Suspect 1875 P Type 1/1 Trade Dollar

mbogoman · June 14, 2021 5:32AM

What do you think? It has none of the obverse pick-up points of a genuine Type 1/1, the obverse appears to be worn to about a VF level while the reverse is a sharp AU, the reverse has no rim (obscured?) and there appears to a a chop on Liberty's knee but no matching "bump" on the reverse.
https://ebay.com/itm/133788430491?hash=item1f2669709b:g:8GUAAOSwACpgxmq3

Pics for posterity:

LanceNewmanOCC · June 14, 2021 5:49AM

i'm probably not the one to get you where you need to go here but imo:

the obv has type 1 pup(s)
the obv is not worn to vf level. the head is a striking/grease or other issue. common on coins. the 4 stars adjacent, 2 west, 2 east, exhibit the same issue.
that chop is a little odd and maybe a small chance it is just pmd
the rev rim could just be cropped out of the image. it is unlikely the coin just ends right at the dentils
agree, i see no corresponding chop damage, at all.

maybe these images aren't of the same coin. the seller is highly suspect, or at least the listings. ESPECIALLY the trade dollars. looks like snagged images to me but i could be wrong.

mbogoman · June 14, 2021 6:09AM

@LanceNewmanOCC said:
i'm probably not the one to get you where you need to go here but imo:

the obv has type 1 pup(s)

the obv is not worn to vf level. the head is a striking/grease or other issue. common on coins. the 4 stars adjacent, 2 west, 2 east, exhibit the same issue.

that chop is a little odd and maybe a small chance it is just pmd

the rev rim could just be cropped out of the image. it is unlikely the coin just ends right at the dentils

agree, i see no corresponding chop damage, at all.

maybe these images aren't of the same coin. the seller is highly suspect, or at least the listings. ESPECIALLY the trade dollars. looks like snagged images to me but i could be wrong.

The Type 1 pups I was referring to are not the "usual" diagnostics for a Type 1 Trade $1. The 1875 P Type 1/1 is a very scarce coin. I was referring to the particular die characteristics of the 1875 Type 1, which are a die chip in the drapery to the right of Liberty's knee; a die crack across the upper left quarter above the stars and through the olive branch; a curved die scratch on the left ribbon end, and a couple others.

LanceNewmanOCC · June 14, 2021 7:05AM

@mbogoman said:

ok tx. i figured you were referring to the rarity but i got a bit side-tracked. ><

so is your inquiry that this may be a counterfeit? i'm not as intimately acquainted with this ol gal as you are so is that super long index finger normal? left hand.

i faintly recall the chip you are referring to. you say there is one in the drapery. i'm having something ring a bell about a big die chip in the wheat sheafs. or is that another year/mm.

either way i'll move along as w/o the image i have for the type 1 rarity, i'm pretty much of no use for assistance.

tradedollarnut · June 14, 2021 7:10AM

I can’t get behind that as a chopmark

mbogoman · June 14, 2021 7:33AM

Actually, the obverse looks like a genuine coin (or a very good fake), but the reverse throws me off. I still think the wear pattern is much less than the obverse. The fields look messed with - definitely cleaned, if not harshly, but I see no indications of mm removal. It would be better if the reverse pic would enlarge, but it doesn't. As a previous poster mentioned, maybe the seller put up the wrong reverse. I don't know. All I know is that the obverse does not look right for a 75 1/1...

Crypto · June 14, 2021 8:05AM

@mbogoman said:
Actually, the obverse looks like a genuine coin (or a very good fake), but the reverse throws me off. I still think the wear pattern is much less than the obverse. The fields look messed with - definitely cleaned, if not harshly, but I see no indications of mm removal. It would be better if the reverse pic would enlarge, but it doesn't. As a previous poster mentioned, maybe the seller put up the wrong reverse. I don't know. All I know is that the obverse does not look right for a 75 1/1...

I agree with you, the serifs on America on the Rev do not click with a 75P and that is not a 75P obv, It appears to be a 75s

jesbroken · June 14, 2021 8:34AM

@mbogoman said:
Actually, the obverse looks like a genuine coin (or a very good fake), but the reverse throws me off. I still think the wear pattern is much less than the obverse. The fields look messed with - definitely cleaned, if not harshly, but I see no indications of mm removal. It would be better if the reverse pic would enlarge, but it doesn't. As a previous poster mentioned, maybe the seller put up the wrong reverse. I don't know. All I know is that the obverse does not look right for a 75 1/1...

Here are some enlargements of the reverse, if it would help. I'm not a T$ specialist in any way but it truly looks real to me.
Sorry but could not set it for a complete coin, but required two.
Jim

mbogoman · June 14, 2021 9:19AM

I have requested more, sharper pics from the seller. We'll see.

Interestingly, two of the three bidders on this coin have other bids predominately in the Trade Dollar category...

DDR · June 14, 2021 10:57AM

I've been in touch with the seller. He told me that he believes they are not/not chop marks, but damage.

I too have requested additional, larger pics from the seller.

ChopmarkedTrades · June 14, 2021 3:55PM

Regardless of the auhenticity of the host, I don't think that this coin has an authentic chop.

keoj · June 14, 2021 5:45PM

As folks have noted...not sure it's a 75 I/I. Unless you guys see it, I cannot make out a the die chip (attribute of a real 75 I/I) seen in cotton bale. Image attached. Also missing some die cracks in the stars but the image is tough to see.

keoj

stealer · June 14, 2021 6:43PM

Just look at this seller's other listings...clearly they're listing coins they don't actually own. That should be all you need to see!

tradedollarnut · June 14, 2021 8:03PM

I already pm’d him about a fake 78-cc that he took down

mbogoman · June 15, 2021 5:17AM

@tradedollarnut said:
I already pm’d him about a fake 78-cc that he took down

Was that the one with the Type 1 reverse? I reported it a few days ago, but didn't notice it was the same seller...

kaz · June 15, 2021 7:41AM

@mbogoman said:

@tradedollarnut said:
I already pm’d him about a fake 78-cc that he took down

Was that the one with the Type 1 reverse? I reported it a few days ago, but didn't notice it was the same seller...

Yeah I pm'd him about that one too, and folks on CoinTalk reported it as well.

TradesWithChops · June 16, 2021 12:54PM

I, too, saw no type 1 obverse pups. didnt look further into it.

AUandAG · June 16, 2021 1:48PM

I say a good, or at least fairly good, fake. I don't like the wheat sheaves weakness or the shape of the R and Y in Liberty. Plus what's already been said.
bob

dcarr · June 16, 2021 2:13PM

I don't think the obverse and reverse pictures are of the same coin. Fishy.

mbogoman · June 16, 2021 2:41PM

@dcarr said:
I don't think the obverse and reverse pictures are of the same coin. Fishy.

I have to agree with this statement. I always felt that this was the case, given the different sizes and resolutions of the pictures. Makes no sense.

TradesWithChops · June 21, 2021 1:36PM

@mbogoman said:

@dcarr said:
I don't think the obverse and reverse pictures are of the same coin. Fishy.

I have to agree with this statement. I always felt that this was the case, given the different sizes and resolutions of the pictures. Makes no sense.

also significantly different toning patterns on the two sides. it could be the same coin. either a fake*, or a 75-s.

I've seen convincing trades where the two sides appear real, but together don't make a valid type.

Suspect 1875 P Type 1/1 Trade Dollar

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