Is there value in getting XF/AU to Unc US gold coins graded?
gscoins
Posts: 313 ✭✭✭
I have been asked by some friends to evaluate, and give guidance on the disposal of, a small collection of US coins. The collection includes three US gold coins: 1909D $5 (XF/AU), 1897 $10 (also XF/AU) and a 1922 $20 ( low end unc, though it has a couple of spots on the obverse). While I am no expert of US gold, they seem to be genuine to me (heft and appearance). From what I can tell, all are pretty much common dates. I could use the group's guidance: is the value added of grading (probably $50+ each all in using PCGS) enough to go to the expense? Or should I recommend they simply go to a coin dealer to get offers ungraded?
I would appreciate any thought folks might have.
Best Answer
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gscoins
Posts: 313 ✭✭✭
Thanks to everybody for your comments and advice. I will run them by my friends and see what they want to do.
I am sorry that this thread seems to have generated some hard feelings. Perhaps the best thing to do is to end it now.
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Answers
You would probably get a little more if they were graded because the buyers would know they are paying for a genuine coin.
That's a tough question. I'm not sure your average dealer will pay more for the plastic given the lower grades.
Also, depending on when they were purchased your friends may be well ahead in value due to gold rising or on the losing end of the value throwing an extra $50 into grading fees. Indians are known to be counterfeited more heavily than other gold so authenticating them does add value... but how much?
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Definitely not worth grading. Go to a reputable dealer and sell them raw.
If you simply want to flip them to the local dealer then grading the coins, as described, is a waste of time, effort and money. However, if you want to tuck them away longterm and have them retain just a bit more liquidity in the event that you have to sell them quickly then certification is not nearly so wasteful.
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Some yes, some no. Pictures?
Not trying to be difficult, but it is all about the perceived grade. I have had raw $2.50 commons come back in MS65. Or other very nice surprises.
I think the most important thing with slabbing them is to assure genuineness. An honest, competent dealer should be able to establish that for you.
This is the best answer for common date gold. Unless there is the possibility of getting 63 or higher, you are wasting money. [Has anyone seen the wholesale price of 63 Saints lately? What the heck?]
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
If you have a reputable dealer you trust near you take the coins to the dealer raw. If not, with gold at around $1900, check my math but you've got about $3,000 in gold melt value (1.75 x 0.9 = 1.575 oz x $1,900 = $2,992.50). If grading the three coins is $150 (5% of the total value) and you're somewhat close on the grades the PCGS values are...
1909-D $5 XF $720
1897 $10 XF $1,125
1922 $20 AU $2,270 (misses MS)
That's over $4,000 which more than covers the cost of getting them graded.
The chance of getting $4000 for those coins is remote. Just who is going to actually pay that much?
I'm just using the PCGS numbers as a price guide. But even if you knock off another 10%, down to $3;600, that still very much covers the $150 cost of getting the coins graded over melt value.
Checking eBay, there are no sold XF listings, so going with PCGS AU50 for a 1909-D $5, the highest price received was $610, the lowest was $570.
Based on that, I'd think $720 (or even $650) for an XF piece is quite optimistic.
The melt value of that coin today is $427 so even if you got low end it still more than cover the cost of getting in graded. This is even more true for the $10 and $20 coins. Beyond that you might get a surprise if one of the grades does come in higher.
My main point is I don't think you're going to lose money by getting these coins graded and at a minimum you'll get an education on authentication and grading.
To really answer your question we would need to know how you plan on disposing of the coins. If the plan is to sell directly to a nearby coin dealer the answer is no it would not be necessary or even a worthwhile expense. If, on the other hand, you are advising your friends to consign to an auction house or self auction via eBay )or other venues) then yes it would make the coins much easier to sell and perhaps add enough value to cover the costs.
The key to your answer is what is the method of disposal.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
This is the reason my answer was contingent on having a trusted local dealer. If you have a dealer that can accurate grade the coins and give you "fair" market value then no need to send them in for grading. Absent that the benefits of getting the coins graded (authentication, professional assessment of the grade, protection of the coins) is worth the $150 in my opinion just given the melt value and the potential premium. How much of a premium is debating but I think it would definitely be enough to covered the cost if the grades are somewhat in line with what the OP thinks the coins would grade.
Your math is off. I don't know where you got 1.75 x0.9 but a $20 gold piece is 0.9675 oz gold. So gold value is about 1.7 ounces not 1.575. That puts the gold value at 3216. Add $150 in slab fees and you are at $3400 while trying to get $4000??? Throw in 10% ebay fees and $4000 nets you $3600.
So, you are gambling $150 to try and make an extra $200. And that assumes the price of gold holds for the couple months it takes to get them graded.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
You very well could lose money by grading them. If you pay $150+ and all end up selling them at melt.
Melt on the $5 is 458. [You need to research this]. Add $50 in grading fees, you have to net $510 to break even. If AUs are selling for $570, you're going to bet $510. That's 2 months delay to break even.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
IF you don't have a dealer you trust then making $200 or possibly more if the $20 comes back MS or high AU you not only make $200 but you've authenticated the coins, got a professional grade and are protecting the coins if you decide to keep them. That's a win, win in my opinion.
Thanks for the corrections on my gold content.
Yes you could lose money by grading them, life is a gamble. No I don't need to research anything I'm not the one that needs to make a choice and I am not the one one that posted the melt values. And there are other valid reasons to have them graded besides just the value. If the op is planning on suggesting that his friends sell the coins to the market vs to a dealer then the coins will be far more liquid if they are graded as opposed to selling them raw on a venue like eBay. And if they are in TPG holders it provides some extra security against a switch out/SNAD claim from an unscrupulous buyer, there are people like that on venues like eBay. The costs of grading may be money well spent for the extra level of security against a fraudulent switch/return. It also protects them against unscrupulous dealers that might attempt to take advantage by calling the coins fake and trying to convince them that the dealer is doing them a favor by taking the coin of their hands for some ridiculous lowball price. I cannot even count the number of times that I have seen dealers do this in person at a store or read about the "rips" on a forum like this. Even trying to sell them here could bring a higher price if slabbed vs raw. So back to what I said the method of disposal is the key component in the decision to grade or not, a component that so far has not been disclosed.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
I wasn't attempting to give an exact melt value on the gold since the price over the last week or so it has varied by $40 or $50 an ounce. So $427 or $458 isn't a make or break number. I'm also assuming that the OP is somewhat accurate in his assessment of the grades and the coins will fetch more than melt value. Personally I'd bet on getting $50 above melt on these coins and probably significantly more on the $10 and $20. Beyond that, as mentioned, you've accomplished authentication of the coins, gotten an accurate grade and you're protecting the coins if the owner decides to keep them. I don't view this as a high risk proposition and it's an opportunity to learn some things in the process.
I’d grade them for authentication. This is one of the few instances where I’d recommend ANACS over PCGS and NGC since it will be a lot cheaper to slab them. It’s the authentication rather than grading that matters here.
The melt value of the $20 is about $1800 today. The AU price on the coin is $2270. Will you get that price. Probably not. There is a MS-61 on EBay selling for $2389 but we don’t know the eye appeal of the coin in question other than the OP’s opinion that it might be BU. Are you more likely to get maximum value raw or slabbed? I say slabbed and I would think at least enough to cover the cost of grading. There is value in having authentication and a professional grade. Not in every case but for the coins as described I would take the shot.
The coins in question seem to be three unimpressive, common date gold coins that the current owners want to get rid of.
Some posters seem to be of the "milk them for every possible cent" ilk regardless of how much time or bother is involved. I say just find a reputable local dealer and sell them quickly. Bank the money and move on.
You have the options clearly defined above, from different perspectives. The math is also laid out nicely for you to consider. So, I will just tell you what my course of action would be - I would get them graded/slabbed by PCGS prior to selling, and then sell on a good venue or to a trusted dealer. Good luck. Cheers, RickO
Agree with all the above... basically, it "depends" on how you want to sell and when. For me, I'm more inclined to get them slabbed but only because I'm putting together a set of Classic Gold Type and want everything in the set to at least be authenticated. So far, I've only purchased one raw coin for the gold set ($2.5 Indian) but I'll likely have that slabbed at some point when I accumulate other pieces to send in all at once.
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Agree. It could take 3 months to get the coins graded and there is almost zero upside. "Authentication" is only an issue if you aren't selling it to a dealer who can authenticate for himself. Paying money to get a common bullion coin that you are selling into an XF holder borders on madness.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
I would expect this type of comment from the ilk that likes to rip off old widows. What if there are no reputable local dealers around these folks, and how is a person off the street with no collecting experience supposed to know who is or is not reputable.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Just in the last week a thread was started by a member here who is a vest pocket dealer who sent away a gold coin to ICG that was returned to him as counterfeit. He said he bought it from a reputable dealer that claimed it was genuine and considered the coin to be in mint state condition. You act like every dealer knows how to detect counterfeits, not all can.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
I don't appreciate your comment.
Thats ok, I did not appreciate yours.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
IT DOESN'T MATTER. You are selling bullion. And once the dealer buys it, it is gone and you are done.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
You accused him of wanting to rip off old widows. What insult did he direct at you?
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Is it that you don't get it or just don't want to get it?
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Don't put words in that I did not say, I never accused anyone of anything. And by attacking me in this manor you are in violation of rule #2
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Hey gscoins, let us know what they ultimately decide to do and if they do decide to get them grade the results. And don't be discouraged by the banter. As we get old we can get set in our ways and cranky
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You're the one who didn't get it. All 3 coins could be counterfeit and there is no need to authenticate because they are selling to a dealer as bullion. He'll hit it with his gun and if it's gold you get paid.
I just sold 6 $10s, 2 $5s and 5 $20s. All common date XF/AU. Took them to a dealer. Hit it with his gun. Paid me slightly over melt. Done.
I didn't have to wait 3 months to try and get $200 dollars. And it doesn't matter if they were all counterfeit because they were good gold.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
You just don't have a clue do you, your so far off track you'll never find your way back.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
I didn't attack you. I quoted you. Your exact words were "I would expect this type of comment from the ilk who likes to rip off old widows. "
If you're looking for a violation of rule #2, how do you think your comment reads.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
P.S. I also had slabbed 62s which he paid me $25 more than the raw AUs.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
After reading this thread, I feel bad for the OP.
Depends on how you mean that. It does present both sides of the argument, with details. It is up to them to decide which way to go.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
hmmm....aren't you the rule #2 afficionado?
$50+ to slab bullion is a sunk cost you never recover. That is the long and the short of my position. I put my $30k in gold where my mouth is this very day. You can feel differently, but don't think for a moment that this isn't a legitimate position.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Nothing in my post violates the rules, I just pointed out that you have gotten so far away from what I said that your comments are no longer relevant to the discussion. Nothing but truth. You are so 100% fixated on only selling to a dealer that you have lost sight of the simple fact that most of this discussion is about other venues these could be sold thru and that for those venues grading could be beneficial. Your looking at this with blinders on.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
The information wasn’t bad. The name-calling and rudeness between members was unfortunate.
You never know what grade you may get. I bought a $20 Saint from a dealer who said to not waste my money as he saw a light scratch, sent it in with some other gold coins and it graded MS65! A lot of pleasant surprises happen with grading. Lower cost options with volume submissions are also an option with second tier companies too. Both NGC and PCGS have gold services with minimums of coins you have to send in; with NGC it is 5 and PCGS I think 10 coins.
I think you may have interpreted comments made by others as what the OP said in his original post. He never mentioned melt or even selling the coins. The discussion of melt value and sending the coins in for grading was based on not having a trusted dealer in his area. No one but the OP has seen the coins and in his opinion they are legit and grade as low as XF or as high as MS. Absent having an honest dealer that knows what he is doing the best opinion in the opinion of some is to get the coins authenticated and graded. The cost is about $150 but he gets the coins back knowing they are legit, protected and professional graded. If the $20 comes back MS-62 maybe the owners can get $200 over melt to cover the cost. The last four MS-62'S sold on Ebay went for $2065, $2245, $2425 (actually one described as PQ in an NGC holder sold for $3900 but that appears to be a fluke). Melt today for 90% gold is $1702 so even at the lowest Ebay price with fees it covers the cost of grading all three coins. This scenario isn't how you would run a business of buying and selling coins but as someone learning about coins/collecting I don't see there is a huge risk to going the route of getting them graded.
Yes getting them graded makes them more liquid on the bourse. Buyers want 3rd party assurance, coins grade, authenticity, etc.
Getting them PCGS graded highly recommended.
Plus with Pcgs app just input cert# and you get pop, MV, auc history, etc. Then you can add the coin to your Pcgs inventory, registry. A smart play.
Not at all. I have said early and often that selling through other venues for bullion is not advantageous. You are not going to get 10% over melt on eBay which is what it would take to break even. If you send them to GC, you need 15% over on anything under $1000 to break even. If you send them to Heritage/Stack's/Legends, they won't even auction them, they'll just wholesale them as bullion. Now, you can argue that BST is the way to go, but you still need to get enough over bullion to justify the expense and the 2 to 3 months of lost time.
You keep throwing out reasons to slab it, but I don't believe they hold water.
And "you just don't have a clue do you" is a personal attack, whether you mean it that way or not. Personally, I don't care and I'm not reporting you but you brought up rule #2 and then insulted me.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
dealer that knows what he is doing the best opinion in the opinion of some is to get the coins authenticated and graded. The cost is about $150 but he gets the coins back knowing they are legit, protected and professional graded. If the $20 comes back MS-62 maybe the owners can get $200 over melt to cover the cost. The last four MS-62'S sold on Ebay went for $2065, $2245, $2425 (actually one described as PQ in an NGC holder sold for $3900 but that appears to be a fluke). Melt today for 90% gold is $1702 so even at the lowest Ebay price with fees it covers the cost of grading all three coins. This scenario isn't how you would run a business of buying and selling coins but as someone learning about coins/collecting I don't see there is a huge risk to going the route of getting them graded.
I mean this in the kindest way, but please read the OP's post again (copied here):
"I have been asked by some friends to evaluate, and give guidance on the disposal of, a small collection of US coins. The collection includes three US gold coins: 1909D $5 (XF/AU), 1897 $10 (also XF/AU) and a 1922 $20 ( low end unc, though it has a couple of spots on the obverse). While I am no expert of US gold, they seem to be genuine to me (heft and appearance). From what I can tell, all are pretty much common dates. I could use the group's guidance: is the value added of grading (probably $50+ each all in using PCGS) enough to go to the expense? Or should I recommend they simply go to a coin dealer to get offers ungraded?
I would appreciate any thought folks might have"
The OP specifically mentions disposal of the collection and never says that there is no dealer available (that came from another poster). In fact, he asks whether he should just tell them to go to a dealer.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
True, the OP did say dispose and mentioned just going to a dealer. But I'm sure you would agree he wasn't suggesting just going to any dealer. Most of the discussion that followed regarding sending the coins in for grading was based on NOT having a trusted dealer.