”
Ian. Very good point I had not thought about. That would need to be clearly addressed in any licensing agreement. If I were running GC Asia (your newest division) I would do EXACTLY what you are doing right now. Your prices realized is worth “mucho bucks” as a stand-alone pricing tool. I would not allow anyone else to use that information without paying the “going rate”.
Just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin
For everyone mentioning the difficulty of searching, I'm not sure why that is? Entering what you want (i.e. "1881-S Morgan PCGS MS-63") is simple enough via the search box and then selecting the completed items option on the side. The Heritage and Stacks search is fairly simple too. The Legend search is fine too but can be more glitchy (I search for a Morgan and get Peace dollars and some other coins mixed in-not a big issue though). Those four should pretty much cover any US coin that you would want to find. And going to the websites of each is often the more accurate way as some items don't copy over into the PCGS auction records properly (more of an issue with eBay listings but happens with the auction houses too).
As far as sharing info, I see why some want it and it would be convenient. But it just seems to be a vocal minority that really wants it. The lack of sharing has not stopped GC and they seem to be doing as well as ever. If it made business sense, they would switch. Since it appears to not be a major issue (and the data has more value to GC by being kept in house), I don't think a change will be coming in the near future.
You can't say if it made business sense they would switch. Lots of businesses have many bad or poor policies and practices and make bad decisions. I don't know if it would be better or worse for GC. In the end they can only speculate about the impact. You could also say that sharing data doesn't seem to be hurting any of the other auction houses or they would stop sharing. In general, it usually pays to be more open and giving than not. After all, it is a service to the community that is your customer base.
For rare coins, buyers go where the coins are period. For common coins, buyers go where the deals are which you usually want less competition from other buyers and more competition among sellers. Sellers go where they think they will net the most because of how their coins meet the perceived buyer pools of each venue. In the end it's about perceptions whether accurate or not. The more visible a company is, the easier it will be for customers to build their perceptions.
When GC says it makes business sense and their business keeps growing, it’s safe to say they have a good grasp on the situation. If their business was declining, it would be a different discussion but it has only grown and this policy has been around since around 2014. Perception can be reality, especially to a vocal minority. However, actual results are the true reality. And it’s hard to argue against the success.
‘’I want to say that I believe that having GC records available on the pcgs auction archives would be a good improvement.
John F in his statement that is posted above said:
I encourage readers of this forum to encourage him on this topic as well.
While the topic was not auction archives the point of supplying the data was. I guess that is what I am trying to do - get the GC data into the pcgs auction archive to have an even better one.’’
Look- I have no “horse in this race”. I support both companies who do a great job at what they each do.
My unbiased opinion - I just got my invoice for the next year of the Greysheet. The price increased sharply on a % basis as compared to what I paid last year. No complaints - they have every right to raise the price. I’ll decide at the end of this month if I renew at the new higher price or wait for a sale that might, or might not, come towards year end. Of course, I have the money to pay for the increase if I choose to go that way.
That said - I have no idea what John F was asking readers of this forum to encourage Ian about (if in fact he even was)? Readers of this forum could just as easily ask the Greysheet to post their pricing information free on this forum - yes? Shouldn’t we all be happy that Ian is currently charging us $0 to look at about 1,000,000 sales prices? If he can raise some advertising bucks in the process, why not! Why give the information away for free when other companies are either charging for the information or taking in money on advertising revenue to offer up the information?
Just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin
While I wish GC would allow the results to be published in the records, I do take the time to look at their sale prices as part of my price research; some of the coins I'm looking for seem to, on average, sell for more or less than the published records, and that's worth the few minutes it takes to do a second search.
I'll agree that GC understands the situation but whether or not they "grasp it" is another issue. It's all speculation, just like the real estate agent deciding if putting his face and number on the bus stop will lead to more listings. Maybe it works maybe it doesn't maybe it's break-even. The fact that GC has been successful doesn't mean that they wouldn't or couldn't have been more successful or had higher sales if their auction results were more visible. More visibility generally means more business. And there's always the possibility that they don't want more business because they have all they can handle as it is. Not everyone wants to run a huge enterprise.
And there's always the possibility you're incorrect too, right?
Of course, we're growing, and continue to spend a fortune on marketing to get more consignments and more bidders. Some very big plans for GC next year.
Owner/Founder GreatCollections
GreatCollections Coin Auctions - Certified Coin Auctions Every Week - Rare Coins & Coin Values