GTG 1956-D 10c **Hints Didn't Work, Grade Revealed in 1st Post**
If you know because of DM discussions with me, please refrain and enjoy your popcorn.
I will say that this has been graded three times, twice by our host and once by ATS. The grade was the same each time.
The photo is a PCGS True View.
Grade Revealed Link to the Full TrueView
https://d1htnxwo4o0jhw.cloudfront.net/pcgs/cert/37397169/166380925.jpg
Our Host says Damage 98. On the Label it had WHEEL MARK
I did not see it after the first time it was slabbed.
I did not see it after the second time it was slabbed.
For the money it sure would be nice to get more information.
I have seen coins graded "problem free" that darn near have hatchet marks in them.
I sent the coin ATS thinking I might get a different opinion and I did not. They were consistent with our host and I appreciate that BUT they at least said REVERSE WHEEL MARK on the label. I really appreciate that level of guidance, eliminating one half of the coin. But guess what, with the coin in hand and the ability to look at the MAX True View, I still don't see it. My eyes have not been educated as a grader. All of that said, if they are talking about the darker streak of toning that goes through the middle of UNITED then I am still baffled. There is no metal movement that I can see anywhere on the obverse or reverse that indicates damage to me.
I would rather have this knocked down a grade and actually GRADED than have it in a holder that claims damage. When I see coins with darn near hatchet marks grade but not this one, all I can do is shake my head.
So, with your eagle eyes, can you pinpoint the DAMAGE?
Not really looking for much these days but if I were, it might be a toner.
Comments
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Very nice dime! I would guess 67 FB
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Nice dime. 67+?
Need a Barber Half with ANACS photo certificate. If you have one for sale please PM me. Current Ebay auctions1 -
Super nice coin and I should think it’s way up there in the grade.
67 and or +Happy, humble, honored and proud recipient of the “You Suck” award 10/22/2014
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Love the toning. I’d say 67, very close for FB, but maybe a bit short.
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It's wonderful. I'll guess MS67+FB.
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67
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67+ FB
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I would say 66...FB... tarnished
Cheers, RickO3 -
I’m not that fond of it. So I’ll guess...
68FB
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
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67+ FB... very nice
Collecting: Dansco 7070; Middle Date Large Cents (VF-AU); Box of 20;
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Thanks everyone! No one has guessed it yet. Keep trying. I’ll post the answer this evening.
"If it's not fun, it's not worth it." - KeyMan64
Not really looking for much these days but if I were, it might be a toner.0 -
66
Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc
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Hint Zero from the original post
All three attempts resulted in the same opinion.Hint One
Had the coin received one of the many nice grade numbers mentioned above the first time, it would not have been cracked out and tried again. Had the coin received one of the many nice grade numbers mentioned above the second time, it would not have been cracked out and tried again and sent ATS to try there for the third attempt.Hint Two
It is NOT AT.Ready set gooooooooo.
And are you able to pinpoint the defining characteristic that made the TPGs run with this opinion?
Do you think it is the right opinion?"If it's not fun, it's not worth it." - KeyMan64
Not really looking for much these days but if I were, it might be a toner.0 -
AU58
Mr_Spud
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66+ with hits above the eye brow?
bob
Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), bobinvegas1989@yahoo.com1 -
58.
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MS65 (tics on the portrait?)
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No one has it yet.
"If it's not fun, it's not worth it." - KeyMan64
Not really looking for much these days but if I were, it might be a toner.0 -
I’m thinking that since the coin was graded the same on three different occasions, and by both PCGS and NGC, maybe their sight-seen opinion is relevant.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
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Ok, then I guess 64 and it has something to do with the left side upper bands of the torch
Mr_Spud
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@MFeld said:
I’m thinking that since the coin was graded the same on three different occasions, and by both PCGS and NGC, maybe their sight-seen opinion is relevant.😉I can agree with that and appreciate it. When I reveal in a couple of hours I will link to the full TV image and see if people can identify the characteristic that causes this opinion.
"If it's not fun, it's not worth it." - KeyMan64
Not really looking for much these days but if I were, it might be a toner.0 -
Any other guess from @MFeld or @TomB
Be harsh and just wildly guess, including something you might not be able to see from the pics. What other possibilities do you think there are?"If it's not fun, it's not worth it." - KeyMan64
Not really looking for much these days but if I were, it might be a toner.0 -
Why would I guess, based on something I can’t see in the pictures? I prefer not to guess wildly - at least not intentionally.😄
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
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@MFeld said:
Why would I guess, based on something I can’t see in the pictures? I prefer not to guess wildly - at least not intentionally.😄
At this point it would be for entertainment but if you do not feel entertained I can certainly understand you avoiding it. I will be interested in your thoughts when I post the link to the Max TV...which could possibly lead to another thread discussion.
"If it's not fun, it's not worth it." - KeyMan64
Not really looking for much these days but if I were, it might be a toner.0 -
Did it come back cleaned? I've seen neatly toned coins such as this with what the services call a cleaning (under the toning). It doesn't really appear to be the case here, yet it a guess based on prior coins I've seen.
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@braddick said:
Did it come back cleaned? I've seen neatly toned coins such as this with what the services call a cleaning (under the toning). It doesn't really appear to be the case here, yet it a guess based on prior coins I've seen.Not cleaned but certainly a valid guess.
"If it's not fun, it's not worth it." - KeyMan64
Not really looking for much these days but if I were, it might be a toner.0 -
BUMP. Reveal in first post.
"If it's not fun, it's not worth it." - KeyMan64
Not really looking for much these days but if I were, it might be a toner.0 -
@keyman64 said:
If you know because of DM discussions with me, please refrain and enjoy your popcorn.
I will say that this has been graded three times, twice by our host and once by ATS. The grade was the same each time.
The photo is a PCGS True View.Grade Revealed Link to the Full TrueView
https://d1htnxwo4o0jhw.cloudfront.net/pcgs/cert/37397169/166380925.jpgOur Host says Damage 98. On the Label it had WHEEL MARK
I did not see it after the first time it was slabbed.
I did not see it after the second time it was slabbed.
For the money it sure would be nice to get more information.
I have seen coins graded "problem free" that darn near have hatchet marks in them.
I sent the coin ATS thinking I might get a different opinion and I did not. They were consistent with our host and I appreciate that BUT they at least said REVERSE WHEEL MARK on the label. I really appreciate that level of guidance, eliminating one half of the coin. But guess what, with the coin in hand and the ability to look at the MAX True View, I still don't see it. My eyes have not been educated as a grader. All of that said, if they are talking about the darker streak of toning that goes through the middle of UNITED then I am still baffled. There is no metal movement that I can see anywhere on the obverse or reverse that indicates damage to me.I would rather have this knocked down a grade and actually GRADED than have it in a holder that claims damage. When I see coins with darn near hatchet marks grade but not this one, all I can do is shake my head.
So, with your eagle eyes, can you pinpoint the DAMAGE?
I’m not at all surprised that a wheel mark wasn’t apparent in the images - sometimes they can be difficult to detect, even in-hand.
Many years ago, a client submitted a coin which came back “wheel mark” and he couldn’t see it. I had him send the coin to me. But even with advance notice of what I was looking for, it took me more than a few seconds to locate it. Halogen lamps can be very helpful for detecting such flaws.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
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Is it the damage on the left side of the top bands and also the tips of the leaf next to the top band? Like maybe if they used a loupe to see if it was full bands that black Mark on the right end if the upper bands might actually be identifiable damage maybe?
Mr_Spud
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Thanks @MFeld
Clearly, at least 3 graders and 3 finalizers see it (if that's how it works). I can appreciate the consistency....but it ticks me off that I can't see it when I blow up a photo to the size of Texas and then wonder why some coins with hatchet marks get put into problem free holders. I have looked at this coin under different lighting, including halogens, with a 10x and 20x and can't find it. I admit my eyes haven't been EDUCATED but geez! I have had to correct TPGs multiple times when it comes to variety attributions so there are areas where my eyes have been plenty more educated than graders at TPGs. It's just frustrating and I would like to be shown exactly what is so freaking terrible that this coin can't be graded when hatchet marks seem just fine.I can take it to Summer FUN in case you happen to be there or anyone else wants to look at it. I would love to be educated as to why this can't be graded. I know PCGS is only taking submissions at the show so I guess they won't have graders. Hmmm
"If it's not fun, it's not worth it." - KeyMan64
Not really looking for much these days but if I were, it might be a toner.0 -
@Mr_Spud said:
Is it the damage on the left side of the top bands and also the tips of the leaf next to the top band?No clue, maybe. If that is it then my comments stand that I would want the coin graded while taking into account any and all hits...but taking them as hits, not something that can't be graded.
"If it's not fun, it's not worth it." - KeyMan64
Not really looking for much these days but if I were, it might be a toner.1 -
@Mr_Spud said:
Is it the damage on the left side of the top bands and also the tips of the leaf next to the top band? Like maybe if they used a loupe to see if it was full bands that black Mark on the right end if the upper bands might actually be identifiable damage maybe?You’re not describing a wheel mark.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
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Wow. That's tough! I wonder, with the coin in hand, if tilted under just the right lighting conditions (the kind the graders use), if it then can be seen? Otherwise, I can see why you would crack and resubmit.
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https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/4412/Wheel-Marks/
The rows of parallel hairlines under the toning going slightly upwards from one end of the white rectangle to the other resemble the wheel marks in the NGC Wheel Mark link above. The lines continue through the damaged looking leaf tip and sort of end right after the black mark on the edge of the upper bands of the torch. Maybe? 🤔
Mr_Spud
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@keyman64 said:
Thanks @MFeld
Clearly, at least 3 graders and 3 finalizers see it (if that's how it works). I can appreciate the consistency....but it ticks me off that I can't see it when I blow up a photo to the size of Texas and then wonder why some coins with hatchet marks get put into problem free holders. I have looked at this coin under different lighting, including halogens, with a 10x and 20x and can't find it. I admit my eyes haven't been EDUCATED but geez! I have had to correct TPGs multiple times when it comes to variety attributions so there are areas where my eyes have been plenty more educated than graders at TPGs. It's just frustrating and I would like to be shown exactly what is so freaking terrible that this coin can't be graded when hatchet marks seem just fine.I can take it to Summer FUN in case you happen to be there or anyone else wants to look at it. I would love to be educated as to why this can't be graded. I know PCGS is only taking submissions at the show so I guess they won't have graders. Hmmm
You’re most welcome. No need to be upset, just because you can’t see it in pictures. Often, other problems such as cleaning and spot removals don’t show in images, either. That’s because pictures aren’t a substitute for tilting and rotating a coin under a light.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
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Good video ... explaining wheel marks & how difficult they are in noticing them
"Bongo drive 1984 Lincoln that looks like old coin dug from ground."1 -
Agree that hatchet marks would be worse than these tiny flaws
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
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I feel you, I have a 44-S merc that I was sure was a 67FB. It came back with Wheel Mark Details. I think I can kind of see the marks, but I don't know. I need to pull it out and take another look.
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@OPA said:
Good video ... explaining wheel marks & how difficult they are in noticing themYup, good video, thanks. I intended this thread as an educational one and hope it has been for more than just me.
"If it's not fun, it's not worth it." - KeyMan64
Not really looking for much these days but if I were, it might be a toner.0 -
It does bring up the question, why are minor wheel marks an automatic rejection? Is it mostly due to tradition at this point?
As someone here said, there are big hits/scratches and other problems on coins that still straight grade.
Maybe the problem is our grading method of reducing things to a grade. Maybe a grade on the label plus a few remarks (or even codes) would help not only to describe the coin better but also let people have a clearer idea what the graders saw.
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@Mr_Spud said:
https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/4412/Wheel-Marks/The rows of parallel hairlines under the toning going slightly upwards from one end of the white rectangle to the other resemble the wheel marks in the NGC Wheel Mark link above. The lines continue through the damaged looking leaf tip and sort of end right after the black mark on the edge of the upper bands of the torch. Maybe? 🤔
I think you're right. Man, that's small to me. The lines in the pic all angle in the same direction.
But what the heck do I know? I said a mint state Buff had wear.
I really got to quit these things. I can't trust my opinions anymore.
Pete
"I tell them there's no problems.....only solutions" - John Lennon2 -
ANACS, here I come.
Need a Barber Half with ANACS photo certificate. If you have one for sale please PM me. Current Ebay auctions3 -
I'm no expert on grading, but I know a few things. My thoughts.....
- Don't beat yourself up if you miss a coin's grade by a mile when judging from a photo. It's a fun exercise, and you can learn a lot about grading this way, but there are certain problems (and qualities) that you will never catch in a photo. There is no substitute for seeing a coin in-hand, out of a holder (if possible) in ideal lighting conditions.
- Professional graders are pretty darn good! Literally they spend thousands of hours doing it. It's their day job. In my whole life I've probably spent as much time looking at coins as they do in a few weeks.
- If three different sets of graders saw the same thing three different times, the problem is there, and the OP just hasn't recognized it yet. Chances are, it is impossible (or nearly impossible) to see from even the best photos.
- The linked video is fantastic. The problem is completely invisible except at one particular angle. Once you see it, it's tremendously obvious, and it's not forgivable. It amounts to a horrendous patch of nasty hairlines, really.
- Seeing and understanding are two different things. You won't believe what a radiologist can gather from an X-ray in a 5 second look. A new med student will stare at the same thing for an hour, seeing the same image...... but understanding nothing. The new med student might have a perfect SAT, have perfect eyesight, and be a Rhode's scholar, but just lacks enough experience to interpret what they're seeing correctly.
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Possibly the marks that go though “Dim”?
Many happy BST transactions0 -
I wonder what the magnification was that was used?
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@Jimnight said:
I wonder what the magnification was that was used?Typically, once you tilt and rotate such a coin just right, you shouldn’t need any magnification to see the wheel mark.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
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@TurtleCat said:
It does bring up the question, why are minor wheel marks an automatic rejection? Is it mostly due to tradition at this point?As someone here said, there are big hits/scratches and other problems on coins that still straight grade.
Maybe the problem is our grading method of reducing things to a grade. Maybe a grade on the label plus a few remarks (or even codes) would help not only to describe the coin better but also let people have a clearer idea what the graders saw.
I was just about to type all of that.
Wheel marks (to me) seem like a completely normal part of circulation. Maybe a coin with wheel marks should top out at AU58 or something, but I’m still failing to see why it precludes a grade.
The graders are like “you can’t see the problem, but trust us, your coon is damaged beyond acceptance.”
There’s probably a better reason, and I hope someone can give it to me.
I like the dime in the OP.2 -
@ShaunBC5 said:
@TurtleCat said:
It does bring up the question, why are minor wheel marks an automatic rejection? Is it mostly due to tradition at this point?As someone here said, there are big hits/scratches and other problems on coins that still straight grade.
Maybe the problem is our grading method of reducing things to a grade. Maybe a grade on the label plus a few remarks (or even codes) would help not only to describe the coin better but also let people have a clearer idea what the graders saw.
I was just about to type all of that.
Wheel marks (to me) seem like a completely normal part of circulation. Maybe a coin with wheel marks should top out at AU58 or something, but I’m still failing to see why it precludes a grade.
The graders are like “you can’t see the problem, but trust us, your coon is damaged beyond acceptance.”
There’s probably a better reason, and I hope someone can give it to me.
I like the dime in the OP.It’s damage, not normal circulation marks. And often, graders detect tooling, repairs and other issues that many viewers might miss. Would you want those coins to be straight-graded too?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
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I'd like it all to be net-graded.
If the problem is so small and difficult to detect, should it be worth all of the points?Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
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