What’s questionable (or unquestionable) about this color?

Keshequa · August 23, 2021 1:33PM

Ok, very first post on here, so be gentle. Usually after reviewing a surprising grade I can rationalize the conclusion, for better or worse. But, this one (unc 91) I would like some input from the toning experts on here, because to me this toning progression is as it should be. I’ve read the D. Hall quote/misquote/out of context quote about Peace dollar colors. But, other than that, is there something screaming ‘artificial’ about this. FWIW, I’ve owned this coin for about 25 years, it’s looked this way from day 1, been stored in a 2x2, and the untoned part has the classic ‘skin’ of originality, and the reeding darkly toned. Was counting on the toning and skin being worth a point. Thanks.

airplanenut · August 23, 2021 1:41PM

Right off the bat, that blue is a shade rarely if ever seen on an NT coin. This might not be the most helpful answer in the sense that this coin isn't outlandishly AT (bold splotchy colors, super neon pop atop cleaned surfaces, etc.) and more than anything, it just looks off. That it's on a Peace dollar doesn't help since their toning tends to get questioned more in general because they simply don't tone as readily as, say, a Morgan dollar, but even on a Morgan those colors--and especially that blue--would look out of place. That said, as far as AT coins go, the coin could look a lot worse.

pmh1nic · August 23, 2021 1:55PM

I'm not an expert by any means but it looks natural to me. I'll be watching to see what the real experts think.

gumby1234 · August 23, 2021 1:59PM

@pmh1nic The experts (PCGS) think its questionable toning

pmh1nic · August 23, 2021 2:02PM

@gumby1234 said:
@pmh1nic The experts (PCGS) think its questionable toning

Do they actually use the term "questionable" or is that just their kind way of saying artificial?

gumby1234 · August 23, 2021 2:03PM

@pmh1nic no they use the term questionable toning

HalfDimeDude · August 23, 2021 2:04PM

I agree with airplanenut he hit it right on the head.... I know a few dates on Peace dollars that are known to tone but they are very few. The 1925 is one.
That type of tone is definitely from an album or other paper as dark as it is around the rim. However again Peace dollars are a crap shoot when toned.

Sonorandesertrat · August 23, 2021 2:08PM

If you are looking for a 1 point bump in grade for toning, it needs to be exceptional (mostly antique silver patination won't help much).

Keshequa · August 23, 2021 2:12PM

Thoughts on how? > @gumby1234 said:

@pmh1nic no they use the term questionable toning

‘Questionable Color’ to be precise.

gumby1234 · August 23, 2021 2:15PM

@Keshequa Yes thats how they phrase it.

pmh1nic · August 23, 2021 2:19PM

Is there something about the abrupt contrast that makes it questionable? Is there something about the composition of Peace Dollars that in general inhibits toning?

Here are some pictures of coins with similar toning (no in a PCGS slab).

pmh1nic · August 23, 2021 2:23PM

@gumby1234 said:
@Keshequa Yes thats how they phrase it.

So where NGC just would flat out label it "Artifical Toning" PCGS will use the term "Questionable Toning".

gumby1234 · August 23, 2021 2:25PM

@pmh1nic I was corrected it is questionable color the term they use.

gumby1234 · August 23, 2021 2:32PM

@Keshequa toning is a tough area to figure out. There are a few bad apples out there that have many methods of toning coins artificially. For toning to bump a coin by a + grade or even a full point it has to really nice looking like the Barber coin posted above and it has to be natural. Sometimes the colors aren't right or the progression isn't right. Even if your Peace dollar was naturally toned that toning would not bump the grade.

ColonelKlinck · August 23, 2021 2:33PM

Re-submit

koynekwest · August 23, 2021 2:37PM

@gumby1234 said:
@Keshequa toning is a tough area to figure out. There are a few bad apples out there that have many methods of toning coins artificially. For toning to bump a coin by a + grade or even a full point it has to really nice looking like the Barber coin posted above and it has to be natural. Sometimes the colors aren't right or the progression isn't right. Even if your Peace dollar was naturally toned that toning would not bump the grade.

There are several BIG sellers on ebay who deal in nothing but AT coins. Some of their stuff is very attractive and could (and do) fool many buyers.

pmh1nic · August 23, 2021 2:37PM

@gumby1234 said:
@pmh1nic I was corrected it is questionable color the term they use.

Thanks gumby1234.

I found this on the PCGS website which seems to indicate the color can be correct but in their opinion the development of the color was helped (accelerated) in some way. In some cases a definitive judge could be made (coin minted in 2010 comes in for grading in 2011 with this toning).

"91 – Questionable Color
Most experienced numismatists appreciate the beauty of a spectacularly toned coin. Because toning is a natural chemical reaction, there are ways of accelerating the process as well as "enhancing" the results. These artificial means of creating toning are largely frowned upon, and if PCGS encounters a coin which we believe has been helped along in the natural toning process, we will not assign a numerical grade. A questionable color call can also occur if one tries to recolor a copper coin back to its original "red" color. Toning is also added in an effort to mask a past cleaning. Whatever the reason, collectors like their coins naturally toned over many years."

koynekwest · August 23, 2021 2:38PM

BTW-even if that color on the Peace dollar is NT I don't care for it.

Keshequa · August 23, 2021 2:39PM

@ColonelKlinck said:
Re-submit

Not worth it. I’ll let the coin and the holder and the prospective buyer make an informed judgement. Chemically, the color progression is correct, including the touch around the portrait. If it’s AT, that’s quite a feat. Hoping to understand how that was accomplished. Torch?

fluffy155 · August 23, 2021 2:59PM

My opinion is that the thin crescents of color that range fully from gold to blue is an indication of album storage in a hot, humid space. That's a coin doctor method and should be considered artificial. Here's a coin with the same pattern that I think is AT (though PCGS unfortunately straight graded it). It showed up in a small sale with a number of other half dollars that looked exactly the same, I think it's clear that they were all dipped then stuck in an album to sweat for a few months. (Full disclosure, it's my coin that I purchased as a naive and starry-eyed collector just getting back into the hobby. I'm very happy that this is the only one I bought.)

ColonelJessup · August 23, 2021 3:01PM

@airplanenut said:
Right off the bat, that blue is a shade rarely if ever seen on an NT coin. This might not be the most helpful answer in the sense that this coin isn't outlandishly AT (bold splotchy colors, super neon pop atop cleaned surfaces, etc.) and more than anything, it just looks off. That it's on a Peace dollar doesn't help since their toning tends to get questioned more in general because they simply don't tone as readily as, say, a Morgan dollar, but even on a Morgan those colors--and especially that blue--would look out of place. That said, as far as AT coins go, the coin could look a lot worse.

I'm going to contradict Jeremy to some degree on this, because he's quite on the mark to a good degree. But.......

1) I never trust the depth of blues and reds in TruViews. They too often are a critical shade off.
2) That particular color scheme is very commonly produced by environmental contamination produced within various pre-2000 storage media.
3) I myself used to do that particular toning scheme quite well and got confronted and busted for it and continued to do it quite well etc etc.
4) This is an unusual pattern on a Peace dollar, On the 82-P in 66, it's not a red flag. Though I concede intensity and spectrum fade isn't as pronounced.
5) Another coin doctor, when we were looking pre-auction at an 1838 25c in an NGC MS66 holder 15 years ago, very proudly and confidently informed me that the toning was my work. The next day I brought in the Jimmy Hayes 1985 color plate and he grumbled.
6) There are several PCGS CAC coins in the Heritage Archives that..... never mind.....

Musically, this works out to Bob Seger moaning "Wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then..."

So I know what I'm looking at, I see exactly the same things you do. I evaluated them the same way. And so what!
I think you'll ruin the coin if you dip it, and I'm convinced you won't get a 65 whether you dip it or not even if they accept the color.

So crack it, put some nose grease (squalene) on your finger and dab it onto the toned areas stroking out towards the rims. You've already squandered a fee; the second one will hardly be worth it.

Short form.... All sense and non-sense aside, you've already lost your fight with City Hall.

Ain't that a helluva "Welcome to the Forum"

Liquidated · August 23, 2021 3:24PM

Deleted

ColonelJessup · August 23, 2021 3:31PM

@fluffy155 said:
My opinion is that the thin crescents of color that range fully from gold to blue is an indication of album storage in a hot, humid space. That's a coin doctor method and should be considered artificial. Here's a coin with the same pattern that I think is AT (though PCGS unfortunately straight graded it). It showed up in a small sale with a number of other half dollars that looked exactly the same, I think it's clear that they were all dipped then stuck in an album to sweat for a few months. (Full disclosure, it's my coin that I purchased as a naive and starry-eyed collector just getting back into the hobby. I'm very happy that this is the only one I bought.)

1) See my post above in the sense that it agrees with yours.
2) See @Perfection or @Eldorado9 or maybe the Vermeule sale color plates or some Seated and Barber type and a 1933-S WLH PCGS MS67 CAC that just sold, I'm told by a former owner, for over $60K.

It's doesn't require an old album and it (often) needn't take but an hour. Take my definitive word: there is no definitive word. But there are those who control and enforce the market "definition".

That's not necessarily great work on your 55-O Half; that's a great planchet!

Keshequa · August 23, 2021 3:34PM

@ColonelJessup said:

I'm going to contradict Jeremy to some degree on this, because he's quite on the mark to a good degree. But.......

1) I never trust the depth of blues and reds in TruViews. They too often are a critical shade off.
2) That particular color scheme is very commonly produced by environmental contamination produced within various pre-2000 storage media.

I think you'll ruin the coin if you dip it, and I'm convinced you won't get a 65 whether you dip it or not even if they accept the color.

So crack it, put some nose grease (squalene) on your finger and dab it onto the toned areas stroking out towards the rims. You've already squandered a fee; the second one will hardly be worth it.

>

Ain't that a helluva "Welcome to the Forum"

Very helpful answer…at least I have a clue as to how it was done. So, perhaps we need a category for ‘naturally accelerated toning’ since it isn’t ‘added’ color, but ‘hastened’ color.
The coin won’t be dipped, the other skin on the coin is too nice to remove, and AT or not, for someone properly informed, it will fit some bill.
The true view picture, in this case, is pretty accurate.
The education was a proper welcome. Thanks.

amwldcoin · August 23, 2021 3:40PM

Since when did album toning become artificial? I've also seen old ANACS slabs tone a coin this way!

@HalfDimeDude said:
I agree with airplanenut he hit it right on the head.... I know a few dates on Peace dollars that are known to tone but they are very few. The 1925 is one.
That type of tone is definitely from an album or other paper as dark as it is around the rim. However again Peace dollars are a crap shoot when toned.

ThreeCentSilverFL · August 23, 2021 3:48PM

_"Take my definitive word: there is no definitive word." _
@ColonelJessup

Wow. So true, and transcends such a wide diversity of subject matter. (Keeper).

HalfDimeDude · August 23, 2021 3:49PM

@amwldcoin said:
Since when did album toning become artificial? I've also seen old ANACS slabs tone a coin this way!

@HalfDimeDude said:
I agree with airplanenut he hit it right on the head.... I know a few dates on Peace dollars that are known to tone but they are very few. The 1925 is one.
That type of tone is definitely from an album or other paper as dark as it is around the rim. However again Peace dollars are a crap shoot when toned.

Agreed ask the TPG's why? PCI slabs too tone like this as well other colors ,but a good many of those get giged also.... Ive tried enough times to cross or crack out ...even old Anacs soap bar cracked to a new Anacs and because the slab was damaged actully cracked, they said questionable color.
Just another reason why I self slab if I want the specimen slabed...I only need to please myself and money saved I can buy more coins.
I have asked Anacs why when given the correct variety on a 1938 D buffalo why they would put it on the slab? Esspecially when the 38 D one would most probably find a 38 D/D 38 D/D/D 38 D/S 38 DD/S way before finding just a normal 38 D ! No variety or omm ,rpm .
Beats me ...

Connecticoin · August 23, 2021 5:19PM

deleted, I was not making sense.

gradeacoinsebay · August 23, 2021 5:27PM

IMO it's not actually artificial but the blue is a common AT color and all major graders are very strict with the toning on Peace Dollars in particular. A different series of silver coin and this tone would have a lot better shot at passing. I would not advise resubmitting it. It is a pretty coin though and even in the QC Holder should still have okay value.

Liquidated · August 23, 2021 6:12PM

Deleted

ricko · August 24, 2021 7:08AM

As indicated by an expert (@ColonelJessup), AT is often virtually undetectable, when done right.... It comes down to 'educated opinions', which, are still opinions.... and often incorrect in both directions. Tarnish is tarnish... the great debate is whether is has developed 'unassisted' or if it has been accelerated by unnatural methods. It will remain a debate, since, while some examples are obvious, when done well, it will not be detected - or maybe by a lucky guess. Cheers, RickO

Meltdown · August 24, 2021 7:38AM

PCGS does not like blue on their Peace dollars... I tried this one once and it came back as questionable.
It sure was pretty though.

mr1931S · August 24, 2021 3:23PM

Looks natural to me.

joeykoins · August 24, 2021 4:25PM

Beware

Of this color as well!
Strange Purple

What’s questionable (or unquestionable) about this color?

Answers

Beware

Gassed

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