Was told by CAC that my pcgs ms 64 Washington quarter is really AU 58.
Moonstone
Posts: 15 ✭
I spoke today with John Albanese and he explained to me that my Pcgs 64 quarter has cabinet friction on the obverse high points, and by CAC standards it’s not uncirculated so no sticker. Does things mean by Pcgs standards it is ms 64 as it is a gorgeous coin otherwise with plenty of luster. Or is it a Pcgs grading error and if it were submitted raw several times it would come back mostly as a 58? Appreciate your insight into this issue.
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Photo?
Grading is always just an opinion,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Still at CAC unfortunately. Mr. Albenese just phoned me with results for a few coins
What coins?
I submitted a few coins for grading as a new submitter. I am now thinking of selling my quarter as I can’t have a coin in my collection that is not truly mint state as I have great respect for JA opinion
What year and mint mark?
How do you get a phone call or even a reject reason? I have sent a few coins in a 2nd time and asked for a reason for "not passing" only to receive no answer of any kind.
What quarter would that be?
1932 ms 64. As a new submitter JA was kind enough to go through my coins with me as an exception as I wrote him a note asking for an explanation if some coins didn’t receive a sticker
Any SLQ?
There is no such thing as an immutable PCGS standard. That said, they are more forgiving of so-called cabinet friction than CAC. There's no way to estimate what percentage of the time PCGS would call your coin 58 vs. 64 without seeing it (preferably in hand), and even then, it'd still be a guess.
No SLQ. Some Indian head, Liberty and Buffalo nickel, Mercury dime Washington quarter and a Morgan dollar. 7 coins with 3 green stickers 2 gold and two no grade. A Buffalo nickel 1927 ms 65 had slight white pvc problems.
It is a darned shame that Albanese considers any coin with subtle wear -- from cabinet friction, like here, impossibly MS.
That's just plain wrong. The coin never circulated. It is not AU.
As such, he won't sticker it. But the market will feel otherwise. PCGS, and collectors, will embrace it as MS all day long.
Lance.
Thanks for your opinion. Maybe I won’t get rid of it after all. Coin has a gem look full of luster on obverse no obvious dull spots. Will recheck as JA drew me a picture on coin to check when my coins come back
I love that John Albanese takes the time to school collectors on matters he feels important. I wish PCGS would make that effort. It's great for the hobby and for collectors.
I have a dozen or more MS bust half dollars in PCGS MS holders with touches of friction that won't CAC. They're gorgeous. Flashy luster. Lovely surfaces. Totally unspoiled. But CAC won't sticker them because of traces of cabinet friction.
At some point you have to decide whether CAC's opinion drives your collecting or whether you should collect what you like, especially when the best in the business -- PCGS, endorses them.
If you love it, keep it. I'll bet you won't suffer when you sell.
Lance.
It would be equally wrong to ignore all cabinet friction, environmental damage etc. AU vs UNC is a state of preservation not a comment on the history of the coin's journey. It is also possible for a coin that has been in circulation to receive a Mint State grade of the coin shows no evidence of it's brief journey in circulation.
Hey, I’d say 5 out of 7 passing is darn good, and with two gold stickers out of the five that passed is absolutely terrific! Congratulations! (And you succeeded in getting JA to spend some time with you sharing his thought processes).
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Thank You
A green CAC sticker to my understanding means the coin is exceptional for its grade. If it didn't sticker it could still be a 64 just not an exceptional 64.
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Congratulations on your submission results. Regardless of what you decide regarding your 1932 quarter you received information from an expert grader. How you use it is up to you. I had a very similar experience, JA said that the obverse of my seated dollar graded MS-64 by PCGS had light wear therefore he graded it AU-58. I saw the wear when I purchased the coin but it was covered with toning, the price was good, and the reverse toning was spectacular. I kept the coin for years, eventually I decided to sell it for a small profit. Most importantly I learned to trust my instincts and improved my grading skills.
__> @gumby1234 said:
The green sticker indicates that CAC believes the coin is of A or B, but not C quality for the grade. That’s not necessarily the same thing as “exceptional”.
From their site:
“For many years, coin dealers and advanced collectors have used the letters A, B, and C among themselves to further describe coins. C indicates low-end for the grade, B indicates solid for the grade, and A indicates high-end. CAC will only award stickers to coins in the A or B category. C coins, although accurately graded, will be returned without a CAC sticker.”
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@MFeld thanks for the clarification. CAC was not around when I was collecting. Recently back in the game.
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Close, but no cigar. The CAC sticker means, among other things, that the coin is SOLID for the grade, not necessarily exceptional for the grade. In your example of a 64, in theory if you divided all 64’s into three equal piles of quality, referring to them as A, B, and C, the CAC sticker means the coin is either an A or B, and not a C. Separately, it also means the surfaces have not been “messed” with.
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
@winesteven thanks Mark already cleared that up.
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Mark is a faster and better typer than me.😉
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Steve, if that’s true - and I seriously doubt it - I feel sorry for you.😄
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I'm a one finger typer so it doesn't get much worse than that
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Three green and two gold stickers out of seven is a good submission. Plus the 'training' call... Winner all around. Cheers, RickO
I would agree that in general 5 out of 7 that "passed" is a good result. The 1932 quarter is obviously a first year issue... it is a common coin in MS until one gets into the lofty grades. And I suspect that was the reasoning for the submission. Without seeing the coin in hand or an image of the coin, it really is impossible to further respond to your question. So what were the 7 coins? I ask mainly because the focus should be on the coins you are submitting and whether there are spreads between grades justify further review. CAC is a great service but not all coins need to be reviewed by them.
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I won't touch this topic with a 10 foot pole, even a pole with a gold sticker.
@Moonstone Are you going to send your coin back to PCGS so it can be reslabbed with the correct grade under their grade guarantee? Be sure to let them know that CAC said that the grade was wrong and should have been AU58. I'm sure they'll appreciate you giving them the opportunity to correct their mistake. And, yes, I'm joking here.
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"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
As I understand it, "uncirculated" is meant to describe the absence of wear on the high points. When I look to buy an "uncirculated" coin, I don't want wear that somebody defines as "subtle". I would expect a coin with very slight wear to be an AU58+, but I'm admittedly picky. Paying an MS64 price for a coin with wear is the collector's prerogative. Not endorsing a coin with wear as uncirculated is JA's prerogative. I wholeheartedly support, and appreciate, JA's view.
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There are two major points where I disagree with JA, one of them being his stance on cabinet friction, the other being the standards he stickers PL/DMPL Morgans at. IMHO cabinet friction should be acceptable up to 63, not automatically dropping it to 58. As for PL/DMPL, I like stronger mirrors/contrast than he does.
That said, we all have different twists on the art of grading. And that's perfectly fine. We do agree on the bulk of material I send in, about 80%.
CAC is tough, going 5/7 on your first sub is solid. Enjoy the successes, try not to focus too much on the failures.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
>
Exactly correct….it’s market grading vs technical grading.
Buying and Selling coins for 54 years, 700+ shows in last 20 years, and boy am I tired.
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grading is a paid opinion by a expert, you get what you pay for a opinion doesn't mean it's right or wrong just a paid opinion you wanted on a coin
wbbjts
I dont believe CAC grades PL AND DMPL morgans. I believe they only sticker based on the numeric grade.
That is incorrect. I asked CAC, in order to confirm, long ago, after I saw someone else post what you did. Likewise, they also take into account designations such as FH, FB., etc.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
If you’re going to OK grades of coins with cabinet friction up to MS63, why stop there?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Light wear is wear. "Cabinet friction" is a euphemism for light wear (per Webster "the substitution of an agreeable or inoffensive expression for one that may offend or suggest something unpleasant"). Nobody knows the specific cause of wear on a coin. Calling it cabinet friction implies that it was caused by handling/storage in a coin collection, which may or may not be true. The coin may well have been circulated, perhaps pulled out of circulation by a collector early in its existence. Who knows? What is undeniably true is that the coin has wear. Insisting that "subtle" wear shouldn't rule out an uncirculated grade is a very slippery slope (much like "market grading"). Who defines "subtle"?
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Now listen boy, I'm tryin' to teach you sumthin' . . . . that ain't no optical illusion, it only looks like an optical illusion.
My mind reader refuses to charge me....
As your experience grows, you may learn that the sun does not revolve around CAC. While I like to have the extra endorsement, I own several coins that were rejected. Bought them knowing this. Change my enjoyment of the coin or want to resell due to the rejection? No way.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
What Mark said. Designations must be met to receive a bean. They ignore plus and star, though.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
Personal preference. I'd actually tolerate the sliiiiightest friction on 64's, but they otherwise better be gem. 65's shouldn't have any. Again, just my humble opinion based mostly on the way I've seen cabinet friction affect eye appeal/market value.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
It is great that JA explained his process and opinion. It will help you as you pursue your collection. Although many may not agree with his opinion of "subtle wear", I will bet when it comes time to sell, dealers will point to that to discount their offer price.
Pretty awesome that JA spoke to you himself about your coins. And 5 out of 7 is a great pass percentage.
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Sounds like Moonstone(s) was an apt moniker...
Doesn't that depend on how much cabinet friction is present?
Jeez, hammer time again! Seemed like the thread had potential, but the lack of images and odd sentence structure made me wonder.
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