PCGS slab on ebay - what premium does it command?
moursund
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Not being super confident as a coin buyer, I consider buying PCGS slabbed coins on ebay to be a 'safer' purchase.
The coin has to look good, and hopefully not greatly overpriced, but I certain lean toward TPG coins, especially PCGS.
Because the PCGS slab seems a bit like an insurance policy for not getting a damaged or misrepresented coin, it makes sense that the slab itself adds a premium to the price. But how much is the premium? If you are an experienced buyer, do you avoid the slabs because they carry a premium, or still prefer them because of resale value and to protect against counterfeits?
am
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Watch out for fake slabs too, they are out there, I have 1.
Does the seller's reputation protect you from that?
Some experienced buyers who are very concerned about resale will show strong preference for slabs. Other experienced buyers just want nice coins and are completely willing to buy raw coins. They trust in their own ability to grade, spot surface alterations and counterfeits. Read the comments on the current ANA convention. There are still dealers who regularly deal in raw coins and do very well with them. They know their market and their buyers know their coins.
Inexperienced buyers should stick to major brand slabs.
It depends on the value of the coin. Something in the $500 range the additional slab cost in an E-Bay purchase should be minimal.
Something in the $50 range I'd expect to pay a portion of the $22 Economy grading fee.
Something in the $15 range was slabbed by someone with a nitch collecting taste. That's on them. The coin should still cost just $15.
Now a coin in the thousands on E-Bay becomes a credibility question first. Such a seller has to have many many completed transactions that were problem free (denoted by near 100% positive feedback). Further a return policy is REQUIRED by any sensible buyer. The grading cost for such a coin currently is $38 if I recall correctly. An added $40 on such a coin shouldn't be a deal breaker.
In all cases, the price paid should be between Grey Sheet bid and "sold" E-Bay listings for that exact coin and grade. Exceptions can be made for exceptionally eye appealing coins.
These are simply my opinions. In the end it boils down to need/want.
I represent that remark!
Thanks,
am
Depends but for any coin with real numismatic value there is a premium. As you get up towards the four and five digit dollar amounts, the premiums get steeper. Also, for certain series, such as seated coinage, altered and counterfeit pieces are plentiful. Caveat emptor on ebay when it comes to raw coins. PCGS coins sell for a premium because the security is worth a premium to many folks.
PS: there are plenty of dealers with 10k+ feedback who regularly sell cleaned coins without disclosing it.
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Amen!!! If you are interested in buying a raw coin on ebay, I know you can pay NGC like 5 or 10 bucks to look at a raw coin and they will tell you if it is authentic or not. If you win the coin, they will give you a discount on the slab. Just another way to protect yourself if you are not an expert and really want a raw coin that is higher in value.
Here is the link:
https://www.ngccoin.com/expert-review-ebay/
Positive BST as a seller: Namvet69, Lordmarcovan, Bigjpst, Soldi, mustanggt, CoinHoader, moursund, SufinxHi, al410, JWP
Just want to mention eBay feedback is BS. You can get negs removed no problem.
Returns, returns, returns, returns, returns. Make sure the seller offers them or you can get one via something in their listing description that is subjective rather than objective.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
My PM's are always open to opinions on eBay lots. The only time you'll hear me recuse myself is if it is something I am watching myself.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
Personally, I really like the new NFC technology in PCGS holders.
Positive BST as a seller: Namvet69, Lordmarcovan, Bigjpst, Soldi, mustanggt, CoinHoader, moursund, SufinxHi, al410, JWP
Totally understand! That would be a conflict of interest
Positive BST as a seller: Namvet69, Lordmarcovan, Bigjpst, Soldi, mustanggt, CoinHoader, moursund, SufinxHi, al410, JWP
Not all graded coins are alike. I am not afraid to pay up for a nice coin in a holder - and I don't mean for toning. I generally don't buy from an online auction or store unless the pictures are outstanding, or there is a return policy (not that I've had to use it).
I have bought some great coins on ebay where the seller had a 'No Return' policy on a true auction. I ended up reselling a coin once for 3x what I paid for it because his policy turned away bidders. He had good pictures and so it wasn't a gamble.
@moursund said:
But how much is the premium? ** Depends on the grade and rarity of the coin.**
If you are an experienced buyer, do you avoid the slabs because they carry a premium, or still prefer them because of resale value and to protect against counterfeits? **The primary purpose of an NGC and/or PCGS slab is to provide a housing and an independent 3rd party determination of what the coin is in terms of grade and authenticity. Indirectly, it is the population of coins in these "grades" that help us understand the actual rarity and thus determines value. Now that I said that, I will also say that any coin you collect, say worth over say $200, should be in PCGS or NGC a slab for you and your heir's sake. **
But even then, a slab isn't a guarantee of a nice coin. Yes, certain problems are unlikely or guaranteed not to be present, but many coins still end up either being considered market acceptable and/or net graded, and those can be ones that should sell for a discount at best. Simply putting blind faith in a slab is only an insurance policy that you aren't wildly off base. Someone could build a really ugly set of coins with the exact same labels as someone else who puts together a set of really great coins.
Makes sense. I just pulled the trigger, and paid likely above FMV for this:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/114855269538
But looking PCGS slabbed coins available, I liked the look of this one more than most others in anywhere near the price range... this for a 'Type' coin.
am
Generally, but not unconditionally if enough time lapses until you recognize it.
Watch out for the PCGS slabs in the high 3's or 4's starting digits. It's easy for a seller to make a coin look like a nice grey original coin with the lighting when in reality it's a lightly polished or dipped out POS. I'm talking mid-grade circs where nice original surfaces are beginning to command quite a premium over the previously mentioned. This has become widespread since PCGS accepted CAC and I have a conspiracy theory in my mind.
for high price coin, in a slab holder will get a lot more than raw
What starting digits? What/why high 3's or 4's? The numbers on the slab? The price? Huh?
The serial number...the last 8 digits.
Ok, why would high 3's or 4's starting digit make it easier for a seller to make a lightly cleaned coin look original, than some other starting digit? And have I run afoul of this for this coin I just bought today?
You should take a few minutes to check out all of the different PCGS slabs from over the years.
PCGS Museum of Coin Holders
https://pcgs.com/holders
Awhile back I sold a PCGS slabbed coin on eBay and the buyer thought it was fake.
Why you ask? Because my slabbed coin's holder didn't have a data matrix barcode (like below).
The buyer admitted that he was new to coin collecting and had never seen any other slab.
I shared the above link and was able to educate the buyer.
Sugar magnolia blossoms blooming, heads all empty and I don't care ...
If the coin looks like the photo, then it's exactly what I was describing. The coin has nice details, but to be totally honest (not doing so would just be a disservice to you) that color doesn't look good at all. It's light which means it's all but guaranteed to have been lightly cleaned or at least wiped, and the random dark splotches don't do anything for the eye appeal. I don't know what's currently available (or where you're looking), but one thing I've learned over time is to be patient. Find the right coin when it comes, rather than buy what appears to be the best of what's currently available. There are many coins in my collection where I could have bought an example any day over the months or years I looked for the right one because the coin/grade is common, but a really nice one isn't. Maybe you'll get lucky and the coin will look nothing like that photo shows, but that is not how an original circulated piece of silver from 190 years ago should look.
@airplanenut and I go back quite a ways, so I’m not at all surprised (and at the same time, I’m glad) that we have similar thoughts about the coin. Based on the images posted, it looks unoriginal, cleaned, hairlined and unappealing. I don’t know what you compared it to, but if you were looking for a type coin, you could have done far better.
A key word mentioned by @airplanenut was “patient”. I can’t stress it enough. Even though some of my clients and coin collector friends were frustrated when I first preached it to them, many of them have since thanked me for it.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
The simple answer to your question in the op is whatever premium a buyer is willing to pay.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
You guys are giving good advice... and I wasn't patient enough.
I'm giving you agrees and likes. You may save me some pain down the road.
This coin is returnable
When I receive it, I'll give a hard think about keeping it. I see what you mean about hairlines, I suppose... but why would PCGS grade it VF30, not a 'details' grade, if it is cleaned..?
Thanks!
Coins are cleaned to varying degrees. If a grading company considers it to be light enough/acceptable, they will award a straight grade. At a certain point, however, cleaning is heavy enough, such that a coin will receive a details grade, instead.
The decision whether to award a straight grade vs. a details grade is a subjective, judgment call. And there is often disagreement among knowledgeable people as to what call to make on a cleaned coin.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
IMO, if this coin straight graded in another company's plastic, plenty of people here would be using it as an example of how much better PCGS's grading is.
good point. Color me better informed
Sadly, I find I prefer the look of the lightly cleaned and lighter coins to the darker and gunky original look... But I also prefer wine coolers to fine wine, and if I want to collect coins, I should 'improve my pallet'.
It illustrates what I said earlier, though. This coin might have enough meat to be at least a VF35 if it were original. The VF30 grade (in my opinion) is PCGS saying it's not cleaned enough for a details holder, but it's not a nice enough coin to command a VF35 price tag. So they net grade the coin down to 30. While this strategy may (I stress MAY) make sense as far as market value goes, it can provide lessons in particular to newer collectors who see a coin with better than average details for the grade, which can make such a coin look like a steal--great details and undergraded--but there's more to the grade than just the details.
One great resource is the Heritage archive. Search for any coin (whether a date or a whole series) in any grades and see everything they've sold for the last decade or two. This is a good way to get an idea of a coin's value in general, but also to see what affects price. Many coins in the same grade look different, and you'll see them sell for different amounts. When all the coins with light color sell for less, it can give some clues about what original surfaces do to prices. That said, keep in mind that the market also changes over time, so a price change between coins that sold a decade apart may be meaningless. Ideally you can find a few examples of similar coins that sold within, say, a year of each other. Or, expand your resources and look at the PCGS price guide to find a few dates that sell for the same price in your grade(s) of interest (even if the absolute dollar value is off, relative pricing is generally good for guidance) and then look at all those dates with Heritage to get a larger sample size.
Agree with mfelds points. I went on eBay to find an example of an 1831 in your grade range that I liked. Not easy to find one, actually! This was the one I liked the best (not my coin, nor do I know the seller):
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1831-Capped-Bust-Half-Dollar-PCGS-VF35-/393502566887
Note the natural color variation and lighter high points, indicative of multi stage wear. It's not perfect and I'm sure some here will nitpick it, but it's a much more wholesome example. That being said, with patience one could find a better example still, and for around the same price.
Aercus Numismatics - Certified coins for sale
Collect for yourself, don't let other people decide for you what you buy- unless, of course, you're okay with that. There is nothing at all wrong with preferring such coins, just understand how they fit into The Big Picture of numismatics so that you're not blindsided if you ever decide to sell.
I like the look of that one better, too. In addition to that, if I understood moursund‘s post correctly, he was looking for a type coin. If so, he had/has numerous other dates and examples from which to choose.
And I’d like to commend moursund for being willing to listen to suggestions and critiques of his purchase, without being defensive or close-minded.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I don't think it's nitpicking to say that coin looks way too light, as well. It's nicer than the OP's coin, but that's not saying much. Doing a very quick search, here are two I think have much better color:
This one is still a little light, but at least at first glance (and with the limitations of photography) it looks like a pretty decent example: https://www.ebay.com/itm/174880834073
This is a wholesome, original coin: https://www.ebay.com/itm/133803034408
This is a good point, but the education part is key. The issue is that if you go in blind and think you're doing well, you can end up overspending for coins many won't appreciate. You won't get me to say I like a coin just because you do, but I'll grant "to each their own" if I disagree, as long as it's reality on reality's terms. If you try to convince me that you have an appealing example and it's cleaned, I'll disagree. All that said, if the OP is new enough to collecting, what I'd really like to see is a set of images of many coins split between like and dislike. It's easy to use general words to describe coins, but when look matters so much, words might not be enough. It could be that we're talking past each other; there could be nice original pieces the OP doesn't know to look for, and some dark coins (original or not) really are just unattractive. The ideal (from my perspective) would be to find where the OP's likes overlap what will generally be considered a nice, attractive collection. People beyond the OP will appreciate looking at the coins, and it will be a great help when it comes time to sell.
That is exactly my point.
That appears to be a picture exposure issue. The third image shows the coin is dark enough to be original. This is somewhat of a judgement call but I would wager the coin is perfectly original.
Regardless, I didn't realize the OP was looking for type. The 1814 you linked is a great example and I definitely prefer it as well. 👍
Aercus Numismatics - Certified coins for sale
Which "third image" are you talking about?
edited to add... Ok- I think I understand. But then, I wouldn't trust that photo to be accurate- PCGS slabs aren't blue.
I'm not so sure. The slab photo is exposed for the label and the coin is darkened because the label is brighter (the coin is underexposed) and the coin is also in a shadow. Put another way, it's not the coin I'd use for an example because with those photos, I wouldn't buy it. Either the coin looks like that and I don't want it, or the coin doesn't look like that, and I'm not buying a coin whose appearance I don't know.
This thread is a perfect example of why I am addicted to this forum. The feedback is firm, unyielding and constructive without any demeaning or degrading comments.
What a blessing it is to have these resources and their expertise at our fingertips,
Tim
I was thinking of looking for a similar choice VF to add to the convo...but this is pretty much it.
Important to note, early date CBH's are at least 2x the price of 1830's dates.
They are more interesting IMO.
1813 and 1814 dates are awesome, full of die clashes and such. This one is especially interesting for being struck off center and also the kind of late die state where the portrait still looks well struck but the edges of the die were wearing away..
I grade it $350 though...🤑
I remember my first months here on the forum, posting bust halves I'd scored on eBay, and getting similarly schooled by Coinguy1 😅
And thankfully so!
Many of helpful PM's and before long I was able to start recognizing for myself a bit of the difference between junk and quality that we all have to wade through..
VF bust halves happen to be my happy place.
LOL! Prime example. If those pictures are accurate it would not have graded problem free 5 years ago!
Oh, I didn’t care about date or listed price… I just wanted an example of what a coin in that grade vicinity can/should look like. When I’m looking for type coins myself, I routinely find amazing examples of key dates, and I hate that.
Amazing key dates as type then.. there are worse ways to go I guess 🤔
Agree 100% regarding the constructive nature of this discussion and this forum in general. I also agree with Amwld that this coin likely would not straight grade several years ago. PCGS has lowered its standards for straight grading a tad, IMO, hence the emergence of CAC as a major influence in the coin market.
The upside is I now hold out hope that coins that I thought would be body-bagged for cleaning or wiping might make it into PCGS holders these days. I have more than a few of those sorts of 'meh' coins.
This is a great thread - primarily for newer collectors. That being said, there is information in some of these posts, by @airplanenut and @MFeld, that can be helpful and informative for many of us. This thread represents one of the great benefits of this forum. Cheers, RickO
hmm... maybe type set of key data coins in AG3, preferably slabbed by second-tier TPGs.
I already have AG3 16 d merc, ICG slab. Not so much eye-candy as eye-can-afford.