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Has something in grading drastically changed?
Southside7
Posts: 79 ✭✭✭
Pop 1 1910-S Lincoln in PCGS MS67+RD with a sticker
Didn't the rim (and strike) used to count in consideration of the grade, at least at this lofty 5 figure grade? I'm confused on this one...
To be clear...not discounting the beauty of the coin. Just seems to me something is amiss.
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I agree with the red designation and I have no issue with the strike but that rim disturbance would bother me, to no end, especially at that level.
Hard pass.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
I'm wondering if they thought it happened during the minting process and not PMD.....
Or did they miss it?...............well, they see it now!
Even if that was true; I would still be bothered by it.
Damage is damage, regardless of the source.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
It would bother me as well. But if it happened during the minting process, is it damage. Is a true mint error damage?
It would bother me regardless of its origin. It's a shame as it's such a beautiful coin otherwise.
I like it, its different, high grade and you can see the results of the mint's error
Looks like a planchet error as made. Back when I was running a grading service, I would have mentioned this on the photo certificate.
Now, would that have lowered the value, or not?
For that kind of money, even if it's a top pop, I'd pass.
Not good!
It does look like a planchet defect... and I feel it should be noted as such. Cheers, RickO
Here's the TrueView.
Love the color and strike.
I doubt people will miss it with the photos we have today. But will people care?
I think it deserves a straight grade, but I'd probably knock off one point for the planchet problem. So if the coin is otherwise a 68, 67 might be the best net grade.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Pass
Well then, I guess that was just not large enough...
The following codes summarize the various problems that preclude a numerical grade by PCGS:
82 Filed Rims Rim(s) and/or edge is filed.
91 Questionable Color Any artificial re-toning – dipped copper.
92 Cleaning Harsh cleaning or polishing.
93 Planchet Flaw Generally large – prominent flaw(s).
94 Altered Surfaces Any applied substance (wax, putty, lacquer).
95 Scratch(s) Large – prominent scratch(s).
97 Environmental Damage Corrosion, excessive toning, verdigris.
98 Damage Any metal movement.
Agree. Looks like a sharp strike with a very small edge clip on the planchet that spread out against the collar.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Looks like a planchet error as made. Back when I was running a grading service, I would have mentioned this on the photo certificate.
Now, would that have lowered the value, or not?
And if that's the case, true or false: the TPG's will not attribute an error unless designated?
I'm just asking here because I don't know.
I'd rather have a noticeably lower grade than this one for a low fraction of the price. I will accept this kind of defect on a scarce coin but not one that is as common as any Lincoln cent.
Maybe that's what held it back from a 68+
I'd call that a partial planchet clip, so not really damage.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
Too distracting to the overall balance of the coin to be classified as anything else than a mint error.
I think very few Lincoln specialists will feel comfortable recommending this coin to a prospective buyer
Best (picture) I've ever seen for color and surfaces. A damned shame
You can rationalize this away a number of different ways, but it bugs me. To answer the OP's actual question, yes, I think it grading has fundamentally changed - at least I don't think it's likely to have received that grade (or maybe any grade) if submitted 15-20 years ago.
For those of you that have a problem with the grade, a question: Is the grade the real problem, or is the problem that the market values a 67 at 10X the 66 price? Because if it were 2X, yawn.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
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Tom, formerly in Albuquerque, NM.
Well as a long time Lincoln cent collector I would pass on this coin. It is a shame because without that flaw it would indeed be a very nice coin, however it is far form fully struck and I would grade this as MS65 max without the flaw. I would pass on this coin at any price over $100, it would make a nice conversation piece but a top pop coin should be better in many respects and at the MS67+ level flawless should be the norm.
The buyer for this coin is a points buyer, someone that is more concerned with registry points and not the quality of the coin. Make no mistake this coin will sell, there are points buyers in the market. I myself have been guilty of doing this a few times and have regretted those buys, but I have learned form those buys so they were not completely terrible from that standpoint.
My Collection of Old Holders
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Forget about the value in various grades. If you feel it should straight grade, lower the grade (further?) to (try to properly) account for the mint-made flaw.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
You see them everyday. It is obviously not PMD so they grade it.
Minor error. Minor variety. Minor VAM.
Many don't rise to the value making it worthy to attribute.
I personally think it is a unique and really cool coin.
But I am biased.
Just got back a 20% off center strike that came back MS67.
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Your posts remind me of someone who has had multiple alts banned and threads deleted for bashing CAC.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
as long as it is not @jmlanzaf, DO NOT FEED THE TROLL
I’m guessing you’ve had multiple alts and I tend to be a good guesser.
Your use of the adjective “ridiculous” to describe CAC stickers, sounds more like bashing than pointing out facts. But that’s for the moderators here to decide.
I’m not paid to post here. I’ve done so, off and in for more than 20 years, whether conducting my own business or working for someone else at the time. And if anyone is “stomping their feet”, you’re the one making the noise and exerting yourself. Have a peaceful remainder of the night and try not to get banned too soon.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I had the coin in my hand and it was amazing. Certainly the best 10-S Lincoln I've ever seen (by far), and I owned another 10-S in P67RD. Frankly, I think 67+ IS a net grade (and JA thought it was solid for the grade)...and no, it's not my coin.
At the end of the day, any collector will need to like the coin to purchase it...as with any coin.
@KellyGreen77
Welcome - now please leave town.
You must be new to the national numismatic scene. @MFeld has been a fixture in our field for more than 30 years. Around here, he is widely known for his highly skilled and objective advice. He has discouraged many collectors from buying coins that "weren't for them" and pleased many more whose tastes he understood and catered to.
But it's not really about Mark. I guess he's superficially a good target as an employee of Heritage, but his Illuminatti. duties take precedence over that .
From what I've seen,
You came here to spew.
Rage against the machine!
That's the order from "Q".
BURMA SHAVE
Welcome
And I'm guessing you struck a nerve.
Not something I collect, but planchet flaw and all, I find the coin very appealing.
KellyGreen77
MFeld was a Grader and Finalizer at NGC for many years. He may have seen a coin or two in his time.
What about you?
You took the words right outta my mouth. In my mind, “Even as struck” it should not have graded that high. I too am confused by the assigned grade.
Happy hunting 😊
Chris, coming from you, that’s quite an endorsement. Do I understand you correctly, that you think it’s more than just fine at the assigned grade? And what would you grade it, were it not for the mint-made flaw?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
The coin is essentially perfect, surface-wise. I would grade in 68/68+ without the mint made flaw. The luster was incredible, especially for a 10-S which can but somewhat subdued. And for the record, Mark was not a finalizer, although he should have been!
While I'm certain that I'm right about the impairment, I've been schooled too often by @cnncoins to think I'm right enough. The in-hand, in this instance, is golden. If he's that nuts over the coin, it's Hallelujah time
I guess if JA told me it was acceptably nice, I'd likely agree with him too.
edited to add: I actually agree with @MrEureka and @cnncoins about it rating it a net-graded 67+RD, I objected because too many seasoned Lincoln collectors would object to the "issue" and lower the overall market value. Andy's point was well-made: it's the enormous current premium that's astounding. I wouldn't be at all surprised if none of the graders considered the value but just went "No S--t!!!!!".
CAC liked it also. But let's be objective. That means they agreed with the technical grade and will, as a matter of ordinary business, pay a stated price or make an offer on anything stickered. JA is an always there type of market maker. He may not be the higher-buyer on one MS65 Saint, but he'll take 20 pieces without dropping his price and, after he has recalibrated, put up a bid for 20 more.
JA has, on any number of occasions, expressed his belief that the registry concept has exaggerated the value of super-grade coins. Doesn't mean he's not a market "player". He'll buy a heavy duty pop-top at a price he's comfortable with. He'll take a million dollar group of six 1796 NS $2 1/2's and send a same-day wire. You may think this means he's a strong buyer of great Lincoln cents. He is not.
The bean is his grading opinion, not his pricing opinion. @cnncoins and I have both gotten massive auction rewards for coins we never imagined would bring that much. This 10-S might potentially bring $50K in a registry-bait auction. Pre-auction, the offers might go: JA might want to pay $7,500, I might want to pay $12,500 and @cnncoins $20K (since he's currently active and actually knows what going on). I don't, so I would pay up and immediately put it in auction.
So I was grading by pricing using out-of-date standards. A double-dumb-ass mistake. It's a source of relief to me that very few here are capable of such foolishness
.
Hmmm....I'm going to reflect on this.
To those who are bothered considerably by the flaw, would you consider the possibility that the coin’s graded accurately, but that you wouldn’t want an example with a flaw like that? Or in your opinion, even if otherwise perfect (due to that flaw) the coin shouldn’t grade that high? If the latter, what should the maximum grade be?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
It seems like the large number of these threads lately all boil down to people having their own standard and not applying the TPG's and CAC standards. To my mind, they are free to evaluate a coin however they like. However, if you are going to call into question the TPG's grade:
1. Examine the coin IN HAND
2. Use the actual posted guidelines of the TPG
I would also add that when PCGS and CAC agree, one might consider a little humility.
I think those are fair points. That said, personally, I struggle with how to evaluate such coins.
If the one being discussed here were unanimously considered to be otherwise perfect, how many points should it be penalized for the flaw? I don’t think there’s a clear standard that can be applied. Understandably, some knowledgeable numismatists will have an issue with a grade of 67 or higher. Others with 66 or higher. And still others, with any straight grade.
If you’re going to straight grade the coin, how many points could or should be deducted from 70, before it’s so many that the grade looks silly (low)?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
People are just not going to agree on how much any particular flaw affects the grade. IMO, it makes more sense to grade the coin without the flaw and describe the flaw. I guess it comes down to what the grade is being used for- to rank the coin in order to price it or to let buyers know what it looks like if they can't hold it in their hand.
@MFeld I'm thinking you found the guy, lol
It would be great to see this in hand, I especially as a Lincoln collector would be very eager to do so. However that is never going to happen, for me anyway, so most of us have no choice but to form an opinion biased only on photos.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
I don't think jmlanzaf is suggesting that people not form opinions. I think what he's saying is that when one who has not seen the coin in person forms an opinion contrary to one who is a professional coin grader and has seen the coin in person, rather than questioning the grading professional's ability, it might be worth considering that the grader has seen something in the coin that validates his opinion, which is not clearly seen in a photo.
Or maybe it's something else entirely.
Oh I totally agree with you I am not questioning anyone's ability, judging from photos is never going to be as good as an in hand view. However experts disagree all the time be it coins or the weather, differing opinions can bring to light different thought processes and should not be discouraged unless they are presented (or perceived) in a rude or confrontational way.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.