How do you decide to sell a raw coin versus having it graded and selling?
Herb_T
Posts: 1,755 ✭✭✭✭✭
When I look through eBay it seems that most sellers have their raw coins priced like they are graded. Buyers take the risk of buying a coin from a photo and hoping that the coin hasn’t been cleaned or is counterfeit (seller may or may not be aware of this). A vast majority like to say that the coins are AU++++. What are your thoughts on this?
2
Comments
To bring back an old phrase..."There is no Santa Claus (in numismatics)". The general theory is that if a coin valued above $xx, is raw, it's raw for a reason. You get to pick the value of $xx, but it's at least the cost of slabbing fees and shipping. I wouldn't buy a coin over $500 raw unless it was slabbed or I knew the seller really well.
It's a myth that a graded coin is worth more than a raw coin. It is easier to sell the graded coin. But an AU Morgan $ has the same value in or out of the holder.
Sadly, many coins have been "graded," and many owners are not pleased with the results. The coin is subsequently cracked out and offered raw, usually at what the owner believes the grade should be and not necessarily what the Service gave the grade.
peacockcoins
Do you believe eBay grading descriptions of raw coins are accurate?
Estimate the amount you can get for the ungraded coin.
Estimate the amount you can get for the graded coin.
Calculate the cost of grading and postage.
Estimate whether the higher amount you can get for the graded coin is more than the cost to get it graded.
Factor in the increased liquidity of the graded coin.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I have a coin graded if I believe it deserves to be in a slab. Usually a 63,64 or higher coin that can sell for a amount that covers my cost of the coin plus the grading fees. If I believe a coin does not deserve grading it will go on Ebay at some point. When selling the coin on Ebay I do not grade it I just put my price on the coin and let it roll.
Mostly I only submit Mercury Dimes before 1934. Sometimes I slip a late date, usually with tone, in but I am looking for MS66 or better on the late dates.
Ken
I am at a point where I only carry TPG graded coins in my inventory.
I sold all my raw coins that are not worth getting graded.
When buying new raw coins, I only buy coins that I plan on getting certified.
I got an awesomely rare raw coin in a few days again, It will got out in the next submission.
If it's a coin that's frequently counterfeited it's probably a good idea to get it certified. Just make sure it's a reputable service. I once saw a 21-D walker where the D was rolling around in the slab.
As far as grading, you really got to learn the series yourself. I've bought a couple dog ugly overgraded PCGS coins recently. And does anyone think PCGS can solve the problem of coins rotating in the holder in another 35 years? 50 years? Never? Has kind of turned me off to completing my type set quite frankly...
In general though I'd rather buy coins other people have paid to get graded rather than do it myself. Shipping and insurance and all that drama waiting just isn't worth it to me.
>
Rotating a coin into alignment in a PCGS holder is very, very easy, you just have to get very aggressive
When you are looking at the raw coins on ebay are you looking at the asking prices or the sold prices? There very often is quite a difference there depending on the coin. A seller can ask anything, what it actually sells for may be a very different story.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
There were not any around so I made 2, sold one.
If seeing in hand, what's wrong with buying raw, no matter the price. I acknowledge slabs will always sell easier, you'll get a better price, a larger audience, and can even sell sight unseen.
I've cracked close to 100 Morgans for my albums. I think I have a good eye for grading them, experience the teacher, and I recently sold my LOC album with about 50 raw Morgans to my local B&M. Common dates were low BU, better dates were VF-AU, and the semis & keys were VG-VF. I sold for $4,300 and think I got 15% back of realized auction prices, but a nice profit from when I purchased. The most expensive was a nice original VF20 79CC that I wanted $300 and a nice VG8 93CC for $250. Owner said my grades were spot on. I had everything catalogued. Price realized was not too different if all were graded. Even when selling slabs I usually get the 10% back.
Well, if the value is what buyers are willing to pay, apparently the value is higher for slabbed coins.
Here is an example of a coin that I bought raw and absolutely had to be put into a TPG to increase value.
Note: just got this in and no prongs
I sell them raw starting at a dollar via auction , generally. They go for what they're worth. If graded, they might bring more but that also costs collectors more. There are still good finds in the raw to be graded, if one chooses. But there are still lots of album filling collectors to service. Of course when the ask price exceeds what a collector is willing to pay, then I will either cut the price of a buy now offering, or send it in for grading.
It's a very good question. There are complex issues. Now, for HIGH END coins ? I usually don't make my market there ; so my answer may vary greatly from others.
I do like to submit. It's just that I have to be selective
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
The value is not higher. What differs is usually the perception of grade or a "risk premium" for a sight unseen transaction. But if buyer and seller BOTH agree that the coin is an AU50 1883-O Morgan $, there is no price difference per any price guide.
Everyone pays for their education in this hobby. Some by thinking they are out-smarting the market and those that actually don't think of it as a market.
Agreed on price guide for the coin and condition.
Also agreed, the "risk premium" is less with slabbed coin.
After that, it's mostly semantics about the "value of the coin".
Consider, does provenance or pedigree change the value of the coin?
If so, then a guarantee of authenticity should as well.
am
I sold my Morgan collection raw to a dealer - factored in the costs of grading semikeys/keys and ebay fees, and it worked out to be about the same net for me, without the hassles of ebay buyers as an added bonus.
I think it depends upon how one "collects" in the first place. For me, I'm buying coins to fit into a 7070 album... raw, or cracked from slabs. If I like the coin and it fits with the rest of the set, it will go into the album. If/when I go to sell them, I'll likely get the higher end coins ($500+) recertified. I think authenticity on heavily counterfeited pieces brings out more bidders, making it worthwhile. For the rest, I'll likely put hi res images up on ebay. Better images go a long way to bring out more bidders and my prices realized reflect that.
...but who's to say what the Market will look like in 20 years...
Successful BST transactions with: SilverEagles92; Ahrensdad; Smitty; GregHansen; Lablade; Mercury10c; copperflopper; whatsup; KISHU1; scrapman1077, crispy, canadanz, smallchange, robkool, Mission16, ranshdow, ibzman350, Fallguy, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, jwitten, Walkerguy21D, dsessom.
No, but that’s the problem. Coins I might buy if they were accurately graded by the seller, but the sellers in many cases think their coin is AU when at best it is XF. Looking at photos that have poor exposure and are out of focus add to the doubt of the sellers so called grade and expected selling price.
This is true with all things equal, but the vast majority of the time the stated grade of the coin is inflated while they can’t do that for TPG coin.
In my shop I have a large vibrating bowl w/lid that I put parts in. I just turn that sucker on (with the lid in place) and put the corner on it and that coin will move faster than a second hand on a watch!
That’s the funny part, I offer what they are really worth and get turned down probably 75% of the time. I keep at it…..
But you are batting at 25% at your price. That sounds like you are doing great. Work harder. If you double your effort, you will double your 25% to 25%
Some sellers are very content to wait for the greater fool, nothing you can do about that but move on.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Is that a two cent coin? Nice 👍
Hoard the keys.
I would have anything over, say, $200 in value graded before selling if your talking about US Federal coins. Better yet, have some cons graded and experiment on eBay including comparable raw coins - if you're not in a hurry. You'll learn a lot just by selling a good sampling of coins without paying a lot in tuition, you needn't follow the advice of others.
Most of my collection would probably be considered raw because they are not encapsulated in a slab. They were professionally graded however. I have sent some of my higher valued coins into PCGS, not because I plan to sell them but I know one day, my wife or kids after I'm gone will likely sell them and I would like them to get the maximum value for them. I usually use $300 as a value on whether I will send them into to PCGS.
While I agree, saying the "vast majority of the time" is rather extreme. I'm more comfortable saying "there are times when."
My experience has been that “vast majority of the time” is more precise and closer to accurate than “there are times when”.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
All my listings have a more conservative grade than PCGS or NGC...
Even in the event that everyone agreed with your opinion of your own relative grades, I didn’t say “all of the time”.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Everyone agrees. LOL. That's why I don't get returns.
There goes my Pollyanna view of coin dealers.
The OP writes...
"When I look through eBay..."
It's not just dealers, is it though? Don't lots of collectors sell stuff on eBay, too?
Perception is reality.
If something is easier to sell and you consider time and the cost of money valuable a slabbed coin is more valuable than a raw coin. If I can turn a coin I paid $100 for and sell it for $120 in one day because it's slabbed and easier to sell it's more valuable than the $100 raw coin that sits in inventory for a year unsold but eventually gets sold for $120.
I like Marks answer, and I basically use the same. I only do it when cost effective
Approx value of price realized raw, vs holdered, and only if substantially more.
Also, if a coin has chance to get a potentially higher grade than I am thinking it is , may be worth submitting,
I also factor in time. lets say I Have raw coin that would bring 100 bucks, holdered it would bring 175.00, not worth the extra 20 bucks after submitial fee if it takes 3 months to come back, market could change, etc.
3 months to come back right now would be a miracle…
Assumes facts not in evidence.
If I can sell the same coin raw in one MONTH for $100 and you have to spend $40 and 2 months to sell it slabbed for $100 in 2 months plus one day, you've lost $40 and 1 month.
A $100 coin is $100 coin. Or is that too complicated?
I know a guy who has been waiting on CGC certification since April.
It’s not nearly as simple as you make it out to be. Many buyers won’t pay the same for an ungraded coin as for a graded one, even if they agree with the seller’s grade assessment.
If I know I can get $200 for an MS65 example of coin X, and you have an ungraded one for sale, I’m not going to pay you $200 for it. I’d pay about $150, figuring I’d have to pay grading fees and that there’d be some risk that the coin would grade less than 65. Sure, some collectors might pay you $200, but generally speaking, it’s not realistic to say that “A $100 coin is $100 coin”. Plus, you left out an “a” before the second “$100”.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I was trying to be concise.
Yes SOME people will only buy slabbed. Some people will only buy raw. Some people may pay a premium for a slab.
However, it does not follow that $100 coin is $150 coin in a slab. The slab makes it easier for the buyer and seller to reach a consensus on grade. That's why slabs were invented, actually. But it is a myth that a slabbed 65 is worth more than a raw 65. [Meaning that both parties agree that it is a 65.]
Yes, if the buyer is planning to slab it, he'll want to pay less based on the slab fees. But the seller doesn't care what you want to do with it. I'm not discounting a coin $50 because you want to slab it just like I'm not discounting a coin 10% because your state charges sales tax.
And, since concise was out, there is value added to a slab for an SVDB or 16D because of the sheer number of counterfeits or there. Most buyers will assign a risk premium to a raw coin.
But if you go back to the OP, my response was based on the assertion that ebay sellers are pricing raw coins as if they are slabbed. That implies that there is a difference between the two which is simply not generally the case. There is a single price for a 65, not a raw price and a slabbed price.
In fact, the 65 sight seen raw (grey) is almost always higher than the 65 slab (blue, sight unseen) because of the assumption that the slab is generic (possibly a C coin) and the sight seen (grey) price is based on both parties agreeing on the grade. This guide difference has existed for 25+ years.
Ease of sale on eBay is a little different issue because it is talking about a sight unseen environment where slabs are sometimes easier to sell. BUT that's not because the guide price is higher.
So much for concise. ..
And to make it more complex:
Would you pay more for a raw "65" from JA or a slabbed 65 from ebay?
It's really hard to argue with "A $100 coin is a $100 coin." LOL
Answer me this: "when is a $100 coin, a $150 coin?" Or, "when is a 60 year old, a 65 year old?"
Sorry, I still disagree with you about as much as I did when you were concise.👿
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
In exonumia, we still enjoy raw tokens and medals to a large extent. Though, the tide is definitely beginning to turn. Truthfully, it started long ago but as the prices realized are climbing steadily over the last decade, many collectors want that same assurance of grade/authenticity/protection they have with US Coins. Grading tokens and medals (for many reasons) is even more subjective than coins, so oftentimes it is more about eye appeal and lack of any issues that trumps numerical grade on the label.
It is also cost prohibitive to slab many tokens and medals, so they remain raw until they creep up past say $500 or so.
So to sort of answer your question- I'd definitely want to slab four figure exonumia if it was heading to auction instead of trading within a circle of collectors who all knew what they were looking at.
Obviously, if there remains a strong market for raw pieces why take the time, money, and risk to slab? The reward has to outweigh the effort
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
LOL. That's fine.
Let me rephrase:
$150 coin is a $200 coin.
Discuss!
OK.
(Ungraded) $150 coin is a $200 coin (graded).
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
LOL.
Ungraded $150 coin is a $10,000 coin if you can get it in the right holder.
Corollary: Ungraded $150 coin is a $100 coin if you get it in the wrong holder.
Corollary #2: Graded $200 coin is a $250 coin if you can get it CACed.
I buy slabbed coins for the most part, since I like the protection. I still buy raw if the coin attracts me. Sometimes I get them slabbed, sometimes I just leave them as I purchased them. Since I do not sell coins, the market aspect really does not bother me. Cheers, RickO