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PCGS Guarantee experience
coastaljerseyguy
Posts: 2,170 ✭✭✭✭✭
Was thinking of sending in this Morgan 93-S for guarantee due to the graffiti on the obverse (initials WD carved on Liberty). Appears done a long time ago as the dirt is embedded in the grooves. Purchased on EBAY a while back and Seller didn't offer returns. The seller's picture did not display the initials. Was wondering if this coin was a good candidate for the guarantee of the G6 grade and should have been in a Details holder.
I want to fill that hole in my Dansco but don't dare break this out for fear of losing 25% of its value and any chance of marketability. I would sell but want the buyer to know what they're getting and not sure I would recoup my cost of $2,200+.
Any feedback appreciated.
Thanks
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I don't see anything 100% intentional in your pics that would result in a details grade.
If you felt the sellers pictures were deceptive, I would have suggested you messaged them your concerns and see what they said at the time of delivery. A bit too late for that, probably.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
I don't know what PCGS would do, but even with you saying what to look for, that was like a Where's Waldo to find it. I'm not sure I'd fault the seller for it not showing in the photo. Unless it's much more obvious in hand, I can see how it was missed.
I still don't see it... (on my 27" monitor)
Smitten with DBLCs.
I don’t really see a W but I would say the D is graffiti.
Here's a cropped pic. In hand easily noticable.
It took me a bit of looking to find it (prior to the crop pic), as to your question I have no idea how it would be handled.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Silly me...I was looking at LIBERTY for the graffiti.
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Ok now I see it. Yeah, I would have SNAD on that if the seller masked it in his pics. As is I would hope PCGS buys it back.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
PCGS has taken care of me more than a few times when I showed them problems. Send it in, along with photos and a bold description on the submission form. Nothing to lose except a little money to submit it.
Lance.
Just a friendly reminder. Grading is seldom done with a loop. I think what you found is a legitimate miss, but very understandable when you think about the average coin gets a few seconds of attention and is not looped. I think you have a good case for the guarantee, but at the end of the day, nothing is going to fix the disappointment of finding what you did.
Something that minor can easily be rendered invisible in a photo by luck of the draw if the lighting is at a certain angle. I don't think it's fair to suggest the seller did anything nefarious here.
Based on the enlargement I see the W and agree with you that it is also graffiti. I think you have a legitimate claim.
The responsibility of the seller is to accurately portray what they are selling, not just to show it off in it's best light. Photography and lighting angles are a weak excuse. That's just my two cents. And yes, I do sell on eBay myself.
If I had sold this coin without pointing out the issue, I would take it back if the buyer contacted me about it.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
Thanks for responses so far. I don't fault PCGS and realize no one or company is perfect. Even if they are 99.5% right, hundreds of grades could be suspect or misjudged. Just hope upon review they agree this issue should be noted on the slab so buyers have the right info before making decisions.
I tried to return to seller but he had posted no returns on slabbed coins, and declined my request to return. He knew there was an issue and was very curt in responses to my request. I lost a SNAD case with EBAY before on another coin, similar finding, in that a cropped photo showed a major issue was photoshopped out. EBAY CS experience was very frustrating as I went through 2 levels of review, and after weeks of dialogue back and forth & pictures, lost the case. I think EBAY was better with SNAD's early on, but side with sellers when they don't want to agree to SNAD. Their response basically was 'the slab said VF30 and that is what you got'. They know who pays the bills.
The seller knew there was an issue, but you don't fault PCGS for not seeing it?
The seller had the chance to make good and the photo's were fixed. I assuming PCGS will make good and admit this was a miss.
Please update with your results once you send it to PCGS.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
I state the seller fixed the photos because digital photography is awesome. If I want to_ really_ see my coins in all their glory and warts, I take photos and look at them. I've seen many things in photos that even my eyes with a Belomo and Zeiss 10X loupe miss. Yes, some folks take bad pictures, but when a photo is photoshopped to remove dings and major scratches, change color, etc, you can tell it has been tampered with when in hand. Just MHO. See doesn't that look much better.
If you believe that is what the seller did, then file the SNAD - the graffiti was not apparent in the photos or described in the listing, thus, I think you have a case, regardless as to whether the coin was certified. And yes, I sell on ebay, and I would describe the graffiti in the listing. Regardless, I would take the return -- a good seller would not try to stick you with a coin you are not happy with.
$2200 ain't a bad price for that 93-S. IMHO PCGS saw it and silently net graded the coin. Looks like a 10 to me.
You're missing my point. There are coins where obvious damage can be hidden. This is a coin where it took me a few minutes to find the issue when I was told about it, and PCGS clearly either missed it or didn't think it was too severe, so I'm not going to say it's necessarily obvious damage. Based on that, I think it's more than plausible that the seller just didn't see it. That's not to say that, when pointed out, he shouldn't take a return (absolutely he should), but I don't think this is a case where you can just conclude the seller did something nefarious and actively tried to be misleading. I've been photographing coins for 18 years. Especially when problems are minor, if your aren't particularly cognizant of what the light is doing to a given flaw, you can accidentally mask it. All the more so if you never even saw the flaw.
There's an enormous difference between the lighting angle causing a flaw to be masked and the seller photoshopping out a flaw, and the latter is a serious accusation of something completely unacceptable. Care to show us the original listing's photos and what makes you say they've been photoshopped?
We're working strictly off hypotheticals here. I'd like to see the sellers pics before I draw any real conclusions. Just saying, if I was the seller I would have taken it back.
I have been imaging coins for a bit as well, I am not a novice either.
I'm well aware of the capabilities a coin photographer has when it comes to using light to create a narrative they desire around a coin.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
As stated above, purchased on EBAY a while back, a couple years +, so I do not believe getting original photos can be accomplished. I don't even remember the EBAYER's handle. When I received the coin I immediateley wanted to return. I believe the graffiti is quite obvious and if removing is just angled and adjusting the lights, the seller was a photo pro. To me that 'D' stands out in any photo.
Maybe will list for sale at a price that accomplishes what I want, to replace for my Dansco and the buyer is ok as-is.
2 years ago a SNAD would automatically have been approved by eBay.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Have a look at these and decide if you want to give up the details you have for more than a grand!
https://ebay.com/sch/i.html?_dcat=11975&_fsrp=1&rt=nc&_from=R40&_nkw=1893-S+Morgan+Dollar&_sacat=0&Grade=VG%25208> @coastaljerseyguy said:
Did you ever ask the seller about a return? While I do accept returns, if I unknowingly screw up, I would want the buyer to let me know, not keep a coin they don't like because of my mistake. That said, I'd also rather the buyer send me a pleasant email and let me fix it rather than accuse me of knowingly trying to cheat him.
Yes, I replied to the seller via the EBAY email system asking to return.
This is not accurate as I have been denied a SNAD on an NGC coin as stated. I also thought it was automatic. The seller posted an NGC VF30. I received an NGC VF30, that was the EBAY reply with my denial. The seller fought against my return and EBAY sided with the seller.
Thanks for the link. Other than 2, not a nice looking bunch. Maybe in this market, I can just sell as-is, let the buyer know there is an issue, and discount. Would be happy to get funds back to repurchase something I can be happy to place in the album..
Here is the coin I lost on the SNAD return that I also still own. The seller's photos did not have the scratch on obverse. The seller also had a no returns policy and also denied my return and rejected the SNAD. I supplied EBAY with multiple photos. I don't know how this scratch can be missed/hidden unless on purpose.
Sorry,
Idk. They've never sided with me. They might apply the seller guarantee but even when I had email evidence from the buyer that it wasn't SNAD, they made me go through with the return and reimbursed me for the shipping.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
That's been my experience, too. One buyer wrote to me (through the eBay message system) that he just changed his mind about wanting a coin and was only filing a SNAD claim was because he didn't want to pay the postage to return the coin to me. I called eBay, they read the message, said the buyer was abusing their SNAD policy but I had to pay for the return anyway.
That's eBay for you.
an 1895?
I would not make such an assumption.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
About the seller or PCGS?
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
His stated assumption pertained to PCGS - “PCGS will make good and admit this was a miss.”. I would not make that assumption.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I don't know enough about it. I've never tried the guarantee. However those marks are so light, I'm not convinced they didn't see it.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
When David Hall handled the guarantees at PCGS, it was handled appropriately. Since his departure, I would be very careful with a guarantee submission. The new management team that assesses/evaluates the coins do not follow the same process as before. Guarantee “regrading” is much more subjective and loose, as it seems they are more in the habit of defending their graders original decisions on the assigned grade versus the reputation of the PCGS brand.
Its a 95-O. Except the scratch, everything else about the coin was a perfect fit in my collection. Another coin I can not break out of its slab. Almost sold it once to one of the best B&M stores in NJ. The owner bot about 50 of my PCGS and NGC slabs. He looked at it very closely then put it into the no-go pile.
I did not see the graffiti in the original picture.... It likely is more obvious in hand. Since it is now long past a reasonable time to deal with the seller, perhaps a submittal to PCGS will help. If it were mine, I would just sell it as is, with information regarding the graffiti in the sale description. Get what you can and move on. Cheers, RickO
I would submit it under the guarantee. It's obvious graffiti that we can see. The graders should of picked up on it. Since it's a better date Morgan they may have net graded it instead of details holdering it.
They should make good on it because if it was a common date Morgan, it sure would of been details holdered.
Plus, don't often counterfeited and altered date/mint coins get a good inspection?