In A Coming (?) Future Cashless Society...
edgar
Posts: 886 ✭✭✭✭
If the expected cashless society should come to fruition, and existing circulating coinage is rendered obselete and withdrawn from circulation, what would be the state of current collections/collectors?
Would current non-PM coinage plummet to intrinsic values? Would the government continue to produce NCLT for collectors? What would come of the collector industry?
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I firmly believe you would have an entire market that trades between themselves for many things. You can't stop barter! This would alienate each side from many things.
Farmer John says if you want my fresh beef you better come up with something besides that electronic BS!
Good questions. How much of the collector market today is made up of clad coins? I think silver coins might stick around for a while as barter items in a gray/black market. The older PM coins with a high numismatic value will continue to be collected and traded. If the government put some time limit on turning over your stash of clad coins for equal credit in your digital account that would probably soak up much of the clad.
Probably no change at all I would imagine. Take a look at all of the coins in a 7070 type set. Nearly all of them are obsolete but they are still sought after and in may cases, quite valuable.
This is the precedent.
Granted, if money were to go away then the collector base might diminish a bit, but not entirely by any means.
But, I don't expect to ever see a totally cashless society, at least not in the lifetime of anyone reading this.
Barter and black market will remain.
Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc
We know exactly what happens. Look at the Euro replacing national coinage. You will see no immediate change in anything. 50 years from now...
For better or worse, it won't matter to me by then.
@jmlanzaf said: We know exactly what happens. Look at the Euro replacing national coinage. You will see no immediate change in anything. 50 years from now...
you beat me to the punch, this was my thinking.
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety," --- Benjamin Franklin
If cashless society becomes the norm, no doubt that there will be people who are outliers.
For these outliers I can see some of them being coin collectors, who for whatever reason, remain dedicated to the hobby of kings.
Gollum (of The Lord Of The Rings fame) comes to mind when I envision a dystopian cashless world where in remote, hidden, dark corners (i.e. a "coin room" built as part of an underground bunker/bolt hole in New Zealand) an outlier is seen with his pretty calling it..................... "My Precious!!!!!
Come to think of the above,........................ at times I (and likely other forumites) think "I resemble that remark"
Common material will plunge in value as the number of collectors declines. The stage for this is already set. Go to the grocery store and watch how people pay. It's mostly by credit card. Young people just want to wave their phones in front of some terminal.
Coins would be more collectable if they stopped making them. They would only be looked at as collectibles and antiques with no modern coin counterparts for people to lump them in with. Young people would have no reference if they were born after coins stopped being used for commerce and they wouldn’t completely understand them but still might like them as antiques
The mint or private minters would make precious metal NCLT but the legal tender part would be even more fake than it is with Silver Eagles, but would satisfy people who collect modern coins just like they are satisfied now collecting proof sets and silver and gold eagles.
Mr_Spud
The three most studied things when it comes to ancient civilizations are what they lived in, what they ate, what they used for currency
I would love to operate cashlessly (personally) and have never tied my collecting to pocket change. Art collectors don’t paint or sculpt and comic book collectors don’t get the newspaper anymore.
Every change has affects and collateral damage, but I think the hobby would be fine.
*just a note - I don’t think we can go completely digital. There are too many people who are unbanked and I hope we don’t go completely cashless, for reasons not pertaining to this hobby.
I don't think this is a hypothetical, it is almost a certainty. It will not have to be forced, it will be a logical choice, a continuation of what we are seeing today.
So it is fair to say that coins and paper money are in the process of becoming obsolete, yet I believe the hobby is surviving, with some common coins reaching new highs.
I believe this bodes well for the future of the hobby.
Be very careful in what you wish for and what you predict... A cashless society will produce more problems than conveniences.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Some states have laws that require businesses to accept cash, so we're a long way away....
Ah. I’m ok thinking about cash less society but I’m thinking your forgetting about the rest of the world.
Second and third world countries are just not going to be using CC’s at the village atm. Just way way too many people , too many languages and different cultures.
American, sure , other countries like us probably, the other giant portion of humanity will barter and have been for 10,000 years or more.
Just my opinion 😉🙀🦫
Edit to add. Yes , I’ve seen the pictures of very remote use of technology 🤨 but I believe I’m being clear about my point 👍🏼
🎶 shout shout, let it all out 🎶
WoW! some of the comments so far are "exactly what I was thinking", and some are "I never considered that!"
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Even if coins are no longer used in general commerce, there will always be a segment of the population that will want to exchange tangible items. Today's bulk circulating coins will be tomorrow's barter material. New coin collectors will emerge from exposure to "antique" (outdated) coins.
But a new kind of collector is already emerging from the precious metals "stacker" ranks. Gold and silver will always be viewed as valuable assets. I have seen several "stackers" who have branched out into scarcer forms of metal (rare coins, unusual bars, limited-edition modern issues, etc.).
Coins (and gold and silver) are money, and people will always be attracted to that.
PS:
There will always be places such as this:
"Republic credits are no good out here. I need something more real."
(Star Wars quote).
Cashless will be fun when the network goes down, the electric goes out, or any number of other issues.
So who here knows or is keeping up with production at the BPE?(maybe not the right abr. but I'm not into paper money!) If we are going that fast towards a cashless society then the amount of banknotes needed would decline dramatically.
BEP
https://www.bep.gov/currency/production-figures/monthly-production-reports
Amount of banknotes printed does appear to be declining...although it's a little uneven
https://www.bep.gov/currency/production-figures/annual-production-reports
Coin roll hunting may become difficult in a cashless society.
Aside from that, I don't see much impact. Years ago collectors may have started by looking through pocket change, but I don't think many collectors under 60 years old started that way.
LIBERTY SEATED DIMES WITH MAJOR VARIETIES CIRCULATION STRIKES (1837-1891) digital album
One upside is fewer modern parking lot "error" finds threads to avoid.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
I might be the minority here, old and gray, but I have around $50 in my wallet for around a month. Everything is with CC.........
Mike
My Indians
Dansco Set
I think it's coming faster than we think.
Successful BST deals with mustangt and jesbroken. Now EVERYTHING is for sale.
There is a huge difference between people opting to use electronic methods and the gov't requiring it.
I also do not use cash very often - usually only for tips. But that is my choice.
No. Me. Also. Rarely spend cash.
Rarely use plastic. I always use cash. When technology fails or there is a long power outage (Blizzard of '78, no power around here for a week) what will plastic or waving a non working phone do? I see people that use only plastic going bananas when the card reader at the coffee shop isn't working. I can only imagine how bleeped they would be if it was a week.
Successful BST with ad4400, Kccoin, lablover, pointfivezero, koynekwest, jwitten, coin22lover, HalfDimeDude, erwindoc, jyzskowsi, COINS MAKE CENTS, AlanSki, BryceM
I use cash often. Sometimes CC's... A cashless society is not in the foreseeable future. That would be utopia for government control, so an objective, certainly - but a long way from reality. Cheers, RickO
During the 04 blackout, businesses were incapable of doing cash business also. They couldn't calculate bills with tax and their inventory system is digital also. This is not 1978.
How many here pay bills in person with cash?
I only withdraw cash for coin shows and to keep a few bucks in my pocket. Otherwise all credit card (various benefits including extended warranty, easy way to track spending, points, etc.) We’re basically already cashless.
@jmlanzaf You can go to the store with cash. They can figure out how much you owe on a calculator or a phone. With no power you get no food with plastic. Thats my point.
Successful BST with ad4400, Kccoin, lablover, pointfivezero, koynekwest, jwitten, coin22lover, HalfDimeDude, erwindoc, jyzskowsi, COINS MAKE CENTS, AlanSki, BryceM
Except they can't easily do it. Happened in 2004. Even some businesses with power couldn't do transactions because they couldn't access their inventory systems.
@jmlanzaf I understand your point, but the small corner store near your house could sell food for cash during an outage.
Successful BST with ad4400, Kccoin, lablover, pointfivezero, koynekwest, jwitten, coin22lover, HalfDimeDude, erwindoc, jyzskowsi, COINS MAKE CENTS, AlanSki, BryceM
in the present day a power outage is crippling, in a cashless and totally digital society any power outage for an extended period would cause panic. don't they make movies about that sort of stuff??
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety," --- Benjamin Franklin
I don’t know. I have a solar linked generator and just about every business and frankly home, has something.
Ofcourse, I live rather rural, so we tend to plan ahead. Also, this tiny town spends a goodly amount of time, bartering. 😉🙀🦫
🎶 shout shout, let it all out 🎶
A cashless society would be vulnerable to EMP attack. A nuclear exchange would wipe out infrastructure. The potential for the current conflict with Russia to evolve into WW3 very strong IMV.
So a cashless society is nothing but a bunch of foolishness preached by naive people who really are not looking at the big picture (or push by elite dominate further). Plus it would evolve into some kind of fee / usury rip off system. Not to mention enable elite have more power over individual.
What we need to be asking what will be the new medium of exchange in a dire scenario. Silver and gold coinage would be a good backup and easy system to assimilate into.
I would think that in a cashless system there would be a lot more fees. And banks would achieve their ultimate dream to charge you negative interest rates on your money.
What’s more likely lol is a post emp burst society - steam locos, horse n buggy, and gold and silver coins / cash king.
Yes cashless system they would rip you on fees, privacy, plus have the power to block you from buying / selling. Insane
There probably wb colonies where people off grid using cash / barter. Then eventually a revolution overthrow the digital system.
In a cashless system, somebody you don't know gets to decide whether or not you can spend your money, and what you can spend it on. But hey, I'm sure there's probably nothing to worry about there.
This sounds like misinformation. I'll have to report you to the Minister of Disinformation. Expect DHS troopers to be paying you a visit late one night in the near future.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Ahh, but it's not. PayPal already prohibits you from spending your own money on certain items that are legal to own. As well, there are other things you can spend your money on but you need to get their permission first.
I think some cars would still work. I forget the date - I think it was late 1970s or early 1980s - but cars prior to that date did not generally have electronics (electrical wiring yes, but no electronics). Of course, getting gas would be another story.
But post-EMP would be catastrophic. I'm surprised there hasn't been a disaster movie made about that.
In my worst case senario I could use my ole MF diesel tractor! It might go 20 MPH and I could pull a hay wagon for others to come along! It doesn't even need a battery to run!
Diesel unlike this crap gas we are forced to use has a very long shelf life!