Thoughts on this eBay seller?
As a toned Lincoln cent collector, I noticed a certain eBay seller by the name "mikesmountainvalues", who I'm sure some of you have seen before as well. He auctions dozens of toned BN Lincoln cents every week, all graded by NGC. What I find concerning is that they all appear to me artificially toned, yet they still straight graded. I attached a screenshot below, as well as a link to his store. If they were all to cross to PCGS, the BN Lincoln cent pop reports would be completely ruined (but that's the point, they wouldn't straight grade, because they all seem to be AT).
Do you agree that they are artificial? Shouldn't NGC do something about this?
@giorgio11 @LincolnCentMan @KYCopperCoins @david3142 @mach1ne @robec
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I've seen similar coins in PCGS slabs. If you want PCGS slabbed coins, why not just buy PCGS coins?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire2 -
One thing for sure - his AT system is more consistent than Mc Donalds French Fries. I am not sure why NGC grades these. The consistent color over years of Lincoln cents from all three mints is nothing short of remarkable.
WS
Proud recipient of the coveted PCGS Forum "You Suck" Award Thursday July 19, 2007 11:33 PM and December 30th, 2011 at 8:50 PM.1 -
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This is a commonly stated concern elsewhere online. It has been pointed out to NGC numerous times but they haven't changed their standards. It's a little too suspicious to me; all of his copper is the same color of blue. Obvious MS70 artificial toning to even the most novice toned collector.
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I bought a matte proof from them a couple years ago and asked how come they had so many matte proofs. They said they had bought many to take pictures because they were writing a book.
Is using MS70 causing coins to be artificially toned? There are arguments for and against that. I do find it interesting CentSearcher that your icon seems to have had MS70.
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A couple of years ago i bought 4 or 5 raw IHC from him and sent to PCGS for grading, all but one graded and it came back “questionable color “ ….they are certainly tempting, but clearly someone is going on…
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I’ve noticed these as well, and I’m guessing they have been dipped and re-colored. Way too uniform. NGC seems to be biting on these.
My dealer friend claims copper is dipped way more than silver. Not sure I agree, but that’s his claim. Anyway, this seller clearly has it down to a science. Something fishy is going on here, IMO.
Dave
Always looking for original, better date VF20-VF35 Barber quarters and halves, and a quality beer.0 -
I've seen some in hand. They look good. I think that's why NGC gives 'em a pass.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
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When that seller was relatively new i was outbid, in small increments, on several listings by a bidder with very low feedback and a high percentage of bids with that seller. Not enough evidence to prove shill bidding, but enough to make me not want to bid on their items.
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@CentSearcher said:
If they were all to cross to PCGS, the BN Lincoln cent pop reports would be completely ruined (but that's the point, they wouldn't straight grade, because they all seem to be AT).
This is a ridiculous assumption, there are many coins with the signature MS70 look (including your icon coin) in PCGS plastic, this "debate" and the companion arguments over AT or not have been going on for decades. Both TPG's have no problems placing these coins into their respective brand of plastic. Also, as there is no consensus that has determined the use of MS70 as "doctoring" you're calling out any TPG and asking "shouldn't they do something about this" is a violation of the posting rule #2
2 Posts must not contain libelous (accusatory, attacking) remarks concerning any individual, company, or other entity.
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They are apparently acceptable to NGC. If they are not acceptable to you then do not buy them. In a similarly vein, there are several sellers of foreign coins in PCGS holders that are straight graded and an enormous number of their coins appear to have been made intentionally and they have been doing this for years and PCGS has been certifying them (or turning a blind eye to them) for years. I won't buy them.
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@TomB said:
They are apparently acceptable to NGC. If they are not acceptable to you then do not buy them. In a similarly vein, there are several sellers of foreign coins in PCGS holders that are straight graded and an enormous number of their coins appear to have been made intentionally and they have been doing this for years and PCGS has been certifying them (or turning a blind eye to them) for years. I won't buy them..
will you post one example to get some of us in the ball park?
<--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -1 -
I guess NGC doesn't care that the all look the same. I personally would never buy copper that looks like that...
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Sorry, I didn't intend to break any rules or attack anybody from this question. I just wanted to hear some other opinions and gain more knowledge, I don't know much about this MS70 coin cleaning stuff
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@davewesen said:
I bought a matte proof from them a couple years ago and asked how come they had so many matte proofs. They said they had bought many to take pictures because they were writing a book.Is using MS70 causing coins to be artificially toned? There are arguments for and against that. I do find it interesting CentSearcher that your icon seems to have had MS70.
Looks like MS70 is a very common answer in this thread, and I guess it makes sense. Do you really think my icon had MS70 used on it? Here is the full TV:
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yes on reverse, no on obverse ... it could use it though, might remove some of dirt and fingerprint remnants.
the link to your showcase, goes to this thread
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@davewesen said:
yes on reverse, no on obverse ... it could use it though, might remove some of dirt and fingerprint remnants.the link to your showcase, goes to this thread
Thanks for pointing that out, I just fixed it. It should take you to my showcase now
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or impious. <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -0 -
I was going to skip that particular definition, but I suppose the choice of TPG could be a sort of religious experience for some...
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LMAO at this thread.
Maybe y'all should either embrace all blue copper or reject all blue copper. Some very tiny nits are being picked here.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
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@alpha33 said:
Maybe I should have said misleading/fraudulent. I see no difference with these "Artificially Toned" coins or say a 1944 d that has been altered into a 1914 d, or a 1909VDB with an aftermarket "S" added. My 2cents...........................Sad that you cannot differentiate the difference between actual fraud and a practice that is widely accepted by the entire hobby including PCGS.
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@jmlanzaf said:
LMAO at this thread.Maybe y'all should either embrace all blue copper or reject all blue copper. Some very tiny nits are being picked here.
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so what you are saying is, "how much nit can a nitpick pick if a nitpick could pick nits" <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -3 -
He can pick them all!
@LanceNewmanOCC said:
@jmlanzaf said:
LMAO at this thread.Maybe y'all should either embrace all blue copper or reject all blue copper. Some very tiny nits are being picked here.
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so what you are saying is, "how much nit can a nitpick pick if a nitpick could pick nits"5 -
@coinbuf said:
@alpha33 said:
Maybe I should have said misleading/fraudulent. I see no difference with these "Artificially Toned" coins or say a 1944 d that has been altered into a 1914 d, or a 1909VDB with an aftermarket "S" added. My 2cents...........................Sad that you cannot differentiate the difference between actual fraud and a practice that is widely accepted by the entire hobby including PCGS.
I'm not sure I would go so far as to say that artificial toning is widely accepted...
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
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Lost in the acrimony is that the standard is no longer NT/AT, but rather MA/QC - Market Acceptable and Questionable Color...
As long as people happily buy them, they're MA.
-----Burton
ANA 50+ year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
Author: 3rd Edition of the SampleSlabs book, https://sampleslabs.info/1 -
@BStrauss3 said:
Lost in the acrimony is that the standard is no longer NT/AT, but rather MA/QC - Market Acceptable and Questionable Color...As long as people happily buy them, they're MA.
And it's not fraud to sell them.
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@MasonG said:
And it's not fraud to sell them.Lots of people here need to learn the difference between morally questionable actions and actually illegal acts.
It's easy to throw around "criminal" but it isn't even close.
-----Burton
ANA 50+ year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
Author: 3rd Edition of the SampleSlabs book, https://sampleslabs.info/1 -
@BStrauss3 said:
@MasonG said:
And it's not fraud to sell them.Lots of people here need to learn the difference between morally questionable actions and actually illegal acts.
It's easy to throw around "criminal" but it isn't even close.
I'd say "morally questionable" isn't even close, either. The coins in question were graded by NGC as market acceptable. If you don't like them, you don't have to buy them. Based on the seller's feedback, others have different opinions.
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He has bought a few coins from me on ebay. A CWT which I thought was AU58 and an 1897 1 in neck Indian, are a couple of them. He did what he does to them and resold them on ebay. They both came back from NGC, MS65 BN. I only have the obverse pic of the 1897. I thought the numerous hits and the wear on the hair curl kept it from being MS.
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Two points:
1) Conserving a coin to make it more aesthetic or marketable is a common practice. Perhaps through dipping or chemical means, SSCA gold for example. Aesthetics sells.
2) Inquiry regarding subjective opinion directly relating to a TPG grading standard that on the surface seems inconsistent is not libelous.
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@amwldcoin said:
He can pick them all!@LanceNewmanOCC said:
@jmlanzaf said:
LMAO at this thread.Maybe y'all should either embrace all blue copper or reject all blue copper. Some very tiny nits are being picked here.
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so what you are saying is, "how much nit can a nitpick pick if a nitpick could pick nits"You do know that nits are the eggs of head lice and crabs? Pick away!
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Please review:
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1009079/pcgs-forum-rules-and-guidelines-updated-4-19-20212. Posts must not contain libelous (accusatory, attacking) remarks concerning any individual, company, or other entity.
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