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So, I bought something on Ebay listed and sold as an "Unknown Coin" . . .
ZoidMeister
Posts: 3,144 ✭✭✭✭✭
. . . . and it finally arrived.
Your thoughts?
Z
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Busy chasing Carr's . . . . . woof!
Successful BST transactions with: Bullsitter, Downtown1974, P0CKETCHANGE, Twobitcollector, AKbeez, DCW, Illini420, ProofCollection, DCarr, Cazkaboom, RichieURich, LukeMarshall, carew4me, BustDMs, coinsarefun, PreTurb, felinfoal, jwitten, GoldenEgg, pruebas, lazybones, COCollector, CuKevin, MWallace, USMC_6115, NamVet69, zippcity, jshaulis, . . . . who'd I forget?
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My guess: modern copy of an ancient piece from what is now Israel.
Why did you start another thread about it?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1056598/can-anybody-identify-these-symbols-know-what-they-mean-or-translate#latest
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I did some additional research on the piece and wanted to talk about it's origins. The original thread was looking for assistance.
Busy chasing Carr's . . . . . woof!
Successful BST transactions with: Bullsitter, Downtown1974, P0CKETCHANGE, Twobitcollector, AKbeez, DCW, Illini420, ProofCollection, DCarr, Cazkaboom, RichieURich, LukeMarshall, carew4me, BustDMs, coinsarefun, PreTurb, felinfoal, jwitten, GoldenEgg, pruebas, lazybones, COCollector, CuKevin, MWallace, USMC_6115, NamVet69, zippcity, jshaulis, . . . . who'd I forget?
Interesting strategy to buy something neither you nor the seller know anything about. How do you price something like that?
I kinda knew what it was, but had never seen those symbols before.
At $12 "buy it now" I couldn't go too wrong.
Z
Busy chasing Carr's . . . . . woof!
Successful BST transactions with: Bullsitter, Downtown1974, P0CKETCHANGE, Twobitcollector, AKbeez, DCW, Illini420, ProofCollection, DCarr, Cazkaboom, RichieURich, LukeMarshall, carew4me, BustDMs, coinsarefun, PreTurb, felinfoal, jwitten, GoldenEgg, pruebas, lazybones, COCollector, CuKevin, MWallace, USMC_6115, NamVet69, zippcity, jshaulis, . . . . who'd I forget?
Here is the obverse.
Z
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Busy chasing Carr's . . . . . woof!
Successful BST transactions with: Bullsitter, Downtown1974, P0CKETCHANGE, Twobitcollector, AKbeez, DCW, Illini420, ProofCollection, DCarr, Cazkaboom, RichieURich, LukeMarshall, carew4me, BustDMs, coinsarefun, PreTurb, felinfoal, jwitten, GoldenEgg, pruebas, lazybones, COCollector, CuKevin, MWallace, USMC_6115, NamVet69, zippcity, jshaulis, . . . . who'd I forget?
Neat, it's masonic. Hiram, Tyrian, Widow’s Son, Sent to King Solomon.
Excellent. So when will you share with us the additional research on its origins and information you gathered on this?
My guess --- I'm thinking it goes much deeper.
Actually, it's not a coin. It's a medal or token of some sort.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
And it sure doesn’t appear to be a U.S. item.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Actually, American Masonic “shekel” tokens are very common.
Now that the reverse can be seen it appears to be a Masonic medal of some sort though I have no idea what the "Signet 57" stands for.
Thanks. Do you think that’s what it is?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Most likely, IMO. I don’t know Masonic tokens well enough to know if the specific locale of this chapter can be determined. Unfortunately the token does not include city/state, as many of these tokens do.
Thanks again.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
What 291fifth said. To add; I would say it's a tourist gift shop item from looking at the "reverse" as you call it. But judging from the "obverse" I have no idea what it is......Maybe a token made for a Jewish Men's club in 1957. Architect... Builders Association? That would be cool.
It's a member's York Rite Masonic shekel from Signet Chapter 57 located in Los Angeles, California. It appears to be a more modern strike (additional orders over time often use original dies, new dies or combinations of both). The type is listed in King (819) but in silver - Signet used both pennies and shekels. Based on the obverse in the (sigh) other thread, it does not carry the personal mark of the member. It is a chapter that turns up very often, especially the more modern strikes in non-precious metals.
Most chapters use copper "Mark" pennies, some use shekels and some use both (especially over time) as personal tokens for members. They are called mark pennies as each new member engraves his with his individual "mark", often initials, a depiction of his occupation, etc. In Masonic terms a penny = a shekel representing a days wages for a mason in ancient Egypt. Presentation sets of the individual chapter's coins are often struck in a variety of metals for special occasions or purposes.
See, just ask a Mason (or tokenpro).
Thank you for the lesson.
Sorry, been busy most of the day. Here is what I found.
What most folks don't know, is that many EARLY Masonic pennies contain references and symbolism from ancient Judaism. Many early colonial and Masonic pennies bear these initials - HTWSSTKS. This stands for "Hiram, Tyrian Widow's Son, Sendeth to King Soloman."
I am ignorant of the story behind the story on that and need to do much more research, but I do know that I discovered that MANY of the very early American Masonic pennies bear ancient Judaism symbolism, such as this one that shows the Arc of the Covenant. Both of these pieces also bear the HTWSSTKS as well.
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Another enigma I must solve is the reference to "One Penny" on most of these Masonic tokens. I know there is the phrase, "To Every Man, A Penny" that is associated with Masonic membership, but again, I am ignorant (for now) of the origins of this.
Many of the early framers of our Constitution and country were Masons - again, I need to do more research to edjamacate myself, but the most notable Americans who were Masons were George Washington and Benjamin Franklin.
The modern day Shriner's, those goof-balls who run around in clown outfits driving clown cars and raising money for children's hospitals? They're all Masons.
You see a lot of Masonic symbolism still in our currency today.
The original piece I posted in very notable in it's striking. The edges / rims are very pronounced, almost wire like. It almost looks machined rather than struck. The second piece above looks more modern in its strike.
I have no idea the age or origin of the first Masonic penny I posted. It might be early colonial or even British in origin. No idea about it's age either.
Here is another really nice example I have been able to acquire. There isn't any ancient biblical symbolism in this one, but a LOT of these vintage Masonic tokens are exceedingly well made. This is probably in tribute to their early builders / stonemason roots.
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The piece above almost looks like it were molded of terracotta, but is actually a copper struck piece by Childs die sinkers of Chicago.
Many of these early Masonic pennies, when they can be found, can be purchased at quite reasonable cost, given their age, quality and relative rarity. Now that I've started discussing them, it will probably drive their prices up . . . . LOL.
Anyway, I thought it was a cool piece and thought I would share.
Z
Busy chasing Carr's . . . . . woof!
Successful BST transactions with: Bullsitter, Downtown1974, P0CKETCHANGE, Twobitcollector, AKbeez, DCW, Illini420, ProofCollection, DCarr, Cazkaboom, RichieURich, LukeMarshall, carew4me, BustDMs, coinsarefun, PreTurb, felinfoal, jwitten, GoldenEgg, pruebas, lazybones, COCollector, CuKevin, MWallace, USMC_6115, NamVet69, zippcity, jshaulis, . . . . who'd I forget?
Doing some deep Google searches, what I am finding interesting is those initials, HTWSSTKS, are marked upon a shape commonly known as a "keystone."
It's shape makes it fit to use as a capstone of an arch, anchoring all the other stones in place, from the very top of the arch.
What's also interesting is this symbol, the "keystone", is also the recognized symbol for the state of Pennsylvania. I haven't read this just yet, but I am guessing William Penn, first Governor of Pennsylvania, was a huge Mason advocate . . . . . . .
Yet another "rabbit hole" I find myself in . . . . .
Z
Busy chasing Carr's . . . . . woof!
Successful BST transactions with: Bullsitter, Downtown1974, P0CKETCHANGE, Twobitcollector, AKbeez, DCW, Illini420, ProofCollection, DCarr, Cazkaboom, RichieURich, LukeMarshall, carew4me, BustDMs, coinsarefun, PreTurb, felinfoal, jwitten, GoldenEgg, pruebas, lazybones, COCollector, CuKevin, MWallace, USMC_6115, NamVet69, zippcity, jshaulis, . . . . who'd I forget?
Well... I have learned new information today.... Have not seen any masonic tokens, but will now recognize them if I find some in the antique shops or flea markets. Cheers, RickO
How big is it ? Maybe a cup holder.
Yesterday got real busy real fast. If there's anything predictable about Zoid's schedule, is that it's totally unpredictable. The closer a scheduled date or time gets, the more likely it is to change.
But I did take measurements of this piece yesterday.
It's 27.25mm in diameter and weighs in at around 13.1g.
Z
Busy chasing Carr's . . . . . woof!
Successful BST transactions with: Bullsitter, Downtown1974, P0CKETCHANGE, Twobitcollector, AKbeez, DCW, Illini420, ProofCollection, DCarr, Cazkaboom, RichieURich, LukeMarshall, carew4me, BustDMs, coinsarefun, PreTurb, felinfoal, jwitten, GoldenEgg, pruebas, lazybones, COCollector, CuKevin, MWallace, USMC_6115, NamVet69, zippcity, jshaulis, . . . . who'd I forget?
That's in the third thread. 😈
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Double post...ironically
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
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Some folks just have short attention spans.
Others don't spend their lives perusing each and every thread looking for something to offend their "sensibilities" or lack thereof . . . . . .
I just like posting cool stuff . . . . .
Z
Busy chasing Carr's . . . . . woof!
Successful BST transactions with: Bullsitter, Downtown1974, P0CKETCHANGE, Twobitcollector, AKbeez, DCW, Illini420, ProofCollection, DCarr, Cazkaboom, RichieURich, LukeMarshall, carew4me, BustDMs, coinsarefun, PreTurb, felinfoal, jwitten, GoldenEgg, pruebas, lazybones, COCollector, CuKevin, MWallace, USMC_6115, NamVet69, zippcity, jshaulis, . . . . who'd I forget?
Give them time. Overall they are a good crowd of guys here but when someone new comes along
and posts differently then usual or they way they like it posted, it tends to get under their skin.
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Roll with the punches and they will figure out you’re a good guy.
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CoinsAreFun Toned Silver Eagle Proof Album
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Gallery Mint Museum, Ron Landis& Joe Rust, The beginnings of the Golden Dollar
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More CoinsAreFun Pictorials NGC FOR SALE
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Oh Crud . . . . . I didn't know it showed . . . .
I'll have to work harder . . . . . .
Z
Busy chasing Carr's . . . . . woof!
Successful BST transactions with: Bullsitter, Downtown1974, P0CKETCHANGE, Twobitcollector, AKbeez, DCW, Illini420, ProofCollection, DCarr, Cazkaboom, RichieURich, LukeMarshall, carew4me, BustDMs, coinsarefun, PreTurb, felinfoal, jwitten, GoldenEgg, pruebas, lazybones, COCollector, CuKevin, MWallace, USMC_6115, NamVet69, zippcity, jshaulis, . . . . who'd I forget?
It's not about sensibilities. Multiple threads on the same coin clutter the top page which pushes down other threads that then get missed. It's simple politeness to not dominate the forum with duplicate threads.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
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while I agree that multiple threads do clutter the main page. I don't think this is the case. Many new and alt's post
5-10 new threads and this is simply not the case. I myself have started 2 different threads on the same token but for different reasons.
I think we all need to take a coffee/beer break and chill a bit.
The subject matter and problems are being blown out of proportion.......its only a few harmless threads showing excitement
over what a person got.
I remember being that way when I started out.
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CoinsAreFun Toned Silver Eagle Proof Album
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Gallery Mint Museum, Ron Landis& Joe Rust, The beginnings of the Golden Dollar
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More CoinsAreFun Pictorials NGC FOR SALE
Maybe, but I don't see anyone terribly upset about this.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.