@Browns1981 said:
It’s amazing he never won a Cy Young award. He played on a lot of garbage teams so his W/L isn’t incredible (though he has 300+ wins) so that’s probably why.
Or that he is 309th in history in WHIP. just a hair better than Rudy May and Craig Lefferts.
He is 70th in "adjusted pitching wins", a cumulative stat, which slots him exactly between Chris Sale and Kevin Appier. Now Sale and Appier were fine pitchers (are?) even if neither is seriously going to be considered for the HoF, but they pitched a combined 28 years while Ryan pitched 27. Think of that, 12 years of Sale plus 15 years of a league average pitcher or 16 years of Appier plus eleven years of the same league average pitcher is approximately equivalent to 27 years of Ryan in value. Now this doesn't come close to some of the really average pitchers enshrined (was Jim Kaat really only as good as Bob Stanley in twice as many years?), but indicates that Ryan really shouldn't be considered truly great. Heck, on a career basis Ryan wasn't even the best pitcher on his Ranger teams.
Which season do you think he should have won the Cy Young?
I don’t disagree with your advanced stats but in the 70s and 80s guys won just because they had the most Wins that year.
@billwaltonsbeard said:
He should have won the 1973 CY..........but that is irrelevant. His early 90s dominating comeback is what solidified his legendary status.
People who work overtime to try to prove that he didn't have the stats just don't get it.....who cares?
Palmer and Blyleven were both better in 1973 imo.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@jeffv96masters said:
To answer the OP he had quite a head start on name recognition. Being in NY, 69 Amazing Mets, all sorts of noticed statistical accomplishments like K titles , 19k games, no hitters , 100mph pitches etc. etc. Etc. All before 1974.
Wasn't until the mid 70s when the Reds got going Bench started getting some recognition. Catchers just don't get the love.
And to be honest = I prefer the 69 versions of both to either 68.
Bench won the NL MVP in 1970 and 1972, and was ROY in 1968.
True, the Reds won 2 consecutive world series in the mid-1970s and during the 1976 World Series Sparky Anderson told reporters, "Don't never embarrass nobody by comparing them to Johnny Bench." (In reference to Thurman Munson). But Bench had a historic start to his career
@Browns1981 said:
It’s amazing he never won a Cy Young award. He played on a lot of garbage teams so his W/L isn’t incredible (though he has 300+ wins) so that’s probably why.
I was always curious...what is more impressive in terms of achievement:
1) 7 No-Hitters (Ryan)
2) 7 Cy-Youngs (Clemens)
Neither player has even one of the other achievement.
@Browns1981 said:
It’s amazing he never won a Cy Young award. He played on a lot of garbage teams so his W/L isn’t incredible (though he has 300+ wins) so that’s probably why.
I was always curious...what is more impressive in terms of achievement:
1) 7 No-Hitters (Ryan)
2) 7 Cy-Youngs (Clemens)
Neither player has even one of the other achievement.
One is a single game stat, the other is a single season stat. Many, many people you've never heard of have pitched no hitters.
@billwaltonsbeard said:
He should have won the 1973 CY..........but that is irrelevant. His early 90s dominating comeback is what solidified his legendary status.
People who work overtime to try to prove that he didn't have the stats just don't get it.....who cares?
Palmer and Blyleven were both better in 1973 imo.
Blyleven and Niekro were almost comically underrated.
@Browns1981 said:
It’s amazing he never won a Cy Young award. He played on a lot of garbage teams so his W/L isn’t incredible (though he has 300+ wins) so that’s probably why.
I was always curious...what is more impressive in terms of achievement:
1) 7 No-Hitters (Ryan)
2) 7 Cy-Youngs (Clemens)
Neither player has even one of the other achievement.
One is a single game stat, the other is a single season stat. Many, many people you've never heard of have pitched no hitters.
I think 7 Cy Young’s is infinitely more impressive. My thought is immediate reward - have to watch one game to appreciate a no hitter but up to 33 starts to appreciate a Cy Young. What a day for baseball watching Henderson break Brock’s record and then Ryan pitching a no-hitter.
@billwaltonsbeard said:
He should have won the 1973 CY..........but that is irrelevant. His early 90s dominating comeback is what solidified his legendary status.
People who work overtime to try to prove that he didn't have the stats just don't get it.....who cares?
Palmer and Blyleven were both better in 1973 imo.
Blyleven and Niekro were almost comically underrated.
I think it's the opposite. I wish it would be harder to get voted. I's not called the Hall of very good!
The NFL has been completely watering down their HOF the last 5 years. It used to be about 5 or 6 players a year but since 2015 it's doubled and tripled in certain years.
Successful coin BST transactions with Gerard and segoja.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
I was always curious...what is more impressive in terms of achievement:
1) 7 No-Hitters (Ryan)
2) 7 Cy-Youngs (Clemens)
Neither player has even one of the other achievement.
One is a physical and statistical achievement and one is an opinion.
Cy young is subjective ( voted on like Miss America.) NO hitters are objective (fact, not opinion) Apples and Oranges. Plus, like above, a yearly award as opposed to a one game event. But 7 no-hitters. Seven...
@billwaltonsbeard said:
He should have won the 1973 CY..........but that is irrelevant. His early 90s dominating comeback is what solidified his legendary status.
People who work overtime to try to prove that he didn't have the stats just don't get it.....who cares?
Palmer and Blyleven were both better in 1973 imo.
Blyleven and Niekro were almost comically underrated.
I think it's the opposite. I wish it would be harder to get voted. I's not called the Hall of very good!
Blyleven;
Wins Above replacement, 9 seasons in the top 10.
WAR for Pitchers 13 seasons in the top 10, nine years in the top FOUR.
ERA 10 seasons in the top 10, seven in the top_ FIVE_.
WHIP 10 seasons in the top 10.
Strikeouts per 9 innings 14 seasons in the top 10.
Innings pitched 11seasons in the top 10.
Strikeouts 15 seasons in the top 10.
Complete games 12 seasons in the top 10.
Shutouts 10 seasons in the top 10.
Strikeouts/Base on balls 16 seasons in the top 10.
Adjusted ERA+ 12 seasons in the top 10.
Adj pitching runs 11 seasons in the top 10.
Adj pitching wins 11 seasons in the top 10.
Base out runs saved 11 seasons in the top 10.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@billwaltonsbeard said:
He should have won the 1973 CY..........but that is irrelevant. His early 90s dominating comeback is what solidified his legendary status.
People who work overtime to try to prove that he didn't have the stats just don't get it.....who cares?
Palmer and Blyleven were both better in 1973 imo.
Blyleven and Niekro were almost comically underrated.
I think it's the opposite. I wish it would be harder to get voted. I's not called the Hall of very good!
The NFL has been completely watering down their HOF the last 5 years. It used to be about 5 or 6 players a year but since 2015 it's doubled and tripled in certain years.
Oh, I completely agree (about baseball, not knowing enough about the NFL), but Blyleven and Niekro are far, far from the biggest mistakes. It would be an awfully small hall if Blyleven and Niekro weren't good enough to be in. Some of the members of the "Frish's Friends" group who were put in by the various committees in the early '70s, and many fewer of those put in oday don't even count as "very good", IMO.
How good does a player have to be to be considered "very good"? I don't think Jim Bottomley or "High Pockets" Kelly reach that standard.
@billwaltonsbeard said:
He should have won the 1973 CY..........but that is irrelevant. His early 90s dominating comeback is what solidified his legendary status.
People who work overtime to try to prove that he didn't have the stats just don't get it.....who cares?
Palmer and Blyleven were both better in 1973 imo.
Blyleven and Niekro were almost comically underrated.
I think it's the opposite. I wish it would be harder to get voted. I's not called the Hall of very good!
The NFL has been completely watering down their HOF the last 5 years. It used to be about 5 or 6 players a year but since 2015 it's doubled and tripled in certain years.
Oh, I completely agree (about baseball, not knowing enough about the NFL), but Blyleven and Niekro are far, far from the biggest mistakes. It would be an awfully small hall if Blyleven and Niekro weren't good enough to be in. Some of the members of the "Frish's Friends" group who were put in by the various committees in the early '70s, and many fewer of those put in oday don't even count as "very good", IMO.
How good does a player have to be to be considered "very good"? I don't think Jim Bottomley or "High Pockets" Kelly reach that standard.
Here a photo of the #177 Ryan rookie on an uncut 68 sheet. It's located along the L side border.
Along with the above comments about Ryans's fan base, the cards tough position on the uncut sheet could help explain why fewer numbers of overall well centered cards exist when compared to #247 Bench rookie (although admittedly I'm not sure where the Bench card was located on its sheet)....
@billwaltonsbeard said:
He should have won the 1973 CY..........but that is irrelevant. His early 90s dominating comeback is what solidified his legendary status.
People who work overtime to try to prove that he didn't have the stats just don't get it.....who cares?
Palmer and Blyleven were both better in 1973 imo.
Blyleven and Niekro were almost comically underrated.
I think it's the opposite. I wish it would be harder to get voted. I's not called the Hall of very good!
Blyleven;
Wins Above replacement, 9 seasons in the top 10.
WAR for Pitchers 13 seasons in the top 10, nine years in the top FOUR.
ERA 10 seasons in the top 10, seven in the top_ FIVE_.
WHIP 10 seasons in the top 10.
Strikeouts per 9 innings 14 seasons in the top 10.
Innings pitched 11seasons in the top 10.
Strikeouts 15 seasons in the top 10.
Complete games 12 seasons in the top 10.
Shutouts 10 seasons in the top 10.
Strikeouts/Base on balls 16 seasons in the top 10.
Adjusted ERA+ 12 seasons in the top 10.
Adj pitching runs 11 seasons in the top 10.
Adj pitching wins 11 seasons in the top 10.
Base out runs saved 11 seasons in the top 10.
I understand people will flame me and on this subject but again if it was up to me the HOF would be cut almost in half. Niekro and Blyleven barely have winning records. Edited to add I think Blyleven was better than Niekro.
Deon Sanders said recently that if they keep letting so many into the Pro Football HOF they should have a separate section for the elite. I like this idea.
Successful coin BST transactions with Gerard and segoja.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
Wins and Losses is one of the worst ways to evaluate a pitcher - but by the measure of winning records Ryan is the one who least belongs if we are talking “barely has a winning record”.
Wins and Losses is one of the worst ways to evaluate a pitcher - but by the measure of winning records Ryan is the one who least belongs if we are talking “barely has a winning record”.
All 3 belong in even a more stringent HOF.
So you throw out wins and losses?
Voters must feel otherwise about Blyleven, he barely made it in, and clearly would not have made it under a more stringent voting. Once again if it was up to me the HOF would be cut almost in half.
Successful coin BST transactions with Gerard and segoja.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
There are about 80 pitchers in the HOF - think you will struggle to find 40 better than Blyleven or Niekro. Both are in the top half.
I don’t throw out Wins and Losses - but it is a smaller factor than many other stats. Quality starts better rates a pitcher than Wins if looking for a similar stat. Game Score is better as well.
@brad31 said:
There are about 80 pitchers in the HOF - think you will struggle to find 40 better than Blyleven or Niekro. Both are in the top half.
I don’t throw out Wins and Losses - but it is a smaller factor than many other stats. Quality starts better rates a pitcher than Wins if looking for a similar stat. Game Score is better as well.
You can keep saying that Blyleven and Niekro belong but to say they belong in the top half is insane. I could probably name 10 from 1980 on that will never get in the HOF that are better just off the top of my head. Each one of these guys I would rather start in a WS game instead of noodle armed Niekro.
Not sure why being a 'noodle armed Niekro' is a bad thing. I'd bet you 100% of every pitcher that ever pitched an inning at any level (and especially MLB) would throw any pitch with any delivery just to stay in the big leagues.
Considering PN led the league in lots of categories well into the 80s implies he was very good at his job. And for a very long time.
If anything I'd say he was discriminated against for what he threw and should have been in sooner than he was.
@billwaltonsbeard said:
He should have won the 1973 CY..........but that is irrelevant. His early 90s dominating comeback is what solidified his legendary status.
People who work overtime to try to prove that he didn't have the stats just don't get it.....who cares?
Palmer and Blyleven were both better in 1973 imo.
Blyleven and Niekro were almost comically underrated.
I think it's the opposite. I wish it would be harder to get voted. I's not called the Hall of very good!
Blyleven;
Wins Above replacement, 9 seasons in the top 10.
WAR for Pitchers 13 seasons in the top 10, nine years in the top FOUR.
ERA 10 seasons in the top 10, seven in the top_ FIVE_.
WHIP 10 seasons in the top 10.
Strikeouts per 9 innings 14 seasons in the top 10.
Innings pitched 11seasons in the top 10.
Strikeouts 15 seasons in the top 10.
Complete games 12 seasons in the top 10.
Shutouts 10 seasons in the top 10.
Strikeouts/Base on balls 16 seasons in the top 10.
Adjusted ERA+ 12 seasons in the top 10.
Adj pitching runs 11 seasons in the top 10.
Adj pitching wins 11 seasons in the top 10.
Base out runs saved 11 seasons in the top 10.
I understand people will flame me and on this subject but again if it was up to me the HOF would be cut almost in half. Niekro and Blyleven barely have winning records. Edited to add I think Blyleven was better than Niekro.
Deon Sanders said recently that if they keep letting so many into the Pro Football HOF they should have a separate section for the elite. I like this idea.
If you're comfortable saying Spalding (by a large margin), Ford, and Caruthers are the best in baseball history, then I can accept this.
Wins and Losses is one of the worst ways to evaluate a pitcher - but by the measure of winning records Ryan is the one who least belongs if we are talking “barely has a winning record”.
All 3 belong in even a more stringent HOF.
So you throw out wins and losses?
Voters must feel otherwise about Blyleven, he barely made it in, and clearly would not have made it under a more stringent voting. Once again if it was up to me the HOF would be cut almost in half.
Hey, I'm a small Hall guy myself, but we have to make sure that whether we have a 30 player hall, a 250 player hall, or a 1000 player hall you're enshrining, say, all the players in the top 20, 175, or 750 and none outside the top 40, 325, or 1250. That is, whatever the size of your hall you need to pick players who can make a reasonable claim to be in the top and don't leave out anyone who is obviously in the top . It's hard to make a case, if you dive deeply enough, that Niekro and Blyleven, in some order, aren't the second and third best pitchers of their era after Seaver. In fact, if you're looking at your HoF (again, of whatever size) pitchers of the mid '60s to the mid '80s and you have anybody in besides Seaver, Gibson, and Carlton (slim possibility Jenkins) without also including Niekro and Blyleven then you're doing something wrong.
Wins and Losses is one of the worst ways to evaluate a pitcher - but by the measure of winning records Ryan is the one who least belongs if we are talking “barely has a winning record”.
All 3 belong in even a more stringent HOF.
So you throw out wins and losses?
Voters must feel otherwise about Blyleven, he barely made it in, and clearly would not have made it under a more stringent voting. Once again if it was up to me the HOF would be cut almost in half.
Hey, I'm a small Hall guy myself, but we have to make sure that whether we have a 30 player hall, a 250 player hall, or a 1000 player hall you're enshrining, say, all the players in the top 20, 175, or 750 and none outside the top 40, 325, or 1250. That is, whatever the size of your hall you need to pick players who can make a reasonable claim to be in the top and don't leave out anyone who is obviously in the top . It's hard to make a case, if you dive deeply enough, that Niekro and Blyleven, in some order, aren't the second and third best pitchers of their era after Seaver. In fact, if you're looking at your HoF (again, of whatever size) pitchers of the mid '60s to the mid '80s and you have anybody in besides Seaver, Gibson, and Carlton (slim possibility Jenkins) without also including Niekro and Blyleven then you're doing something wrong.
Only half joking were, but Koufax had better be the first pitcher thrown out. Five good years not enough.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
Comments
I don’t disagree with your advanced stats but in the 70s and 80s guys won just because they had the most Wins that year.
Palmer and Blyleven were both better in 1973 imo.
Bench won the NL MVP in 1970 and 1972, and was ROY in 1968.
True, the Reds won 2 consecutive world series in the mid-1970s and during the 1976 World Series Sparky Anderson told reporters, "Don't never embarrass nobody by comparing them to Johnny Bench." (In reference to Thurman Munson). But Bench had a historic start to his career
I was always curious...what is more impressive in terms of achievement:
1) 7 No-Hitters (Ryan)
2) 7 Cy-Youngs (Clemens)
Neither player has even one of the other achievement.
One is a single game stat, the other is a single season stat. Many, many people you've never heard of have pitched no hitters.
Blyleven and Niekro were almost comically underrated.
I think 7 Cy Young’s is infinitely more impressive. My thought is immediate reward - have to watch one game to appreciate a no hitter but up to 33 starts to appreciate a Cy Young. What a day for baseball watching Henderson break Brock’s record and then Ryan pitching a no-hitter.
I think it's the opposite. I wish it would be harder to get voted. I's not called the Hall of very good!
The NFL has been completely watering down their HOF the last 5 years. It used to be about 5 or 6 players a year but since 2015 it's doubled and tripled in certain years.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
One is a physical and statistical achievement and one is an opinion.
Cy young is subjective ( voted on like Miss America.) NO hitters are objective (fact, not opinion) Apples and Oranges. Plus, like above, a yearly award as opposed to a one game event. But 7 no-hitters. Seven...
Blyleven;
Wins Above replacement, 9 seasons in the top 10.
WAR for Pitchers 13 seasons in the top 10, nine years in the top FOUR.
ERA 10 seasons in the top 10, seven in the top_ FIVE_.
WHIP 10 seasons in the top 10.
Strikeouts per 9 innings 14 seasons in the top 10.
Innings pitched 11seasons in the top 10.
Strikeouts 15 seasons in the top 10.
Complete games 12 seasons in the top 10.
Shutouts 10 seasons in the top 10.
Strikeouts/Base on balls 16 seasons in the top 10.
Adjusted ERA+ 12 seasons in the top 10.
Adj pitching runs 11 seasons in the top 10.
Adj pitching wins 11 seasons in the top 10.
Base out runs saved 11 seasons in the top 10.
If we want to go objective - how about the pitching triple crown.
4x Winners
Lefty Grove
3x winners:
Walter Johnson
Grover Cleveland Alexander
Sandy Koufax
2 x winners
Mathewson
Clemens
Ryan never won that either, though Carlton won one, Clemens 2 and Gooden 1 during Ryan’s career.
Oh, I completely agree (about baseball, not knowing enough about the NFL), but Blyleven and Niekro are far, far from the biggest mistakes. It would be an awfully small hall if Blyleven and Niekro weren't good enough to be in. Some of the members of the "Frish's Friends" group who were put in by the various committees in the early '70s, and many fewer of those put in oday don't even count as "very good", IMO.
How good does a player have to be to be considered "very good"? I don't think Jim Bottomley or "High Pockets" Kelly reach that standard.
Plus it was really easy to steal a base off of Ryan. Worst ever in that department if memory serves me..
This^^^^^
Blyleven and Niekro are definitely not mistakes.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Thank you for sharing this. I loved it. Ryan was a machine for pitching that well into his mid 40's.
Here a photo of the #177 Ryan rookie on an uncut 68 sheet. It's located along the L side border.
Along with the above comments about Ryans's fan base, the cards tough position on the uncut sheet could help explain why fewer numbers of overall well centered cards exist when compared to #247 Bench rookie (although admittedly I'm not sure where the Bench card was located on its sheet)....
The shortest answer is because more collectors care about Ryan than Bench.
Yaz Master Set
#1 Gino Cappelletti master set
#1 John Hannah master set
Also collecting Andre Tippett, Patriots Greats' RCs, Dwight Evans, 1964 Venezuelan Topps, 1974 Topps Red Sox
More collectors over 50. Anyone under probably doesn’t really know they exist.
I understand people will flame me and on this subject but again if it was up to me the HOF would be cut almost in half. Niekro and Blyleven barely have winning records. Edited to add I think Blyleven was better than Niekro.
Deon Sanders said recently that if they keep letting so many into the Pro Football HOF they should have a separate section for the elite. I like this idea.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
Records:
Ryan 324-292 Winning percentage: .525
Blyleven 287-250 Winning Percentage .534
Niekro 318-274 Winning Percentage .537
Wins and Losses is one of the worst ways to evaluate a pitcher - but by the measure of winning records Ryan is the one who least belongs if we are talking “barely has a winning record”.
All 3 belong in even a more stringent HOF.
So you throw out wins and losses?
Voters must feel otherwise about Blyleven, he barely made it in, and clearly would not have made it under a more stringent voting. Once again if it was up to me the HOF would be cut almost in half.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
There are about 80 pitchers in the HOF - think you will struggle to find 40 better than Blyleven or Niekro. Both are in the top half.
I don’t throw out Wins and Losses - but it is a smaller factor than many other stats. Quality starts better rates a pitcher than Wins if looking for a similar stat. Game Score is better as well.
You can keep saying that Blyleven and Niekro belong but to say they belong in the top half is insane. I could probably name 10 from 1980 on that will never get in the HOF that are better just off the top of my head. Each one of these guys I would rather start in a WS game instead of noodle armed Niekro.
Clemens, Mussina, Cone, Greinke, K Brown, Saberhagen, Doc Gooden, Fernando, etc...
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
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Thank God it's not up to you.
Why not take it a step farther and limit the HOF to 9 players, the best at each position.
Also throw out the sportsmanship garbage and let cheaters and child molesters in, as long as they have the numbers.
Not sure why being a 'noodle armed Niekro' is a bad thing. I'd bet you 100% of every pitcher that ever pitched an inning at any level (and especially MLB) would throw any pitch with any delivery just to stay in the big leagues.
Considering PN led the league in lots of categories well into the 80s implies he was very good at his job. And for a very long time.
If anything I'd say he was discriminated against for what he threw and should have been in sooner than he was.
If you're comfortable saying Spalding (by a large margin), Ford, and Caruthers are the best in baseball history, then I can accept this.
Hey, I'm a small Hall guy myself, but we have to make sure that whether we have a 30 player hall, a 250 player hall, or a 1000 player hall you're enshrining, say, all the players in the top 20, 175, or 750 and none outside the top 40, 325, or 1250. That is, whatever the size of your hall you need to pick players who can make a reasonable claim to be in the top and don't leave out anyone who is obviously in the top . It's hard to make a case, if you dive deeply enough, that Niekro and Blyleven, in some order, aren't the second and third best pitchers of their era after Seaver. In fact, if you're looking at your HoF (again, of whatever size) pitchers of the mid '60s to the mid '80s and you have anybody in besides Seaver, Gibson, and Carlton (slim possibility Jenkins) without also including Niekro and Blyleven then you're doing something wrong.
Only half joking were, but Koufax had better be the first pitcher thrown out. Five good years not enough.
That's interesting you bring up sportsmanship, etc. Blyleven was known to be prickly.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
He is a jerk. I know from first hand experience. Jack Morris............the same. Mantle could be a real horses you know what too. Bench as well.
That's not what I call sportsmanship, but I do like guys like Killebrew, Musial, Banks and Brooks R to name a few who treated people really nicely.
I was referring to steroids and gambling, particularly in the case of Bonds, A Rod and Rose.