Why is the 68 rookie Ryan worth alot more than the 68 Bench rookie?

coolstanley · August 21, 2022 6:21AM

Pretty much the same looking card. Isn't Johnny Bench considered the GOAT catcher? Why does the Nolan Ryan go for such higher prices?

StatsGuy · August 21, 2022 7:01AM

I'm guessing that the level of desire of each card is based on the way major league baseball has evolved with its few outcomes: home runs, strikeouts, walks. Nolan Ryan is the career strikeout leader. Johnny Bench was not among the highest career home runs hitters (389).

coolstanley · August 21, 2022 7:37AM

@StatsGuy said:
I'm guessing that the level of desire of each card is based on the way major league baseball has evolved with its few outcomes: home runs, strikeouts, walks. Nolan Ryan is the career strikeout leader. Johnny Bench was not among the highest career home runs hitters (389).

Who would expect a catcher to be a career home run leader?

georgebailey2 · August 21, 2022 7:49AM

@coolstanley said:

Who would expect a catcher to be a career home run leader?

Josh Gibson?

Bosox1976 · August 21, 2022 7:49AM

Koosman-mania still grips the nation.

daltex · August 21, 2022 7:53AM

@coolstanley said:
Pretty much the same looking card. Isn't Johnny Bench considered the GOAT catcher? Why does the Nolan Ryan go for such higher prices?

Ryan is, and has been for at least 35 years, desired far beyond his success on the mound.

CMKL · August 21, 2022 8:18AM

Because it’s Nolan Friggin Ryan 😎

WFFL · August 21, 2022 9:05AM

Seven no-hitters.

Unknown · August 21, 2022 9:28AM

This content has been removed.

NGS428 · August 21, 2022 9:57AM

@Bosox1976 said:
Koosman-mania still grips the nation.

I still have my Koosmania t-shirt.

mintonlypls · August 21, 2022 10:17AM

Career strikeouts of 5714 and 7 career no-hitters will never be broken...

vols1 · August 21, 2022 10:30AM

It probably has to do with longevity. Bench retired 10 years before Ryan so he could go into TV. As a consequence, most of the career records Bench held have been passed by Piazza or Rodriguez.

handyman · August 21, 2022 10:40AM

I will trade you 2 J Benches for every 1968 Ryan that you have.
You're welcome.
This offer is not for everyone. Sorry guys

grote15 · August 21, 2022 11:03AM

Ryan is way more popular among collectors.

KendallCat · August 21, 2022 11:36AM

Bench was the GOAT catcher and revolutionized the catching position both on offense and defense.MVP at age 22 with 45 HR’s and 148 RBI, and probably hits 50 plus that year if the Reds don’t move from Crosley Field to the larger Riverfront Stadium. People don’t realize the surgery to remove a spot on his lung after the 72 season hurt his strength going forward, and a collision with Gary Matthews at the plate a couple years later tore his right shoulder up. He lost 3-5 years later in his career because of injuries.

Ryan is just an icon and was what every little kid growing up wanted to be - fastest on the planet with a fastball and despite today’s technology nobody has surpassed him in terms of velo. K’s per inning, K’s in a season, K’s in a career, 7 no hitters…. Plus every kid who is the best player in his team was a pitcher - not everyone plays catcher, so more kids identify with Ryan and he played much longer. Can’t go wrong with either one, and I grab as many of each and have been the last several years.

Ridethelightning · August 21, 2022 3:29PM

@CMKL said:
Because it’s Nolan Friggin Ryan 😎

agreed.. it is as simple as that.... it's Nolan Friggin Ryan !!!! Nolan Ryan. It's Nolan Ryan. He pitched. He struck beetches out. He didn't care about being a Spankee or other. It's Nolan friggin Ryan.

....but....... Johnny has THE GREATEST baseball card ever produced:

lwehlers · August 21, 2022 3:46PM

two of the best ever. i like them both. i also think that the bench rookie is underated.

lwehlers · August 21, 2022 3:52PM

@Ridethelightning said:

@CMKL said:
Because it’s Nolan Friggin Ryan 😎

agreed.. it is as simple as that.... it's Nolan Friggin Ryan !!!! Nolan Ryan. It's Nolan Ryan. He pitched. He struck beetches out. He didn't care about being a Spankee or other. It's Nolan friggin Ryan.

....but....... Johnny has THE GREATEST baseball card ever produced:

van halen picture is cool.

SDSportsFan · August 21, 2022 5:14PM

Ryan had "Sexier stats"
7 No-hitters, 12 one-hitters, 18 two-hitters
All-time K Leader
Played 27 years / Bench - played 17 years
1969 Miracle Mets

Also, Jerry Koosman > Ron Tompkins

Here's an interesting item I just found:

On June 14, 1974, the Red Sox played the Angels in Anaheim. Luis Tiant against Nolan Ryan. Ryan pitched 13 innings, throwing 235 pitches. He struck out 19 and walked 10; it was one of three times that season that Ryan struck out 19 batters in a game. Tiant pitched 14 1/3 innings. After nine innings, the score was tied 3-3, thanks to a 2-run homer by Carl Yastrzemski in the top of the 9th. The Angels won it in the 15th inning; Tiant taking the loss, with Ryan getting no-decision.

Steve

Seaverfan · August 21, 2022 8:25PM

I'm not sure about the card location on their master sheets but perhaps the positions may have effected the overall cut of each card with more rookie Bench (#247) cards cut better than the rookie Ryan (#177) cards, therefore effecting the number of available cards in higher grades..... Typically cards located on the edges and corners are tougher in general in my experience.

daltex · August 21, 2022 9:57PM

@SDSportsFan said:

On June 14, 1974, the Red Sox played the Angels in Anaheim. Luis Tiant against Nolan Ryan. Ryan pitched 13 innings, throwing 235 pitches. He struck out 19 and walked 10; it was one of three times that season that Ryan struck out 19 batters in a game. Tiant pitched 14 1/3 innings. After nine innings, the score was tied 3-3, thanks to a 2-run homer by Carl Yastrzemski in the top of the 9th. The Angels won it in the 15th inning; Tiant taking the loss, with Ryan getting no-decision.

Steve

Never again!

stevebay · August 21, 2022 10:10PM

I collected in the late 80s, and it wasn't until Ryan had his 6th and 7th No-hitters, that propelled him to mythical status and a surge in his cards. He finished his career on a super high note. Prior to his 6th no-hitter in 1990, I don't recall him being a hobby icon (those days, it was Will Clark, Canseco, Griffey, Mattingly, Bo, etc.)

2014bestservice · August 22, 2022 1:22AM

To answer the OP he had quite a head start on name recognition. Being in NY, 69 Amazing Mets, all sorts of noticed statistical accomplishments like K titles , 19k games, no hitters , 100mph pitches etc. etc. Etc. All before 1974.

Wasn't until the mid 70s when the Reds got going Bench started getting some recognition. Catchers just don't get the love.

And to be honest = I prefer the 69 versions of both to either 68.

craig44 · August 22, 2022 4:45AM

Ryan was making history at just the right time, when the hobby was blowing up in the early 90s. he was very popular. pitching into his mid 40s. I remember he had lots of ads on television at the time too. He had an Advil commercial that played often where he drawled, " I feel like I could go another 9 innings" after taking advil.

emar · August 22, 2022 4:46AM

In my early years of collecting, mid- 80s, I'd ogle Ryan's BV in the Beckett price guide. Bench was cool but didn't give him too much thought.
Ryan was top dog and the card to own (in my dreams!)
Cards from the 40s & 50s probably didn't even exist except in a far away fantasy land.

coolstanley · August 22, 2022 5:43AM

Ryan is more popular, despite having thrown the most walks in history and never won a cy young. Bench had an amazing career. 2 MVP's, 14 all stars, 10 GG's, and WS MVP.

detroitfan2 · August 22, 2022 7:06AM

@mintonlypls said:
Career strikeouts of 5714 and 7 career no-hitters will never be broken...

Yeah but did Nolan ever have one of these:

stevebay · August 22, 2022 10:15AM

@detroitfan2 said:

@mintonlypls said:
Career strikeouts of 5714 and 7 career no-hitters will never be broken...

Yeah but did Nolan ever have one of these:

"Pitch & Bat"...Nolan was the precursor to Shohei Otani

detroitfan2 · August 22, 2022 11:17AM

Never seen the pitch and bat before! That is awesome.

brad31 · August 22, 2022 3:00PM

To me, hosting the Baseball Bunch puts Bench on top!

3stars · August 22, 2022 3:28PM

@SDSportsFan said:
Ryan had "Sexier stats"
7 No-hitters, 12 one-hitters, 18 two-hitters
All-time K Leader
Played 27 years / Bench - played 17 years
1969 Miracle Mets

Also, Jerry Koosman > Ron Tompkins

Here's an interesting item I just found:

On June 14, 1974, the Red Sox played the Angels in Anaheim. Luis Tiant against Nolan Ryan. Ryan pitched 13 innings, throwing 235 pitches. He struck out 19 and walked 10; it was one of three times that season that Ryan struck out 19 batters in a game. Tiant pitched 14 1/3 innings. After nine innings, the score was tied 3-3, thanks to a 2-run homer by Carl Yastrzemski in the top of the 9th. The Angels won it in the 15th inning; Tiant taking the loss, with Ryan getting no-decision.

Steve

Steve

Sexier still:
292 losses
2795 walks (First all time - by a lot)
277 wild pitches (second all time)

daltex · August 22, 2022 4:51PM

Look, Nolan Ryan is extremely problematic as a player. Only once in his career did he have two all-star games back to back. Only once did he finish as high as second in Cy Young voting. His best season was almost certainly 1977, which was somewhere around the 30th best season of the 1970s. His career arc is extremely interesting, His best five consecutive years were 1973 to 1977, and after 1981 he became very average. If Ryan had retired after his 1981 strike shortened season, his career value looks something like that of Johnny Cueto, Steve Rogers. Larry Jackson, or Sam McDowell. Good pitchers, maybe even underrated, but nobody seriously thinks of them as HoFers. Then, all of a sudden, in his age 40 season (1987) Ryan becomes good again. His age 40-44 seasons are almost as good as his peak five! Granted that the best of them (either 1987 or 1991) isn't likely in the top 40 seasons in those years, but still he was good. Average in his age 45 season, and then just bad in his age 46 season. Now I'm not saying that Ryan was using any suspicious substances (I have no idea), but it's darn curious for a pitcher who was slightly above average from ages 35-39 to become good (again) at age 40. Ryan went from not close to borderline HoFer to slightly above average in the HoF.

Bottom line, though, is that Ryan is sexy beyond all reasoning. Even though he won't be on anyone's short list of the best pitchers, he is undoubtedly the most collectible.

Mickey71 · August 22, 2022 8:10PM

Ryan's 1981 season is very underrated. He gave up 2 HR's the entire season with a 1.69 ERA. Allowed 6 hits per 9 innings pitched. Just insane numbers.

brad31 · August 22, 2022 9:18PM

@Mickey71 said:
Ryan's 1981 season is very underrated. He gave up 2 HR's the entire season with a 1.69 ERA. Allowed 6 hits per 9 innings pitched. Just insane numbers.

His numbers were incredible, but a big part of that was the Astrodome. The entire Astros team only gave up 40 HR in the strike shortened season and the entire team had a 2.66 ERA.

billwaltonsbeard · August 23, 2022 6:16AM

If Johnny Bench had led the league in HRs in the early 90s, maybe we could have this conversation

ScoobyDoo2 · August 23, 2022 9:07AM

EZ ...b/c he is better looking....

stevebay · August 23, 2022 9:57AM

@lwehlers said:

two of the best ever. i like them both. i also think that the bench rookie is underated.

You need to add this card to complete the trifecta

CON40 · August 23, 2022 10:27AM

@daltex said:
Look, Nolan Ryan is extremely problematic as a player. Only once in his career did he have two all-star games back to back. Only once did he finish as high as second in Cy Young voting. His best season was almost certainly 1977, which was somewhere around the 30th best season of the 1970s. His career arc is extremely interesting, His best five consecutive years were 1973 to 1977, and after 1981 he became very average. If Ryan had retired after his 1981 strike shortened season, his career value looks something like that of Johnny Cueto, Steve Rogers. Larry Jackson, or Sam McDowell. Good pitchers, maybe even underrated, but nobody seriously thinks of them as HoFers. Then, all of a sudden, in his age 40 season (1987) Ryan becomes good again. His age 40-44 seasons are almost as good as his peak five! Granted that the best of them (either 1987 or 1991) isn't likely in the top 40 seasons in those years, but still he was good. Average in his age 45 season, and then just bad in his age 46 season. Now I'm not saying that Ryan was using any suspicious substances (I have no idea), but it's darn curious for a pitcher who was slightly above average from ages 35-39 to become good (again) at age 40. Ryan went from not close to borderline HoFer to slightly above average in the HoF.

Bottom line, though, is that Ryan is sexy beyond all reasoning. Even though he won't be on anyone's short list of the best pitchers, he is undoubtedly the most collectible.

In 1986, Ryan had elbow chips and inflammation that forced him to throw with a pitch count (110 pitches). He hated it. It was in 1987 that he really worked to improve his change up to complement his heater and curve. It lead to a resurgence in strikeouts, and less wear and tear on his elbow. As a result, his IP started creeping up and along with it his strikeouts and decisions.

Dgofwinter · August 23, 2022 11:36AM

Because Ryan is the greatest and Manny Sanguillen was the greatest catcher of the 70s!!

1982FootballWax · August 24, 2022 7:16AM

If pure numbers were all that mattered Mays and Aaron cards would be much higher valued than Mantle.

Other than strikeout's and no-hitters for a HOF'er Ryan's stats are rather middling. BUT numbers in this case take back seat to being a legend that transcended the game.

FirstBeard · August 24, 2022 7:30AM

That Heritage Ryan/Bench is insanity!

Cakes · August 24, 2022 8:41AM

@82FootballWaxMemorys said:
If pure numbers were all that mattered Mays and Aaron cards would be much higher valued than Mantle.

Other than strikeout's and no-hitters for a HOF'er Ryan's stats are rather middling. BUT numbers in this case take back seat to being a legend that transcended the game.

I would also add in the whipping he gave Robin Ventura. That only added to his legendary status!

waxman · August 24, 2022 9:24AM

@Cakes said:

@82FootballWaxMemorys said:
If pure numbers were all that mattered Mays and Aaron cards would be much higher valued than Mantle.

Other than strikeout's and no-hitters for a HOF'er Ryan's stats are rather middling. BUT numbers in this case take back seat to being a legend that transcended the game.

I would also add in the whipping he gave Robin Ventura. That only added to his legendary status!

From Wikipedia:
Ryan secured the 26-year-old Ventura in a headlock with his left arm, while pummeling Ventura's head with his right fist six times before catcher Iván Rodríguez was able to pull Ventura away from Ryan. Ryan stated afterwards it was the same maneuver he used on steers he had to brand on his Texas ranch.

stwainfan · August 24, 2022 9:34AM

@82FootballWaxMemorys said:
If pure numbers were all that mattered Mays and Aaron cards would be much higher valued than Mantle.

Other than strikeout's and no-hitters for a HOF'er Ryan's stats are rather middling. BUT numbers in this case take back seat to being a legend that transcended the game.

I think Aaron was a better player. Mantle was also a Yankee. So that is part of it as well.

1982FootballWax · August 24, 2022 10:37AM

@waxman2745 said:

@Cakes said:

@82FootballWaxMemorys said:
If pure numbers were all that mattered Mays and Aaron cards would be much higher valued than Mantle.

Other than strikeout's and no-hitters for a HOF'er Ryan's stats are rather middling. BUT numbers in this case take back seat to being a legend that transcended the game.

I would also add in the whipping he gave Robin Ventura. That only added to his legendary status!

From Wikipedia:
Ryan secured the 26-year-old Ventura in a headlock with his left arm, while pummeling Ventura's head with his right fist six times before catcher Iván Rodríguez was able to pull Ventura away from Ryan. Ryan stated afterwards it was the same maneuver he used on steers he had to brand on his Texas ranch.

Now if Chris Rock had done that to Will Smith he would have got same cred.

Browns1981 · August 24, 2022 1:55PM

It’s amazing he never won a Cy Young award. He played on a lot of garbage teams so his W/L isn’t incredible (though he has 300+ wins) so that’s probably why.

daltex · August 24, 2022 11:15PM

@Browns1981 said:
It’s amazing he never won a Cy Young award. He played on a lot of garbage teams so his W/L isn’t incredible (though he has 300+ wins) so that’s probably why.

Or that he is 309th in history in WHIP. just a hair better than Rudy May and Craig Lefferts.

He is 70th in "adjusted pitching wins", a cumulative stat, which slots him exactly between Chris Sale and Kevin Appier. Now Sale and Appier were fine pitchers (are?) even if neither is seriously going to be considered for the HoF, but they pitched a combined 28 years while Ryan pitched 27. Think of that, 12 years of Sale plus 15 years of a league average pitcher or 16 years of Appier plus eleven years of the same league average pitcher is approximately equivalent to 27 years of Ryan in value. Now this doesn't come close to some of the really average pitchers enshrined (was Jim Kaat really only as good as Bob Stanley in twice as many years?), but indicates that Ryan really shouldn't be considered truly great. Heck, on a career basis Ryan wasn't even the best pitcher on his Ranger teams.

Which season do you think he should have won the Cy Young?

Estil · August 24, 2022 11:42PM

Maybe Bench struck out against Ryan one too many times?

JoeBanzai · August 25, 2022 5:50AM

@daltex said:

@Browns1981 said:
It’s amazing he never won a Cy Young award. He played on a lot of garbage teams so his W/L isn’t incredible (though he has 300+ wins) so that’s probably why.

Which season do you think he should have won the Cy Young?

>
>
Certainly should have won in 1981, probably in 1987 as well. Led the league both times in ERA. Would have been interesting to see him win in '87 with an 8-16 record.