@TurtleCat said:
It does bring up the question, why are minor wheel marks an automatic rejection? Is it mostly due to tradition at this point?
As someone here said, there are big hits/scratches and other problems on coins that still straight grade.
Maybe the problem is our grading method of reducing things to a grade. Maybe a grade on the label plus a few remarks (or even codes) would help not only to describe the coin better but also let people have a clearer idea what the graders saw.
I was just about to type all of that.
Wheel marks (to me) seem like a completely normal part of circulation. Maybe a coin with wheel marks should top out at AU58 or something, but I’m still failing to see why it precludes a grade.
The graders are like “you can’t see the problem, but trust us, your coon is damaged beyond acceptance.”
There’s probably a better reason, and I hope someone can give it to me.
I like the dime in the OP.
It’s damage, not normal circulation marks. And often, graders detect tooling, repairs and other issues that many viewers might miss. Would you want those coins to be straight-graded too?
I wonder if something akin to NGC’s ancient coin grading would be helpful as a middle ground. The coin could straight grade (however determined) and then a listing of relative issues. Like strike, damage, etc. I think many people would say a simple number is generally not enough to adequately describe certain coins.
It could be a specialty slab tier like when the TPGs introduced detail holders originally. That way the TPG is not locked into only one or the other option and it may reduce some shenanigans done to get it straight grades.
Wheel/counting machine marks can be hard to see, that’s for sure. I’ve had many Buffalo nickels come back as such, and usually don’t spot them until after the fact.
Not sure why damage that happened after the minting process would be considered anything but PMD.
@MFeld I’m sure I’m showing my ignorance here, but also legitimately trying to learn.
Tooling and repair are intentional modifications. Is there anything intentional/modifying about wheel marks?
This might move to a discussion of “honest wear” vs damage, but my untrained senses have trouble with the OP coin being details and my AG3 coin having a straight grade with no “damage.”
Thanks for your insight.
The original point is that there are many, many coins with far worse post-mint damage --- more severe metal movement, much more visible marks, from other coins and other objects-- in "straight grades" and that this makes little sense if one thinks about it and uses logic. Why are near-invisible 'wheel marks', presumably from coin counting and rolling machines, considered so vicious as to require a No Grade??
On the reverse on the torch you can see 2 maybe three marks... you can see them because of their luster... this is the wheel marks... it will not be roller marks like early coinage they are digs on the coin. It will not be striations, typically. I believe on the top of the torch under the game you see 2 digs that are indicative of wheel marks... in my experience.
I just watched the video posted in this thread and looked at my 44-S details merc. I can definitely see the wheel mark now. It's a details coin, no question.
@ShaunBC5 said: @MFeld I’m sure I’m showing my ignorance here, but also legitimately trying to learn.
Tooling and repair are intentional modifications. Is there anything intentional/modifying about wheel marks?
This might move to a discussion of “honest wear” vs damage, but my untrained senses have trouble with the OP coin being details and my AG3 coin having a straight grade with no “damage.”
Thanks for your insight.
I see no ignorance in your post. Yes, tooling and repairs are intentional, while wheel marks aren’t. But my point was that just because a problem - intentional or otherwise - which graders detect, can be missed by many other viewers, shouldn’t be a reason to straight-grade a coin.
Still, I can certainly understand why you and some other posters to this thread feel that coins with such wheel marks might deserve straight grades. It would be interesting to see whether your opinions would change, were you to be able to view the coin in hand and shown the wheel mark.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@TurtleCat said:
It does bring up the question, why are minor wheel marks an automatic rejection? Is it mostly due to tradition at this point?
As someone here said, there are big hits/scratches and other problems on coins that still straight grade.
Maybe the problem is our grading method of reducing things to a grade. Maybe a grade on the label plus a few remarks (or even codes) would help not only to describe the coin better but also let people have a clearer idea what the graders saw.
I was just about to type all of that.
Wheel marks (to me) seem like a completely normal part of circulation. Maybe a coin with wheel marks should top out at AU58 or something, but I’m still failing to see why it precludes a grade.
The graders are like “you can’t see the problem, but trust us, your coon is damaged beyond acceptance.”
There’s probably a better reason, and I hope someone can give it to me.
I like the dime in the OP.
It’s damage, not normal circulation marks. And often, graders detect tooling, repairs and other issues that many viewers might miss. Would you want those coins to be straight-graded too?
I wonder if something akin to NGC’s ancient coin grading would be helpful as a middle ground. The coin could straight grade (however determined) and then a listing of relative issues. Like strike, damage, etc. I think many people would say a simple number is generally not enough to adequately describe certain coins.
It could be a specialty slab tier like when the TPGs introduced detail holders originally. That way the TPG is not locked into only one or the other option and it may reduce some shenanigans done to get it straight grades.
If you’re going to do that, you might as well do it for all problems. And I’m not being sarcastic. But I think it would be a very slippery slope.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I think wheel marks are next to impossible to detect from a straight on pic.
I also think they should be details graded although it's a tough pill to swallow on otherwise exceptionally nice coins.
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
You need to look at the coin in bad light for looking at the coin. Tilt it away from you or away from the light and rotate it to see if the light hits the wheel mark and lights it up. Hard to explain, easy to demonstrate. The flash of a wheel mark is different from the flash of the luster. You want to light the coin to that you aren't seeing the flash of the luster as you rotate it. Maybe this helps, maybe not.
Quick question: will any sign of wheel marks prevent a straight grade, or can a coin with barely noticeable wheel marks get a straight grade?
(Based on the discussion above, it seems that the wheel marks on this coin, when viewed by an expert at the right angle, would appear at least moderately distracting)
It's a patch of hairlines, similar to a light spot cleaning. It was easier for me to see on my merc if I rotated the coin 90 degrees and tilted it just right. Also, I needed 10X magnification to see it, but my eyesight isn't the best.
Fascinating discussion.. sounds like a coin can appear attractive and very high grade until an expert turns it and looks at it a very specific way, and then it loses all of its appeal and becomes a worthless embarrassment. But that can't be right, can it? Does it lose all 65+ grading points?
If not, about how many points deduction is something of this magnitude worth, to, you know, Experts?
@Baley said:
Fascinating discussion.. sounds like a coin can appear attractive and very high grade until an expert turns it and looks at it a very specific way, and then it loses all of its appeal and becomes a worthless embarrassment. But that can't be right, can it? Does it lose all 65+ grading points?
If not, about how many points deduction is something of this magnitude worth, to, you know, Experts?
You could ask the same about certain coins that have been cleaned or had spots removed. Depending upon the particulars, some of them are details-graded, while others receive straight grades.
It’s not that such coins “lose all 65+ grading points”. I believe that much of the problem/difficulty is trying to arrive at a compromise straight grade that’s fair and makes sense. How many points do you deduct for a given problem to account for it properly, without penalizing the coin too much? Sometimes there’s no good answer.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@MFeld commented: "You could ask the same about certain coins that have been cleaned or had spots removed. Depending upon the particulars, some of them are details-graded, while others receive straight grades."
I think that gets to the point that I was hoping to confirm: is it true that wheel marks are not an all or nothing type thing? That is, a coin with very subtle signs of wheel marks (but noticeable to any informed person) could still straight grade?
With coin doctoring, I think grading practices are "all or nothing", and this seems reasonable. That is, the services will not straight grade a coin that is "very slightly tooled" or "very slightly puttied". I would hope that wheel marks (or something like album slide marks) are not all or nothing, but can straight grade if they are very slight.
Here's the most recent one I had come back with machine damage. It is hard to see and I missed it when submitting. I feel its far from worthless even given the details grade. (it is on the cheek)
@Higashiyama said: @MFeld commented: "You could ask the same about certain coins that have been cleaned or had spots removed. Depending upon the particulars, some of them are details-graded, while others receive straight grades."
I think that gets to the point that I was hoping to confirm: is it true that wheel marks are not an all or nothing type thing? That is, a coin with very subtle signs of wheel marks (but noticeable to any informed person) could still straight grade?
With coin doctoring, I think grading practices are "all or nothing", and this seems reasonable. That is, the services will not straight grade a coin that is "very slightly tooled" or "very slightly puttied". I would hope that wheel marks (or something like album slide marks) are not all or nothing, but can straight grade if they are very slight.
Sorry, I don't know the answer to your question: "is it true that wheel marks are not an all or nothing type thing?"
But I will say that it's definitely not "all or nothing with coin doctoring. Many coins which have been doctored in some way are straight-graded.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@MFeld: but for coin doctoring, isn't it more that the doctoring is missed or is viewed as ambiguous and given a pass?
Also, "there is doctoring, and then there is doctoring"! A bit of accelerated toning is likely to be overlooked, whereas moving metal, if detected, will presumably result in a no grade.
Comments
I wonder if something akin to NGC’s ancient coin grading would be helpful as a middle ground. The coin could straight grade (however determined) and then a listing of relative issues. Like strike, damage, etc. I think many people would say a simple number is generally not enough to adequately describe certain coins.
It could be a specialty slab tier like when the TPGs introduced detail holders originally. That way the TPG is not locked into only one or the other option and it may reduce some shenanigans done to get it straight grades.
Wheel/counting machine marks can be hard to see, that’s for sure. I’ve had many Buffalo nickels come back as such, and usually don’t spot them until after the fact.
Not sure why damage that happened after the minting process would be considered anything but PMD.
@MFeld I’m sure I’m showing my ignorance here, but also legitimately trying to learn.
Tooling and repair are intentional modifications. Is there anything intentional/modifying about wheel marks?
This might move to a discussion of “honest wear” vs damage, but my untrained senses have trouble with the OP coin being details and my AG3 coin having a straight grade with no “damage.”
Thanks for your insight.
The original point is that there are many, many coins with far worse post-mint damage --- more severe metal movement, much more visible marks, from other coins and other objects-- in "straight grades" and that this makes little sense if one thinks about it and uses logic. Why are near-invisible 'wheel marks', presumably from coin counting and rolling machines, considered so vicious as to require a No Grade??
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
On the reverse on the torch you can see 2 maybe three marks... you can see them because of their luster... this is the wheel marks... it will not be roller marks like early coinage they are digs on the coin. It will not be striations, typically. I believe on the top of the torch under the game you see 2 digs that are indicative of wheel marks... in my experience.
Jason
Sorry for the crappy drawing... but this is where the wheel marks are and why it would be apparent to all 3 graders
I just watched the video posted in this thread and looked at my 44-S details merc. I can definitely see the wheel mark now. It's a details coin, no question.
I see no ignorance in your post. Yes, tooling and repairs are intentional, while wheel marks aren’t. But my point was that just because a problem - intentional or otherwise - which graders detect, can be missed by many other viewers, shouldn’t be a reason to straight-grade a coin.
Still, I can certainly understand why you and some other posters to this thread feel that coins with such wheel marks might deserve straight grades. It would be interesting to see whether your opinions would change, were you to be able to view the coin in hand and shown the wheel mark.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
If you’re going to do that, you might as well do it for all problems. And I’m not being sarcastic. But I think it would be a very slippery slope.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I think wheel marks are next to impossible to detect from a straight on pic.
I also think they should be details graded although it's a tough pill to swallow on otherwise exceptionally nice coins.
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress
You need to look at the coin in bad light for looking at the coin. Tilt it away from you or away from the light and rotate it to see if the light hits the wheel mark and lights it up. Hard to explain, easy to demonstrate. The flash of a wheel mark is different from the flash of the luster. You want to light the coin to that you aren't seeing the flash of the luster as you rotate it. Maybe this helps, maybe not.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
This is an interesting discussion!
Quick question: will any sign of wheel marks prevent a straight grade, or can a coin with barely noticeable wheel marks get a straight grade?
(Based on the discussion above, it seems that the wheel marks on this coin, when viewed by an expert at the right angle, would appear at least moderately distracting)
It's a patch of hairlines, similar to a light spot cleaning. It was easier for me to see on my merc if I rotated the coin 90 degrees and tilted it just right. Also, I needed 10X magnification to see it, but my eyesight isn't the best.
@MFeld
Agreed! If I found these wheel marks on a straight graded coin I had purchased, I would be pissed.
Fascinating discussion.. sounds like a coin can appear attractive and very high grade until an expert turns it and looks at it a very specific way, and then it loses all of its appeal and becomes a worthless embarrassment. But that can't be right, can it? Does it lose all 65+ grading points?
If not, about how many points deduction is something of this magnitude worth, to, you know, Experts?
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
You could ask the same about certain coins that have been cleaned or had spots removed. Depending upon the particulars, some of them are details-graded, while others receive straight grades.
It’s not that such coins “lose all 65+ grading points”. I believe that much of the problem/difficulty is trying to arrive at a compromise straight grade that’s fair and makes sense. How many points do you deduct for a given problem to account for it properly, without penalizing the coin too much? Sometimes there’s no good answer.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@MFeld commented: "You could ask the same about certain coins that have been cleaned or had spots removed. Depending upon the particulars, some of them are details-graded, while others receive straight grades."
I think that gets to the point that I was hoping to confirm: is it true that wheel marks are not an all or nothing type thing? That is, a coin with very subtle signs of wheel marks (but noticeable to any informed person) could still straight grade?
With coin doctoring, I think grading practices are "all or nothing", and this seems reasonable. That is, the services will not straight grade a coin that is "very slightly tooled" or "very slightly puttied". I would hope that wheel marks (or something like album slide marks) are not all or nothing, but can straight grade if they are very slight.
Here's the most recent one I had come back with machine damage. It is hard to see and I missed it when submitting. I feel its far from worthless even given the details grade. (it is on the cheek)
@clarkbar04: thanks for posting that. It would really instructive to see your coin and the OP coin in person.
Maybe to be consistent with the name, when PCGS does TrueViews of “problem”, they should take photos that highlight the problem!
Sorry, I don't know the answer to your question: "is it true that wheel marks are not an all or nothing type thing?"
But I will say that it's definitely not "all or nothing with coin doctoring. Many coins which have been doctored in some way are straight-graded.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@MFeld: but for coin doctoring, isn't it more that the doctoring is missed or is viewed as ambiguous and given a pass?
Also, "there is doctoring, and then there is doctoring"!
A bit of accelerated toning is likely to be overlooked, whereas moving metal, if detected, will presumably result in a no grade.