Does an Auction House have a duty to insure that slabbed coins have been removed from the registry?
coinkat
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I am unable to edit the Poll- I understand it does not work- answer if you like
For question 1, a simple yes or no is fine and if you wish to explain your yes or no that is fine
For question two, the options are 1. Auction House; 2. Consignor; or 3. New owner
Just curious as to what folks here think
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Does an Auction House have a duty to insure that slabbed coins have been removed from the registry?
This is a private poll: no-one will see what you voted for.
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This poll isn't a poll. But to answer your question, the responsibility belongs to the person who registered it. Can an auction house easily delete an item from someone else's registry?
This poll isn't a poll. But to answer your question, the responsibility belongs to the person who registered it. Can an auction house easily delete an item from someone else's registry?
+1.
Member ANA, SPMC, SCNA, FUN, CONECA
Can an auction house remove coins from the registry? I thought only PCGS/NGC or the owner could do this.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I've been asked that question several times by successful bidders and have inquired about it. My understanding is that if the registered owner doesn't remove the coin, the new owner is the one who must make the request and provide documentation to the applicable grading company.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I try to remember to remove any coins I sell, otherwise there is usually a friendly email from NGC or PCGS requesting that I approve the removal once requested by the new owner. On several occasions, however, I have received requests regarding coins I have not sold, in which case I decline- not sure if they are just a mistake or some type of scam.
Okay... setting up a poll is a technical challenge and I screwed up... Currently it is not a poll but a THREE part question
Does an Auction House have a duty to insure that slabbed coins have been removed from the registry?
Is the issue one of due diligence and accountability on the part of accepting a consignment? In other words, does an auction house have a duty to remind the consignor and insure that any slabbed coins are removed from the registry as a condition of acceptance of the consignment?
And if the coin is successfully auctioned, who has the ultimate responsibility to insure that the coin is deleted from the registry? Obviously the auction house cannot remove the coin directly from the registry, but do they have an obligation as part of their service and representations associated with the auction to call PCGS/NGC or who and make the request that the coin be deleted?
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
To pawn the responsibility of coin removed from the registry onto a successful bidder and someone who is technically a customer of the Auction House is not a good look and it is miserable customer service...
Clearly this is an issue that can and should be resolved prior to auction.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
As much as I would like coins I buy to have a clear title to the registry, It's just not possible unless an agreement was made between the Auction Houses and PCGS to automatically remove any registered coin when it comes to auction. It does seem like it would be very easy to arrange to me! It also seems with all the software tracking sales and such it could simply be done with a program.
Seems an easy solution would be to have a simple question on the consignment form:
Are any of the slabbed coins referenced within this consignment registered in any registry set or in a registered inventory of any type? Yes___ No____
If yes, it is incumbent upon consignor to delete any such coins prior to auction listing.
This is not rocket science...
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Currently I am involved in precisely this situation. I purchased a coin from GreatCollections. I tried to add it, a box popped up saying the coin is in someone else's registry. The box allowed me to message the person to ask for it to be removed. I know from past experience that @MFeld is correct insofar as if the person does not remove the coin within 3 business days, I can contact PCGS with scans of the coin and they will remove it. All in all, I look at the inability to add the coin immediately to my registry as a trivial problem. Eventually this will be corrected and until then I have other issues I count as more serous to worry about, such as what will I have for dinner tonight.
I fail to appreciate why an auction house needs to manage another company’s business practice. Not how the business world works.
BTW, This question has been debated on the registry forum.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
I agree with 96% of what has already been said above
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Bad transactions with : nobody to date
Lol. What's the 4%?
[It's me, isn't it?]
maybe there are counterfeits with the same cert
I have bought a few coins when they were still registered. This includes coins I have bought from coin shows, stack and bowers, and eBay. I put in the request to add and usually it gets added within a business day to me. For PCGS, they did require me to take a picture of the coin next to a time and calendar to be able to add.
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No @jmlanzaf , I "agreed" with your statement
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Bad transactions with : nobody to date
I suppose I should have looked at the Registry forum first
But it is the business of the Auction House to offer coins...coins that should have no strings attached... before accepting a consignment. It becomes their business based upon what their business is which is offering a service that should meet expectations of those that choose to bid. The Auction House has the ability to prevent this from being the issue that it is. Yes... it is that simple and straight forward.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
The answer is no, but the poll does not work............ Auction houses have nothing to do with it, they auction coins..........
Best, SH
@spacehayduke
The Auction house plays a significant role because they auction the coins... and that is their business so it really has everything to do with it. I write my check out to the Auction house- they handle the coin and offer it in the stream of commerce as their service. It is incumbent upon them to deliver the coin free and clear of issues not described or disclosed as part of the auction itself. A buyer should not be placed in the position of undertaking a task that should rest with the consignor/Auction House. This task can best be resolved by them as it within their control.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Every so often I get an email from a buyer that the coin they bought from me (which was consigned by someone else) can't be added to their registry. I can then talk to my consignor in hopes that they're the one who registered the coin, but I can't do anything more than be middle man. At least for PCGS, I don't even have a way to find out WHICH registry the coin is in... I'd have to look through every possible choice by hand and see if I can find the coin.
I can help a buyer, but given that even if a coin was never previously put in a registry any random person could add it during the auction by typing in the cert number shown in the photo, there's only so much I can do. It would be an enormous amount of work given (especially given the information easily made available about a given coin's current status) to ensure up front that every coin listed for auction is not also listed in a registry set.
Hi Mark,
I can help with this - please e-mail me the item number (to ian@greatcollections.com) and we'll make it easy for you.
Best regards,
Owner/Founder GreatCollections
GreatCollections Coin Auctions - Certified Coin Auctions Every Week - Rare Coins & Coin Values
I've done this several times with auction wins. I feel it is the newest owner's responsibility to do so and is done quite easily and I have never had to prove anything, I just requested PCGS do so and a short while later it was done. I guess the only problem would be if the previous owner still claimed ownership. Never had that happen.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Ian, how do you make it easy? When we've contacted grading companies making such requests, we've been told that the current owner of the coin has to provide the information. Feel free to PM me if you'd rather not post it here. Thanks.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Because they are major stakeholders in the marketplace.
If they have the ability then they have the responsibility. I think they increased fees recently, and they have been busy. So they can make it happen if they want.
Hi Mark,
We call the consignor once we know the item number involved.
Owner/Founder GreatCollections
GreatCollections Coin Auctions - Certified Coin Auctions Every Week - Rare Coins & Coin Values
Btw - my feeling is that it should be seamless for the new owner. We had a situation recently over a $13 coin. Yes - we spent way too much time on it to get it removed from the registry set, but to some, a $13 coin is just the same as a $5,000 coin. I hate the idea that a client of ours has to prove they have the coin, when they just paid us money for.
We have also had rare situations where a cert # isn't displaying at PCGS or NGC. We take this as our responsibility to get fixed (and appreciate when members point them out to us so we can get them fixed as soon as possible).
Owner/Founder GreatCollections
GreatCollections Coin Auctions - Certified Coin Auctions Every Week - Rare Coins & Coin Values
@MFeld
@ianrussell
In view of the fact that Ian Russell and Mark Feld are both participating in this discussion, can both you of at least agree to make a recommendation to your receptive companies to simply add a question followed by a statement to your consignment forms:
Are any of the slabbed coins referenced within this consignment registered in any registry set or in a registered inventory of any type? Yes___ No____
If yes, it is incumbent upon consignor to delete any such coins prior to auction listing.
Seems this prevents the problem and provides a level of service that enhances the customer experience.
I will wait patiently for a reply
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Thanks, Ian. We've done that, but they haven't always cooperated quickly and the new owner has ended up having to make the request, himself.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Probably the easiest thing to do is for the auction house to require the consignor remove their ownership upon consigning the coin, now certainly there will be a few who do not, so if requested the auction house should merely contact the grading company with the registration number and inform them the coin was sold. Probably should be a mere check mark needed on the grading companies website for the auction house to press.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
I'll be happy to bring up the issue, here. However, on a practical basis, I don't think it's nearly as simple as you make it out to be.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I do photograph all of my coins so providing a picture is not that big of a deal.
My issue is that I usually want to add the new coin into my registry set that would upgrade my set's rank.
Timming here is everything.
Wayne
Kennedys are my quest...
Sorry, but I didn't think of a timing issue. I was never in a hurry, so it wasn't a great factor to me.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
@MFeld
@ianrussell
As to the auction house, it seems that in most instances it is this simple.
Seems an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure
Seems there will be estates that consign a collection and they simply may not know whether the collection was in or part of a registry set. The slab number could still be entered (verified) and that PCGS feature should indicate whether the coin is in a registry set. If that is the case, the deletion of the coins can still be completed prior to the auction listing.
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I get an email from NGC when someone purchases a coin that was in my registry. It says respond to release you have so many days…Yada yada
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As already mentioned, a registry coin can only be deleted by the owner of record or the grading company.
I don't think that someone who is about to purchase a coin in a private transaction or accept it on consignment is going to want to hold the coin hostage until the registered owner deletes it. If an estate were involved, it would likely be even (far) more complicated and time consuming to accomplish what you're proposing. Despite the thousands of coins we auction every month, this issue arises only on very rare occasions.
You wrote: "Seems an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure". But on a practical basis, I think you're proposing something more along the lines of "Seems a ton of prevention is worth an ounce of cure".
Despite my personal thoughts on this subject, I have forwarded your suggestion, as you requested.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
There ain't no such thing as a free lunch. Somebody would have to pay for that (typically unneeded) "ton of prevention". Any volunteers?
The better question: why doesn't PCGS use the data they get from major auction houses to automatically remove these coins from registry sets when they sell? I understand that GC data doesn't get populated, but heritage, stacks, etc do. This could be programmatic and would eliminate a lot of work for all parties involved, including PCGS.
Aercus Numismatics - Certified coins for sale
If the auction house is to remove something from the registry, it shouldn't be until the items sells and is paid for. That said, I don't think they should bother with this unless they can automate the process. The responsibility for removing it is that of the seller (or consignor), but if they don't for whatever reason (forgetting, malice, death, ...), it's easy and fairly quick for the buyer to get it taken care of. The only possible problem might arise when a coin is purchased just before the deadline for Registry awards.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
If a coin is visible in a registry set you can find out where it is on the cert verification page.
@MFeld
I really do not see how a simple addition to a consignment creates an imposition on an Auction House. I see this as part of the solution for several reasons- some have been noted... others have not.
We can just agree to disagree.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I'll argue the flip side here. I last touched a registry set (after a very, very brief foray) probably around 2003. If any coins I've acquired since are in registries, I have no idea. I personally couldn't care less about them, and if someone in the ownership failed to remove a coin or someone lifted the cert number, it makes no difference to me (the latter is disingenuous and I don't like it, but that's an aside). There isn't so much as a good way for me to easily find out if the coins I own are in registry sets. Cert verification doesn't take you to the set where the coin lives if it's in one. So if I were to consign any of my coins, I could answer "probably not" to your question, but I don't know with true certainty.
I'd suggest a different approach. First, cert verification should point to where the coin lives if it's in a registry set. Second, at least for the major auction houses (this is harder to do for smaller operations), have PCGS and NGC allow for the auction house to force remove a coin from a registry if they've sold it. It's the honor system (and there's no reason to think these firms are anything but completely honest) but if the winner of a coin says they can't add the coin to their registry set, someone at GreatCollections or Heritage or wherever just says "yup, Joe bought the coin from us so we know this request is legit" and they release the coin. Maybe it's not foolproof in case Joe immediately flips the coin and then wants to add it to a set after selling it, but no system is totally perfect. Maybe this only works within a certain time limit from the sale, or the coin can only be removed from a set if it was in that registry set prior to the auction end date, meaning it was locked at the time of the sale.
The simple solution to me is what I suggested above. As an example....Heritage had a PCGS Certified coin in their auction. How hard could it be with a little cooperation to have PCGS remove the coin from a registry as obviously the coin will be going to a new owner. It would be very easy to create a program which could automatically remove the certified coin from the set registry. Then Heritage would just have to enter the Cert Number in the auction listing like sellers do on ebay.
Rather than quote several above. Regarding an estate sale. I recently had this issue. I purchased around 70 coins from a registry set that was auctioned for the estate of the deceased owner. I was able to provide PCGS with the auction results and finally able to convince them to retire the set. Unfortunately due to a software issue it still did not release the coins! I was not about to spend what would likely take me a long day to photograph and send pictures of all those coins to the PCGS set Registry. I had several conversations with PCGS but they would not release the coins without my pictures. So I just waited....seems like 6-8 weeks and my coins were finally freed!
Oh hey, look at that. For what it's worth, that's hard enough to find that on the MANY times I've checked a cert for this specific reason, I've never noticed it. Here's a coin I was recently asked about:
All of the coin-specific information is at the top, followed by (in this case a nonexistent) list of auction results. The registry note looks like an afterthought. I'd think that should just be with the rest of the coin details, "Registry: Member of the ____ set"
My frustration is when I buy a coin on great collections, find it is still registered in a set when I try to add it, request the removal through set registry, and the set it's currently in refused to release it. Had to butt heads on that one before. But with my proof of purchase dated and imaged, the register eventually released it for me.
Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc
The simple answer to the question: Does an auction house have a duty to insure that a slabbed coin has been removed from the registry?
No.
The TPGs have a system in place to deal with this situation. Why is this not acceptable?
Yes, make the auction house responsible for making sure a cert is active. This takes time. Time is money, then watch action fee’s go up another 2% to pay for this, the auction house could remove it and then before it gets to the winning bidder someone else could have registered it again, a never ending process.
I recently bought some coins from a forum member and when I went to add them to my registry set ATS they wouldn't register but they sent the previous owner an email and stated that if there was no reply within 3 days then they would be registered to my set. I of course let the previous owner know of the situation as soon as I couldn't register them and he removed his registry listing. I also had the same issue when I sold one of my registered coins and I got an email from NGC and promptly removed it.
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When I auctioned a set a number of years ago, one of the auction company representatives contacted me a couple days before the auction to request I remove the coins from the registry so the new owners could immediately register them when the auction was completed. I was a bit surprised since it seemed to me that I shouldn't unregister the coin until payment was received or at least until the auction was over. But I went ahead and unregistered as requested.
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