It will be interesting to see how the price guides list these labels.
I would think these design changes and the popularity of the series would compel the Mint to serial number each individual coin.
If they think these last and first issues are that significant then they should make the effort to authenticate with physical identification.
A paper label attributed to the coin among many thousands of identical specimens is the minimum amount of effort and diminishes the perceived value IMO.
No Joe
I have no idea why you are making this comparison.
Never mentioned 200,000 ase’s
Never mentioned 1804 dollar.
I said 10 complete ase proof sets 84- 22 in 70 is preferable to one ase labeled first or last.
1804 is not even close to a comparison. The 1804 is way way better.
I’m sure you understand? 😉🦫🙀
@pcgscacgold said:
Say what you want but what if you could own the 1st, 2nd, 3rd Saint or Walker or SLQ or CHB minted. There is a lot of money out there.
You can buy the first struck 1916 SLQ right now for $125,000. DFW coins & jewelry has it available. Graded pcgs 58. Pretty awesome coin.
United States Mint American Eagle At Dusk and At Dawn 35th Anniversary Auction…
NGC graded 1,000 coins.
PCGS graded 1,000 coins.
In My opinion the best numeric coins were the closest to the Last of the Type 1 coins and the closest to the First Type 2 coins.
NGC got ALL 1,000 of the best numeric coins.
PCGS got ALL 1,000 of the worst numeric coins.
ALL 1,000 NGC coins were auctioned before the First PCGS coin was auctioned.
NGC got the Last 500 (250 ASE and 250 AGE) coins minted of the Type 1.
NGC got the First 500 (250 ASE and 250 AGE) coins minted of the Type 2.
PCGS got 251st-500th to the Last Type 1 coins (250 ASE and 250 AGE).
PCGS got 251st-500th of the First Type 2 coins (250 ASE and 250 AGE).
The only area where NGC and PCGS went “head up” was in the 4 coin sets.
NGC graded 150 4 coin sets (Type 1 ASE and AGE and Type 2 ASE and AGE) in the same exact sequence such as the very First 4 coin set that NGC got that was the 101st to the Last Type 1 coin struck in both ASE and AGE and the 101st Type 2 coin struck in both ASE and AGE.
PCGS graded 250 4 coin sets (Type 1 ASE and AGE and Type 2 ASE and AGE) in the same exact sequence such as the very First lot that PCGS got that was 251st to the Last Type 1 coin struck in both ASE and AGE and the 251st Type 2 coin struck in both ASE and AGE.
NGC graded 150 4 coin sets and PCGS graded 250 4 coin sets.
NGC graded a Total of 7 sets out of 150 sets (4.7%) that All 4 coins were MS70.
NGC average price for those 7 MS70 sets was $18,928.57.
PCGS graded a Total of 6 sets out of 250 sets (2.4%) that All 4 coins were MS70.
PCGS average price for those 6 MS70 sets was $20,083.33…
@cagcrisp, Those results are very interesting, thanks. Very few complete 70 sets; less than 1 in 20 NGC, or 1 of 40 with PCGS.
x
I can offer to sell my four 2021 PCGS 70 single examples of the 2,876th first and 4,015th last gold eagles, and the 11,592nd, and 20,075th to last silver eagles to anyone who is really into these for only $10,000. Less than half the average for PCGS 70 sets of 4 at auction!
Fine print: My provenance and actual numbered sequences mentioned are highly questionable, but the price is right, and they are all 70's! Note the labels will not have the above specific numbers on them, they are just some guesses. Please buy my coins which are just as good, but they don't have the special dawn and dusk labels. More like doom and gloom.
This reminds me of a "Mad Magazine" article I saw when I was in high school. The subject was "Commemorative Stamps that You Will Never See." I remember that one of the stamps was "The Death of the Last Do-Do Bird" with some tailfeathers sticking up in the air behind a log.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@Glen2022 said:
It will be interesting to see what the prices will be in 5 or 10 years.
Not all about price. One thing that will be true. In 10 years these will still be the first and last ones minted. I understand people complaining about label collecting but this is very different. These were documented coins and cool products.
A little too pricey for my checkbook but it would have been neat to have one of the first 10 Gold Eagles struck.
@Glen2022 said:
It will be interesting to see what the prices will be in 5 or 10 years.
Not all about price. One thing that will be true. In 10 years these will still be the first and last ones minted. I understand people complaining about label collecting but this is very different. These were documented coins and cool products.
A little too pricey for my checkbook but it would have been neat to have one of the first 10 Gold Eagles struck.
Makes you wonder how many collectors are really collectors and not speculators.
Based on this amazing result, I suppose the Mint's first 500 2023's of anything and everything, with the right sequenced labels, already graded, could be worth some serious money at auction.
Imagine the demand for the first 500 2023 Peace dollars proofs ever struck in 70, etc. The 1,945-mintage gold privy went way up in the aftermarket, and only a lucky few got them at mint price. What would have happened if those were all auctioned?
Mind boggling when you start to imagine it and how it will affect the hobby.
@Goldminers said:
Based on this amazing result, I suppose the Mint's first 500 2023's of anything and everything, with the right sequenced labels, already graded, could be worth some serious money at auction.
Imagine the demand for the first 500 2023 Peace dollars proofs ever struck in 70, etc. The 1,945-mintage gold privy went way up in the aftermarket, and only a lucky few got them at mint price. What would have happened if those were all auctioned?
Mind boggling when you start to imagine it and how it will affect the hobby.
AND THE NATIONAL DEBT. I assume that a significant portion of the sales price, after grading and auction expenses goes to the mint. In reality, its just a drop in the bucket but every drop helps.
@jmlanzaf said:
It really makes me wonder how many people would stop collecting if they new that 25 years from now coin prices would be the same or lower.
They wouldn't stop because they think they'll still be able to pick winners. The whining 25 years from now would be spectacular, however.
@Goldminers said:
Based on this amazing result, I suppose the Mint's first 500 2023's of anything and everything, with the right sequenced labels, already graded, could be worth some serious money at auction.
Imagine the demand for the first 500 2023 Peace dollars proofs ever struck in 70, etc. The 1,945-mintage gold privy went way up in the aftermarket, and only a lucky few got them at mint price. What would have happened if those were all auctioned?
Mind boggling when you start to imagine it and how it will affect the hobby.
If they were smart, this is EXACTLY what they would do with extremely limited mintages, like the gold privy, rather than running a lottery where bots have a huge advantage. The market sets the ultimate value, so why not allow taxpayers to capture it via auction rather than having a select few reap a windfall?
It won't affect the hobby at all since, by definition, it would only apply to a select few highly desirable, low mintage items. The market already establishes the value. The only difference is whether the mint gives the stuff away to whoever is lucky enough to break through on the website, or whether they sell it for full value as set in an open auction.
@Goldminers said:
Did the winning bidder have the same idea as the person that bought the very first 2014 gold Kennedy at ANA for $100,000?
I held off at the 5K prices at the Chicago show when these were released in 2014 and bought three 70 fs less than a year later for the 5K with change left over. I believe that is reason enough to be in no hurry with the modern issues as they are bullion coins after all.
@291fifth said:
Is this what US coin collecting has become?
For fools with lots of money, like the 2014 Gold Kennedy fiasco.
You could say that about all coins bought for over face/ bullion value.
Hmmm, suggesting these are analogous to the 1933 Double Eagle seems a tad extreme
True! These are, however, analogous to any other coin that has a premium attached to it due to provenance or pedigree. The fact that they are modern does not make this any less so. The provenance here is special because it comes directly from the US government, as opposed to a random telemarketer, and it stems from when the coins were actually struck rather than when they were sold.
Everyone here is entitled to an opinion, but the fact that not 1, not 2, not 100 and not 200, but 700 lots, comprising 2,000 coins, were sold by an internationally recognized auction house suggests that anyone who thinks that these are not worth a substantial premium to generic graded bullion coins is expressing a personal opinion and is simply in denial as to what the market is saying. $4.6 million represents a very substantial $2.9 million premium over the $1.7 million bullion value as of today, and the very few coins at the top don't even skew this number that much.
Stacks-Bowers is not HSN, and the people who spent $4.6 million on these are not the same people buying colorized quarters from Mike Mezack. The value of anything, from classic commemoratives, 1995-W ASEs, and these, can certainly fluctuate over time. But trashing these because the value comes from a label is no more or less legit than dismissing the provenance of any other collectible.
Objectively of less historical significance and desirability than many other examples of label provenance.
For instance, are we going to equate a label provenance of a Garrett or Eliasberg single high grade coin with the label provenance of a modern Mint product of which there are thousands of identical specimens?
They are obviously selling at a premium, but they are not analogous to all label provenance.
@TwoSides2aCoin said:
Expensive leftovers and no meat on the bone
I think that is the whole point. In the past, the mint created a feeding frenzy on its website with extremely limited editions, allowing a select lucky few to profit before the market set the value.
This time, the mint stripped the bone of its meat before releasing the coins into the market. The whole point of the auction was to allow the mint to capture the premium for itself. If the Coin Vault guys are going to be able to flip the $7,500 sets for $15,000+, I guess more power to them, but the idea behind the auction was to not leave any meat on the bone.
@fathom said:
Objectively of less historical significance and desirability than many other examples of label provenance.
For instance, are we going to equate a label provenance of a Garrett or Eliasberg single high grade coin with the label provenance of a modern Mint product of which there are thousands of identical specimens?
They are obviously selling at a premium, but they are not analogous to all label provenance.
And yet Eliasberg coins may only be notable because one arbitrary man owned them. There is in the other hand, only one First Struck. Are you saying you wouldn't pay extra for the 1st struck 1958 Lincoln?
Why do GSA dollars sell for a premium even over other CC dollars? They are just unwanted bullion coins left over and forgotten in government vaults.
You don't have to care about these coins or GSA dollars. That is, however, simply a personal preference. Nothing more.
If you are a numismatist, Eliasberg is notable for assembling a complete collection of mostly higher grade coins some directly from the Mint, extreme rarities, unique acquisitions, etc. Not an arbitrary collector.
GSA dollars went from the bag to the sorting tray to the holder. Probably as mint state as you can get. How many cc dollars have been dipped?
Yes, it is my personal preference to collect a significant coin with a provenance that is relevant to numismatic history. Not a label attached to thousands of identical coins minted in the last year.
I am seriously considering not voting for you as Ombudsman of the message board for '23.
Yes, a ridiculous comparison frankly. Eliasberg coins were quite superior usually, and not many can or could match them. These "label rarities" are just fine for those that love them or profit from them, not for all most certainly.
Love that Milled British (1830-1960) Well, just Love coins, period.
If these were actually edge numbered, like the Mint did on many past medals, I would have bid for one, because then they would be truly different modern coin varieties.
Future edge numbers or number sequence stamped privy's on the Mint's most limited items would cause a bit of extra demand.
@7Jaguars said:
Yes, a ridiculous comparison frankly. Eliasberg coins were quite superior usually, and not many can or could match them. These "label rarities" are just fine for those that love them or profit from them, not for all most certainly.
There are many Eliasberg extras out there that were not superior but were Eliasberg. Same with Pittman.
Not a refute as the majority are special pieces DATE BY DATE and not some bogus numbers attached to otherwise identical coins.
Love that Milled British (1830-1960) Well, just Love coins, period.
Comments
It will be interesting to see how the price guides list these labels.
I would think these design changes and the popularity of the series would compel the Mint to serial number each individual coin.
If they think these last and first issues are that significant then they should make the effort to authenticate with physical identification.
A paper label attributed to the coin among many thousands of identical specimens is the minimum amount of effort and diminishes the perceived value IMO.
No Joe
I have no idea why you are making this comparison.
Never mentioned 200,000 ase’s
Never mentioned 1804 dollar.
I said 10 complete ase proof sets 84- 22 in 70 is preferable to one ase labeled first or last.
1804 is not even close to a comparison. The 1804 is way way better.
I’m sure you understand? 😉🦫🙀
🎶 shout shout, let it all out 🎶
You can buy the first struck 1916 SLQ right now for $125,000. DFW coins & jewelry has it available. Graded pcgs 58. Pretty awesome coin.
United States Mint American Eagle At Dusk and At Dawn 35th Anniversary Auction…
NGC graded 1,000 coins.
PCGS graded 1,000 coins.
In My opinion the best numeric coins were the closest to the Last of the Type 1 coins and the closest to the First Type 2 coins.
NGC got ALL 1,000 of the best numeric coins.
PCGS got ALL 1,000 of the worst numeric coins.
ALL 1,000 NGC coins were auctioned before the First PCGS coin was auctioned.
NGC got the Last 500 (250 ASE and 250 AGE) coins minted of the Type 1.
NGC got the First 500 (250 ASE and 250 AGE) coins minted of the Type 2.
PCGS got 251st-500th to the Last Type 1 coins (250 ASE and 250 AGE).
PCGS got 251st-500th of the First Type 2 coins (250 ASE and 250 AGE).
The only area where NGC and PCGS went “head up” was in the 4 coin sets.
NGC graded 150 4 coin sets (Type 1 ASE and AGE and Type 2 ASE and AGE) in the same exact sequence such as the very First 4 coin set that NGC got that was the 101st to the Last Type 1 coin struck in both ASE and AGE and the 101st Type 2 coin struck in both ASE and AGE.
PCGS graded 250 4 coin sets (Type 1 ASE and AGE and Type 2 ASE and AGE) in the same exact sequence such as the very First lot that PCGS got that was 251st to the Last Type 1 coin struck in both ASE and AGE and the 251st Type 2 coin struck in both ASE and AGE.
NGC graded 150 4 coin sets and PCGS graded 250 4 coin sets.
NGC graded a Total of 7 sets out of 150 sets (4.7%) that All 4 coins were MS70.
NGC average price for those 7 MS70 sets was $18,928.57.
PCGS graded a Total of 6 sets out of 250 sets (2.4%) that All 4 coins were MS70.
PCGS average price for those 6 MS70 sets was $20,083.33…
cagcrisp, thanks for the summary. Did you get a dollar total for the entire auction?
@cagcrisp, Those results are very interesting, thanks. Very few complete 70 sets; less than 1 in 20 NGC, or 1 of 40 with PCGS.
x
I can offer to sell my four 2021 PCGS 70 single examples of the 2,876th first and 4,015th last gold eagles, and the 11,592nd, and 20,075th to last silver eagles to anyone who is really into these for only $10,000. Less than half the average for PCGS 70 sets of 4 at auction!
Fine print: My provenance and actual numbered sequences mentioned are highly questionable, but the price is right, and they are all 70's! Note the labels will not have the above specific numbers on them, they are just some guesses. Please buy my coins which are just as good, but they don't have the special dawn and dusk labels. More like doom and gloom.
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
This was a lot of fun to watch play out. I hope the mint considers doing this with other issues that go to new designs.
Completed All CAC approved Classic Head $5 set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/mysetregistry/album/344241
CBH Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/everyman-collections/everyman-half-dollars/everyman-capped-bust-half-dollars-1807-1839/album/345572
One more gimmick to get your money.
This reminds me of a "Mad Magazine" article I saw when I was in high school. The subject was "Commemorative Stamps that You Will Never See." I remember that one of the stamps was "The Death of the Last Do-Do Bird" with some tailfeathers sticking up in the air behind a log.
It will be interesting to see what the prices will be in 5 or 10 years.
Not all about price. One thing that will be true. In 10 years these will still be the first and last ones minted. I understand people complaining about label collecting but this is very different. These were documented coins and cool products.
A little too pricey for my checkbook but it would have been neat to have one of the first 10 Gold Eagles struck.
Completed All CAC approved Classic Head $5 set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/mysetregistry/album/344241
CBH Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/everyman-collections/everyman-half-dollars/everyman-capped-bust-half-dollars-1807-1839/album/345572
🎶 shout shout, let it all out 🎶
Based on this amazing result, I suppose the Mint's first 500 2023's of anything and everything, with the right sequenced labels, already graded, could be worth some serious money at auction.
Imagine the demand for the first 500 2023 Peace dollars proofs ever struck in 70, etc. The 1,945-mintage gold privy went way up in the aftermarket, and only a lucky few got them at mint price. What would have happened if those were all auctioned?
Mind boggling when you start to imagine it and how it will affect the hobby.
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
AND THE NATIONAL DEBT. I assume that a significant portion of the sales price, after grading and auction expenses goes to the mint. In reality, its just a drop in the bucket but every drop helps.
They wouldn't stop because they think they'll still be able to pick winners. The whining 25 years from now would be spectacular, however.
Too gimmicky for me. Just repackaging coins that were available last year.
If they were smart, this is EXACTLY what they would do with extremely limited mintages, like the gold privy, rather than running a lottery where bots have a huge advantage. The market sets the ultimate value, so why not allow taxpayers to capture it via auction rather than having a select few reap a windfall?
It won't affect the hobby at all since, by definition, it would only apply to a select few highly desirable, low mintage items. The market already establishes the value. The only difference is whether the mint gives the stuff away to whoever is lucky enough to break through on the website, or whether they sell it for full value as set in an open auction.
I got $4,616,700.00 for the total of the "sold" prices.
Reference
Edited to Add:
SBG has confirmed this figure.
Source: https://stacksbowers.com/auctions/catalog-library/
References:
Realized Prices (Session 15 starts on page #28)
Catalog
Thanks, MetroD! An amazing haul for the U.S. Mint!
I held off at the 5K prices at the Chicago show when these were released in 2014 and bought three 70 fs less than a year later for the 5K with change left over. I believe that is reason enough to be in no hurry with the modern issues as they are bullion coins after all.
That took some time. Good work…
For fools with lots of money, like the 2014 Gold Kennedy fiasco.
Hmmm, suggesting these are analogous to the 1933 Double Eagle seems a tad extreme
So did your analysis.
Thanks for posting it.
True! These are, however, analogous to any other coin that has a premium attached to it due to provenance or pedigree. The fact that they are modern does not make this any less so. The provenance here is special because it comes directly from the US government, as opposed to a random telemarketer, and it stems from when the coins were actually struck rather than when they were sold.
Everyone here is entitled to an opinion, but the fact that not 1, not 2, not 100 and not 200, but 700 lots, comprising 2,000 coins, were sold by an internationally recognized auction house suggests that anyone who thinks that these are not worth a substantial premium to generic graded bullion coins is expressing a personal opinion and is simply in denial as to what the market is saying. $4.6 million represents a very substantial $2.9 million premium over the $1.7 million bullion value as of today, and the very few coins at the top don't even skew this number that much.
Stacks-Bowers is not HSN, and the people who spent $4.6 million on these are not the same people buying colorized quarters from Mike Mezack. The value of anything, from classic commemoratives, 1995-W ASEs, and these, can certainly fluctuate over time. But trashing these because the value comes from a label is no more or less legit than dismissing the provenance of any other collectible.
Just Silly!
Indian Head $10 Gold Set Album
Look like bullion coins to me. Worth just above spot no matter how much hype.
Overland Trail Collection Showcase
Dahlonega Type Set-2008 PCGS Best Exhibited Set
Objectively of less historical significance and desirability than many other examples of label provenance.
For instance, are we going to equate a label provenance of a Garrett or Eliasberg single high grade coin with the label provenance of a modern Mint product of which there are thousands of identical specimens?
They are obviously selling at a premium, but they are not analogous to all label provenance.
Expensive leftovers and no meat on the bone
Practice makes perfect & nobody is perfect. So, practice being nobody and be perfect !
I see a #93 on eBay for $5,750 or offer, and they purchased the 2 Dusk and Dawn silver NGC MS69 eagles for $2,000 at the auction.
Another one lot 174 coin #44 purchased for $1,100 a single MS69 NGC silver eagle and asking $4,750.
My guess is they will get lucky and find someone with money who can still afford to buy meat.
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
I think that is the whole point. In the past, the mint created a feeding frenzy on its website with extremely limited editions, allowing a select lucky few to profit before the market set the value.
This time, the mint stripped the bone of its meat before releasing the coins into the market. The whole point of the auction was to allow the mint to capture the premium for itself. If the Coin Vault guys are going to be able to flip the $7,500 sets for $15,000+, I guess more power to them, but the idea behind the auction was to not leave any meat on the bone.
If you are a numismatist, Eliasberg is notable for assembling a complete collection of mostly higher grade coins some directly from the Mint, extreme rarities, unique acquisitions, etc. Not an arbitrary collector.
GSA dollars went from the bag to the sorting tray to the holder. Probably as mint state as you can get. How many cc dollars have been dipped?
Yes, it is my personal preference to collect a significant coin with a provenance that is relevant to numismatic history. Not a label attached to thousands of identical coins minted in the last year.
I am seriously considering not voting for you as Ombudsman of the message board for '23.
Yes, a ridiculous comparison frankly. Eliasberg coins were quite superior usually, and not many can or could match them. These "label rarities" are just fine for those that love them or profit from them, not for all most certainly.
Well, just Love coins, period.
If these were actually edge numbered, like the Mint did on many past medals, I would have bid for one, because then they would be truly different modern coin varieties.
Future edge numbers or number sequence stamped privy's on the Mint's most limited items would cause a bit of extra demand.
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
Crazy so they are the first 500 coins to be minted. Hum I guess the #1 coin may be worth something to someone but not to me.
Hoard the keys.
Not a refute as the majority are special pieces DATE BY DATE and not some bogus numbers attached to otherwise identical coins.
Well, just Love coins, period.