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How determined PCGS is with its European sister company ?
IKU
Posts: 65 ✭✭✭
Hello
About PCGS: France, Paris (EU).
- German seller told it is +5 months waiting time with PCGS (Europe).
Has the 2010 opened European counterpart of PCGS been how successful in business during these 12 years alive ?
- Any info about how efficient they are for example how many pcs of coins does Paris encapsulate during 1x year ?
- Is it a horrible bottleneck production that could do much more ?
- Why is the PCGS Europe system clearly not working as intended ?
Anyone who got inside information what is going on in France ?
Was the PCGS Europe domination a good idea or dud=fiasco ?
Is it because of older people ( those not using credit cards ) disappearing, high silver and gold melting followed by the heavy decline of coin collecting ?
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Yes, I am interested too, since I want to use the service. Also, "heavy decline of coin collecting"?
Coinsof1984@martinb6830 on twitter
Have you tried to educate mobile phone generation (born after 1990) about physical coins that were used in trades before: credit cards, PayPal, other electronic money and cryptocurrency appeared ?
Young people collect more and more electronic things like: game consoles, games, computers.
Some really wanted old games sell really well and are high priced.
I honestly can not say that were are currently living in a golden era of coin collecting in 2000 century.
I think collecting coins currently is in a very large downfall it was somewhat popular in the 1850-1990 but not anymore.
Collecting coins just is not a popular hobby can you for example picture a modern 10-20 year old saying she/he collects coins as a main hobby ?
Well, to be fair, I am in my 50's and , for me, the future is getting shorter and shorter so I do not care what the kids of today will collect. What I know is that I like to collect. Maybe you are younger and you care more on what you spend.
Coinsof1984@martinb6830 on twitter
Ok. I'm almost 40 born in 1980s.
Coin collecting now is kind of non-existing thing for younger generations similar like stamp collecting.
I have seen constant interest growing with "historical" electronic devices and past video games for my generation and younger.
Myself I also have more vintage video game consoles and games than coins.
There are plenty of young coin collectors. Quite a few on the forums. I would say there are more collectors than ever, and more coins bought than ever, because of the internet. Coins are more available, as is information on coins and it's easier to talk to other people about them.
The thing about coin collecting that other collectibles don't necessarily have is longevity - you can branch out into ancients or medievals or other civilisations and learn about the history. It's something you can own than connects us to the Romans, the ancient Greeks, and the famous periods in history. It gets richer and richer. Young people tend not to be so interested in history, but it grows as you get older, which is why coin collectors tend to be older. (Plus, you need a fair bit of spare cash to collect many types of coin, which older people are more likely to have). Even so, my 5 year old nephew loves ancient coins because of the connection to history.
The same can't be said for mint condition computer games. Going by my son and his friends, the youngest generations already don't care about collecting computer games and are unlikely to. They're all downloads that get updated every year. The electronic game market is far more niche than coins.
And to answer your original question - the TPGs both in Europe and the US have long wait times because of high demand and not enough resources to meet it. Europeans are less interested in grading but still demand is higher than ever.
Coin collecting is extremely strong with with a younger generation, they simply collect in different ways. Instead of filling up blue Whitman albums, they are collecting in individual and unique ways. Instagram is very active with younger collectors and shows have been very active with collectors under 30. 10 years ago, when I was in my early 20's, there would be times I was the youngest one at the show, by a good 20 years. This has been a change for the better since the pandemic.
In regards to the turnaround times at PCGS Europe, that is not too much different than the turnaround times for PCGS in California for an Economy world submission
Justin Meunier
Boardwalk Numismatics
PCGs Europe does not have an onsite grading staff. They send the coins to Newport Beach for grading and then send them back to Paris.
They do on occasion express grading weeks where graders from the US go to Paris for on site grading. The standard turn around times are simply because the US based operation is backlogged.
Latin American Collection
Whilst I love coins, and there are plenty of anecdotes of there being young collectors, in fact I absolutely agree with the OP. The grassroots simply does NOT exist the way it used to, and there is overwhelming competition for their interests - try asking the random pre-teen or teenager if they would switch either time on their phone or video game for a coin interlude, purchase, or other related (don't, please don't mention numismatic book or catalogue).
Despite many of OUR best efforts, there is just a block. In the course of my job I see many people of all ages and even do presentations at schools, scout meetings, and also have a Middle School aged child. No matter how feverishly I work at making them (coins) interesting and trying to relate coins to their young lives, there is almost NO audience - essentially non-existent. I have tried "hands-on", gifts of recent interesting or later USA, foreign, and ancients; tried tying them into entertaining stories, etc., and this to no avail. I have tried bringing award winning (and great speaking) authors to these kids & they may like the stories and even presentations but is the extremely rare bird child that takes up any interest at all.
I would say TYPICAL collector demographics are well illustrated by the pictures in the last E-Sylum:
5/22/22 Wayne's Numismatic Diary:
Nothing wrong with the good folks there and love them, but even though this is a selected audience it is typical of what is seen at local shows like at Baltimore & those I have been to in other areas of the country. When people parade out a picture of a few isolated YN's at a show or meet, they are just that isolated. This type of demographic many times used to be referred to as the inverse pyramid or "Buick" demographic with a preponderance of older folks at the top and precious few at the bottom. Ask GM how that worked for them going into the '90s and first couple of 21st century decades.
So what I am saying is that it is good there are at least a few YN's, but they are getting fewer and retained only at the expense of increased efforts.
Well, just Love coins, period.
I don’t think there are fewer younger collectors than there used to be. There have been ‘other things to do’ for 40 years, ever since the typical family’s disposable income increased and personal computers were invented. I certainly don’t remember children in the 80s and 90s collecting coins. Not when they could play on their Ataris or go out on their bikes. History was for the classroom - you get interested in it later.
I could put it this way - until I was in my mid-30s, I had never seen a Roman coin. When I went travelling, people sold me fakes so obvious they might as well have been made of chocolate. I don’t think this situation has got worse today. It’s got better.
It’s not as if you can’t collect coins when you’ve finished spending your V-Bucks. It’s a hobby that can take up as much or little time as you like (unlike golf). But young people aren’t going to go to coin shows and meetings full of old people. Did they ever? I haven’t even been to any of those! At least now you can collect and talk about coins from your home.
Really? You need to go visit the middle school of your choice (or elementary or high school or college or graduate school). I absolutely not only think it, but have seen it ad infinitum. Do you really think there are equal or less A-V distractions and technology than there were in the 80s and 90s?
The answer to that is a big fat "NO".
Does that mean I like this phenomenon? Absolutely not, but no need to bury the head in the sand and ignore IMHO.
Well, just Love coins, period.
I think you both make good points. As the parent of kids in high school and elementary school, I haven't pushed at all but they could not be the slightest bit interested in coins. They have more entertaining past times. At the same time, they are barely interested in watching TV or going to the movies so it's not just coins.
I'm in my 40s so I don't have a ton of historical perspective but it seems unlikely that coin collecting was ever a hot fad (other than late 80s bubble?). It's not just niche but also rich in history which, as @JohnConduitt mentioned, people tend to get more interested in as they age. Lastly, it can be expensive! Kids and young adults don't necessarily have a ton of disposable income for even mid-range coins. And the old fashioned CRH or pennies and nickels in a folder probably doesn't hold much appeal as childrens' daily interactions with coins as currency is much more limited than it used to be.
The answer is probably just that the hobby slowly shrinks and becomes more niche but doesn't go away.
Chopmarked Trade Dollar Registry Set --- US Gold Showcase --- World Gold Showcase --- World Chopmark Showcase
If they want to collect they will, if they don’t, it’s not my business. You can’t force them. But I think many will come to it later, as I did. It’s like family history, or golf, or painting, or fishing, or politics, or plenty of pastimes with older demographics. They don’t die out, they attract older newcomers.
I simply question the belief young people were more into collecting coins 20, 30 or 40 years ago. I don’t think they were. I didn’t and I didn’t know anyone who did. And yes, it was just as easy to spend all day playing computer games. Or going to parties. Or stressing about exams. Young people always have more going on in their lives. And back then collecting coins was a lot harder without the internet to help learn about and buy them.
I do remember collecting 20, 30, 40 years ago and the "classic" times kids used to not only collect in the Whitman folders but have impromtu mini coin club meetings. We also scoured the LCS coin stores and even if it was just to look - not just me, but many kids. These kids fell by the wayside and do not collect anymore, nor do their kids or the friends of their kids.
Well, just Love coins, period.
Instead, gen Z and millennial collectors leverage social media and technology like discord, reddit, youtube, facebook and instagram. We have found more economical and "instant" ways of learning and mastering the hobby. We don't have to worry about club dues, having to find transportation (for the younger collectors) and don't have to wait weeks to talk coins or ask a coin-related question. With advances in photography, videos and animations like "coins in motion", you can get a very accurate idea of what coins look like and can cherrypick from hundreds of thousands of coins from a phone or computer as opposed to a stale LCS inventory.
Building relationships and evaluating a coin in hand is still hands down the best, but there are lots of young collectors out there building formidable collections.
To those who think they are no young collectors, stop by Instagram one day. You will find plenty of people there collecting, buying and selling on daily basis. Thousands.
Speaking of Instagram, here are some statistics from one of my posts with about average engagement on my account
This is the video post:
24,394 accounts reached
7,333 accounts engaged with the video (watched, liked, commented, shared, saved)
Age break-down of total accounts reached by interests:
18-24 -> 27.7% (6,757 accounts)
25-34 -> 42% (10,245 accounts)
35-44 -> 16.4% (4,000 accounts)
45-54 -> 7.2% (1,756 accounts)
55-64 -> 3.1% (750 accounts)
65+ -> 2.7% (650 accounts)
Tags / interests: #coin #collecting #coincollection #collection #numismatics #numismatica #numismaticamexicana #numismaticaespañola #silvercoin #rarecoin #monedas #moedas #monedasantiguas
How many coin clubs / shows in the 80's would i have to go to for 24k people to walk by my table and 7k to pick-up and inspect this one coin?
8 Reales Madness Collection
PCGS Europe is not slow at all. In fact it is much much faster than PCGS US and I’ve submitted to both for a lot of years. True ,PCGS Europe sends the coins to Newport Beach to have them graded but they come back incredibly fast. Most people, have left the Collector’s club, like me, or never joined to begin with and submit their coins through local dealers in Athens and Crete.
This is the reason why these coins do not get Trueviewed if submitted through the tier that offers a free one, there is no time. Instead , they are shipped back to Paris where they are imaged, usually a slab picture back and front with the PCGS logo in between, but the coins take priority and might even partly cause the backlogging in US submissions.
The “express grading sessions” that they do in Paris concern only very modern coins, not sure the cutoff date, 1980 or such and primarily deals with these, commems etc. To answer the initial question posed.
It’s been extremely successful and has vastly expanded the PCGS brand and awareness of the brand as well as its users. But the collectors also have the option to submit to NGC’s European office , which takes care of the submission, that is sending it to the US at the NGC headquarters, take care of the EU Customs as PCGS Paris does, but there the turnaround is long and the local office is not nearly as developped or equipped as PCGS’.
myEbay
DPOTD 3
OK, well rah, rah, rah. Coins are wonderful, and I truly believe that.
I can assure you that kids and young adults are relatively NOT using their computers and phones to look up numismatic sites as a rule. If there are 10,000,000 internet, let alone TiK Tok visits, what percentage do you think are devoted to numismatics in the 15-24 or 35-34 demographics. With all due respect to TwoKopeiki, there will be minuscule numbers (and I can assure you a total of 10 or 20,000 hits IS minuscule) visiting coin/numis sites compared to how many visits to Nikki Minaj's TikTok or Kim Kardashian's Twitter or Facebook; or how many gamer site visits per day. Yikes, that is probably in the billions. So 24k visits at a low energy investment of looking up something on your computer does not equate with the energy required to go to a coin club meeting or show, but by the same token, how many visits to these other sites compared to the measly 24k? Hopefully you get the point, but it seems not....
I really dislike it when people pull up a few anecdotes and let that serve as their argument. I have never said there are NONE but rather that there are simply fewer.
Look, I am just being pragmatic. If you go to coin shows there are few younger folks and fewer minorities. There are vastly fewer sales every year of proof and mint sets by the US Mint than there were 20, 30, 40 years ago. And I mean mere fractions of peak sales.
Well, just Love coins, period.
I now understand PCGS France sends coins to USA and then back.
So there is no true grading happening in Europe at all.
Kind of a let down that USA does not trust European graders.
But the true thing about numismatics is that soon there will be no more physical coins made and by then there will be no more new coins for collectors.
Meaning in future people will be fighting over by then very expensive demonetized physical coins.
Or buy something else than coins because if prices are too high no one buys them.
Golden age of coin collecting was in the 1900-1960 when there were silver and gold coins still circulating and since 1970+ world only has: nickel, steel, brass and such alloy coins.
My golden age of collecting is right now, I enjoy it, have the money to spend, got great stuff. In the next few years i will try to send a few hundred to grading and that will be the peek of my coin collecting, the platinum age. I feel good just by thinking about it. No idea about the kids. Keep in mind that we might be on the verge of a world war, so just do what you love , do not mind what the kids collect or not, just my 2 cents on the issue.
Coinsof1984@martinb6830 on twitter
It is because of the environment.
Manufacturing and storing physical money especially metal coins causes carbon dioxide.
In near future we have to keep lowering emissions to a specific standard and therefore only digital currency and credit card is the answer because they cause less emissions.
> The “express grading sessions” that they do in Paris concern only very modern coins, not sure the cutoff date, 1980 or such and primarily deals with these, commems etc. To answer the initial question posed.
I don't believe this is all accurate. I submitted many non-modern coins via PCGS Express as a direct submitter. I just got an email yesterday on the next Express event which covers everything.
Latin American Collection
Please Show me one true European grader who is actual familiar with grading coins!!!
Most do not know the Sheldon scale, but have very detailed knowledge and experience using
their proverbial "rubber band" grading system to grade coins....
if it still stretches it must be high Ms (vorzueglich or Stempelglanz). Even if you can barely see any letters....
It is true. When PCGS first opened its Paris office,they tried to recruit graders, but I don’t know where they got the candidates, including collectors with no clue in professional grading, None of the candidates had even been to an ANA summer seminar, grading coins 101, let alone advanced grading. And even if some had done it, chances to grade coins for PCGS were infinitely small. So coins are graded in Newport Beach. I’m surprised that even their in house photographer in Paris is so bad, god forbid if he ever chooses to do a closeup.
Boosibiri, I did not know that you were submitting to PCGS Europe, let alone express, but as a Collector’s club member you have the right to choose to have your coins graded in the US and if you put the time, have them Trueviewed too. That’s what I do. I’d never had anything graded in Paris, but their Paris office is extremely convenient ever since the EU started enforcing the import laws and the VAT on services from countries outside the EU. We just FedEx them or deliver them in Paris, they do all the rest.
myEbay
DPOTD 3
How much would be the monthly wage $ as a PCGS or NGC grader ?
if it is near 4000usd/3500euro per month I can happily go grading coins in Europe.
Is grader's job how safe in long term or is there constant changes in personel ?
Meaning "a lot of movement in and out" in graders.
Obviously, because coin collectors are a minority of the world population in general. All you’re saying is that there are few young coin collectors relative to young people who don’t collect coins. That’s meaningless information. What percentage of older people collect coins? What percentage of young people collected coins 50 years ago? These would be much more useful statistics.
And statistics like Instagram visits are not “meaningless anecdotes”. A meaningless anecdote would be saying “If you go to coin shows there are few younger folks and fewer minorities” or “There are vastly fewer sales every year of proof and mint sets by the US Mint than there were 20, 30, 40 years ago.”
Gobrecht's Engraved Mature Head Large Cent Model
https://www.instagram.com/rexrarities/?hl=en
Excellent post !
I was a pinball player growing up ( influenced by the WHO pinball wizard) (and LOST interest ....coins continued to grab my attention and wallet.....nothing like learning about history thru coin collecting.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Rexford, That is I think you may just have to go revisit the dictionary and encyclopaedia as well. My points were lost on you about upside-down demographics. You think that stats like the decline in sales of proof and mint sets are anecdotal and useless? Wow, not much for discussion and think you entirely missed what I was attempting to point out.
I have collected for nearly 50 years and seen a lot - those are anecdotes and I freely admit that that is what a coin show visit is or the fact that there are NO informal neighborhood meetings of collectors or that coin club and show attendance is not only down amongst the younger demographic subjects but that relative interest is as well. HOWEVER, the "nuts and bolts" of collecting and what is generally and IMHO correctly so, is that overall interest in mint sales are an excellent reflector of the popularity of collecting. I thought you and other readers might take note of it and I simply referred to the proof and mint set sales but could go there with "special" silver eagles they produce - collectors used to get excited about a proof SAE mintage of 350,000 but now it takes 100k or less and that is with flippers gone rampant.
I think the point you may or may not have taken and hits the nail on the head is that 24k visits to a site is near to not only meaningless in comparison to internet visits to so very many alternative sites but IS NOT COMPARABLE to coin club or show attendance. Firstly, because that is a minuscule number comparatively speaking but also secondarily because the effort to click a button and visit an internet site is such a very low energy proposition compared to the other two activities cited.
You may in fact want to visit a large regional show and see for yourself the demographics rationally - they are very similar to the picture I showed. Don't take my word for it, but most certainly there are fewer young collectors and interest in YN materials and events (this does not mean there is NO participation, but rather greatly diminished).
Obviously I am not a dealer but rather a pragmatic collector and so enjoy thoroughly informative posts to which I also attempt to contribute. It is most amusing how these posts deteriorate polemically.
Well, just Love coins, period.
You can constructively disagree without becoming personal as you did.
Latin American Collection
I believe that is a two-way street Sir ( and I am not referring to you) as dismissively describing honest observations and thought as "meaningless" would fit your category.
Well, just Love coins, period.
@7Jaguars
Why should mint sales be a reflection of popularity of collecting coins.
I disagree it’s the “nuts and bolts “ of
collecting ….maybe for you it was .
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
I don’t think because people disagree they didn’t understand the point being made. Or that their opinions are polemical but yours are not.
The contrary view is that coin shows and mint sets are not a good indicator because they don’t matter anymore. People of all ages don’t feel the need to go to shows, which can be far from home and a lot more than a little inconvenient, when you can see everything online. Certainly not as often.
Interest in mint sets and any commemorative products from the world’s mints was destroyed years ago when the number of issues mushroomed. I’ve heard many collectors say they’ve actually stopped buying them because there are so many. (And yes that’s anecdotally. None of the views on this thread have any statistically significant facts attached to them). A similar attempt at milking collectors did for stamps but luckily coin collecting has more strength and depth.
Oh and incidentally - in the 80s, Madonna was way more popular than coins. She would’ve absolutely hammered Nikki Minaj on TikTok too.
Hard to argue with that reasoning, except I'd bet a silver eagle that if we went back in time and put Madonna up against Nikki Minaj on TikTok, that Nikki would break her and make her cry, but then that Madonna crying video would get the most clicks.
Very well said.
@7Jaguars, I think almost every point you made in your last comment can be countered with “correlation does not imply causation.”
Incidentally, I am a younger collector (24), so call me biased but I think I may have a better picture of how my particular collecting demographic is faring.
Gobrecht's Engraved Mature Head Large Cent Model
https://www.instagram.com/rexrarities/?hl=en
Coin collecting has been around in some form or fashion since the first 2 different coins were created thousands of years ago. If every collector in the world quit tomorrow, then coin collecting will last at least until I die, because I am not stopping until I can’t see or run out of money.
I consider myself a pretty deep player in the coin world (not money, but knowledge, study, historical basis, time spent, etc.). So, let’s consider a few things.
Years 6-12 - Coins were great as the novelty of the new hobby set in and I got to hang out with my grandad. Visited a few local shops, never went to a show, got mint sets and proof sets from relatives.
Years 13-20 - Coins, I think they are in a box somewhere, don’t care as girls, sports and this new Atari thing was so much cooler. No shows, no shops, no coins from the mint.
Years 21-27 - Coins, save enough of them and you can buy beer. Also, they work for buying pizza. Went to 100x more bars, restaurants, etc. than coin shops or shows and wasn’t sure if the mint still made sets or not.
Years 28-40 - Coins, wow I have some money lying around because of this job thing and can pursue a hobby that I did when I was young but haven’t thought about in a long time. Less bars, more shows and shops. Joined a coin club and had fun.
Years 40-now. Coins, how did I entertain myself without them? Very few bars, very few shops and a few shows and rarely make it to a club meeting. This internet thing became my coin collecting co-pilot because I can accomplish way more and still have time for my family and other things. Still not interested in sets from the mint.
To me, each generation of collectors does things their way. I don’t know how many young collectors there are because I don’t do their forms of social media. Quite frankly, I’ve never seen more interest in the hobby than now. There are so many avenues to collect and so many ways to access coins and share them. Heck, I wish the generations of folks that thought cleaning coins, writing inventory numbers on coins and putting preservatives like lacquer on coins didn’t collect coins as they did more harm than good.
https://www.pcgs.com/SetRegistry/collectors-showcase/world-coins/one-coin-per-year-1600-2017/2422
Nicely laid out, @MrBreeze
My journey was similar, but it was my oldest brother I got to hang out with when I was a kid.
I see it as my responsibility to the hobby to expose my boys to coin collecting in their pre-teen years in hopes that one day, when they have a steady stream of disposable income, they would turn to a hobby that feels more familiar because of some childhood memories of spending time with their dad.
8 Reales Madness Collection
My boys have a somewhat interest however they enjoy going to shows with me and appreciate the historical connections coin collecting offers .
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
friendly, ethical, cool family man with nice coins - just the kind of dealer I like doing business with