Red to Purple Lincoln :o(
Southside7
Posts: 79 ✭✭✭
Hello all,
I stumbled upon a post from June 28, 2019 @ 9:07 AM by a member name Zoins titled Article: Blue and Purple Toned Copper Coins - Eliasberg. It was discussing MS70. In that post there were some “fact based” seemingly very knowledgeable individuals commenting. I’m hoping some of them may be able to enlighten me.
Long ago I purchased a Lincoln wheat cent from a reputable dealer that was housed in a PCGS MS64RD holder. The coin was (in my personal opinion) stunning for the grade. I purchased the coin with the full intent to crack it out and have it regraded. On a technical scale the coin was (again, in my personal opinion) easily deserving of a grade of 65 and as such would realize a substantial increase in market value.
Over many, many, many years of collecting I’d used a microfiber cloth with a dab of WD40 on it to wipe off copper. It’s always been great just to remove minor surface debris, haze, etc. Never once have I experienced a negative issue and this includes having over 1000 coppers certified by PCGS, NGC and ANACS. Most of the coins I still have today and they’re exactly as they were the day they were graded 20+ years ago.
When the (certified full blazing red) coin in question was cracked out and the WD touched the surface it instantly turned bright purple. I think I peed a little when it happened!
Can anyone educate me as to what they feel the coin had been treated with and give me any advice as to how to spot it in the future?
Also, just for clarification, I believe the dealer knew nothing of the coin having been treated and I still deal with and trust him to this day.
Thanks in advance!
Comments
I'm just commenting so I can read this thread later and learn something!
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
Wow. Got pics?
I MS-70'd a BU 40's wheat lincoln a few years back and it turned electric blue... It was quite pretty but that's all I know.
Click on this link to see my ebay listings.
Uh, wow. Theres nothing in wd40 that should oxidize that strongly. Im thinking a "paint job" is possible. [Redacted. Probably best not to give the doctors any ideas.]
Aercus Numismatics - Certified coins for sale
Can you provide any photos of this coin before and after.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
1: Copper is a very picky metal. "Improve" at your own risk.
2: I would advise against rubbing a coin with anything. You might get away with it on MS coins, but proofs would be ruined.
3: I've never tried WD40 for anything coin related, this is the first I've heard of using it.
My only experience with a cent turning blue was a common unc that had PVC haze on it. I tried some MS70 and it turned blue. I tried the same thing on a red cent and all it did was brighten it a little.
Collector, occasional seller
The MS70 does not change the color it reacts to/with what is on the surface of the coin, like your experience I have seen both a blue or purple color and little to no reaction at all.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Never heard of WD40 being used on a coin.
This is kind of a fine line, isn't it? While the MS70 itself isn't blue, the fact that it reacts with surface contaminants to create a blue color means the MS70 does change the color or, if you prefer, is the agent of change.
https://www.wired.com/2009/04/st-whatsinside-6/#:~:text=WD-40 is mostly a mix of baby oil,,Vaseline, and the goop inside homemade lava lamps.
I would also be interested to see that.
Collector, occasional seller
Generally I like to think of it as the agent of change, but I agree that it is a fine line and the argument can be made for either side.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Of course there is at least one prominent copper guy who believes the MS70 has nothing to do with the blue color other than reviving dirt to reveal it.
@Southside7 ... It would have been great to have a video of that 'transformation' your cent went through. Obviously a chemical reaction, however, I do not have any idea what may have been the other contaminant. Would be an interesting project to conduct.... have a bunch of cents, treat them with various chemicals, then apply the WD40... will show up at some point. Cheers, RickO
Just a PSA on wd40 from a friendly mechanic type: please stop using this product to stop squeaks. It is a DEgreaser, so anything squeaky is now in worse shape.
Carry on..
Hi all,
Sadly no info here on what it could have been or how to identify it. Whatever it was fooled PCGS so that's a bit scary. To be clear I'm not stating PCGS did anything wrong or inferior. Frankly it was a gorgeous and absolutely natural looking Lincoln to the point I don't think a single collector would've questioned it.
I believe I do have before and after images. However they're on a corrupted external hard drive that I haven't yet sent out for data recovery. Once I do I'll check and if there are images there I'll post them. Maybe someone will be able to spot something I didn't.
I do know, as scientific fact, there's nothing in WD40 that, at ambient temperature, will alter any ferrous or non ferrous metals color. The issue was absolutely a chemical reaction with something that had been placed on the coin prior.
I'm not sure why we're blaming the coin or PCGS. You don't need to have anything other than copper on the surface of a cent for something in the WD40 to react with it. You can easily have a foreign substance on the nozzle or in the bottle.
@jmlanzaf said: "I'm not sure why we're blaming the coin or PCGS." Uh....I don't see any "blaming" going on here....anyone else?
Why would you touch a fully red coin? This boggles my mind. Send it back in in the holder for a possible upgrade.
Maybe, just maybe, it was humid the day you did the WD40 compressed with carbon dioxide spray.....🤔
3CuO + 2CO2 + H2O → Cu3(CO3)2(OH)2 [“azurite,” blue to purple]
The second reaction that adds to patina’s color is when three molecules of copper oxide from Equation 2 can react with two molecules of carbon dioxide and one molecule of water (Equation 5). The result is azurite, which is a compound that varies in color from shades of blue to shades of purple. From https://www.worldcoppersmith.com/copper-patina-guide/
Mr_Spud
Ever hear the story of the coin collector eating hard boiled eggs while handling silver and color change mysteriously appears 🤔
🎶 shout shout, let it all out 🎶
Mr. Spud,
When this transpired the next thing I did was try the same WD with the same microfiber on several other BU Lincoln wheats simply to prove whether it was the coin or the products I was using. No reaction on the other Lincolns or on hundreds of coppers since. The coin in question had something on it that reacted to the WD (or the towel...but that's pretty far fetched).
Frankly I'm glad it transpired as it took a doctored coin out of the marketplace which is good for all collectors. It would be nice, however, to identify the cause.
"Red" copper is Cu2O, not CuO. That equation doesn't apply here. Plus I'm not sure it would anyways.
Like I said prior, I can't think of anything in WD-40 that would do this. JM does have an interesting point on contaminants, but I think this coin was messed with prior. Since we don't have all the facts, it's unfortunately mostly conjecture at this point.
OP: sorry about the coin. My advice in the future is to use pure solvents and single use disposable materials. I have the feeling that your case was unusual and there was something on the coin prior, but it is good practice anyways.
Edit to add: if I had to guess (and I'm going deep in the weeds here), it was a transition metal complex weakly adhered to the copper. I don't want to be too specific, not trying to create a guide to doctoring. That is just my guess.
Aercus Numismatics - Certified coins for sale
Semantics. You stated that PCGS missed something on the coin. I don't see any evidence of that. Could just be finger oils or something quite normal.
Ok, maybe the red cent had something like coin care or mineral oil which was helping to keep the copper from oxidizing and the WD40 just degreased it and left behind an even thinner layer mixed with WD40 residue and now you have thin film interference causing purple to be visible because it’s just the right thickness.
I wonder if the color would dissapear if you soaked it in mineral oil?
Mr_Spud
We've got someone using a microfiber cloth (new? old?) and vaseline & mineral oil on a coin. I'm not sure there isn't any number of possible chemistries. It could have been some production residue in the cloth reacting with either the vaseline or mineral oils or alkanes in the WD40.