@logger7 said:
I was refunded weeks ago, the harassment continued. I'll probably just talk to the local cop about it to add to the file; I was hoping this would die down as the resolution would have been easy. I understand people are stressed out during the pandemic especially teachers; as such I was dumb to allow such a situation to develop. "Live and let live" is a good principle; for our own serenity, resolving things quickly should be the aim.
Since we are not given details, I’m going to read between the lines and the OP can correct me if I am wrong:
You bought a coin sight seen likely with all sales final policy (especially as you are a dealer). The coin probably cost $75 at most and would likely be worth at least $30 as a cull. You realize you made a mistake and didn’t see any alleged problems. The dealer tells you all sales final, and you mail it back to force a return by using ANA mediation and a complaint to your state consumer affairs/protection to force their hand. The dealer is livid and ups the ante... All over a putative $45 loss?!!! If you missed it and are a dealer, there is a chance he did as well. By filing complaints you are challenging his integrity and trying to undo a deal you agreed to? He escalated, you escalated, and now you want to escalate more.
While the OP may have antagonized the dealer, I see no excuse for rude emails and the like. Even if the OP is a total A hole, the dealer is not behaving professionally. Period.
@jmlanzaf said:
While the OP may have antagonized the dealer, I see no excuse for rude emails and the like. Even if the OP is a total A hole, the dealer is not behaving professionally. Period.
Government regulatory complaints, the police, and litigation are not proper venues for expressing frustration over discourteous behavior. When some writes a long post making vague allegations without concrete evidence that doesn’t make sense and plays the victim card, my intuition tells me the original post is missing a lot of pertinent stuff. People are taking sides against the dealer when we truly have no idea what happened. When pressed for detail, the OP deflects.
@jmlanzaf said:
While the OP may have antagonized the dealer, I see no excuse for rude emails and the like. Even if the OP is a total A hole, the dealer is not behaving professionally. Period.
Government regulatory complaints, the police, and litigation are not proper venues for expressing frustration over discourteous behavior. When some writes a long post making vague allegations without concrete evidence that doesn’t make sense and plays the victim card, my intuition tells me the original post is missing a lot of pertinent stuff. People are taking sides against the dealer when we truly have no idea what happened. When pressed for detail, the OP deflects.
I'm not really taking sides. They might both be wrong. But there is simply no excuse for harassing emails. You either ignore it or turn it over to your attorney. To send nasty emails is childish. Period.
I can't really judge the OP's behavior because I don't know the specifics. He is, of course, trying to paint himself as blameless.
I didn't go outside the normal resolution venues until the dealer became harassing, abusive and impossible to deal with. I've never dealt with such harassment.
This is a high school teacher, like a Jekyyl and Hyde personality.
This was a small matter that he agreed with that the coin was "altered surfaces". He had my address for the refund, it was he that turned a mole hill into a mountain.
Out of state dealers who come to weekend coin shows should be playing by all the laws. This guy largely does cash transactions without invoices.
I've always tried to do the right thing in business, had three returns of certified coins last month, no big deal.
@logger7 said:
I didn't go outside the normal resolution venues until the dealer became harassing, abusive and impossible to deal with. I've never dealt with such harassment.
This is a high school teacher, like a Jekyyl and Hyde personality.
This was a small matter that he agreed with that the coin was "altered surfaces". He had my address for the refund, it was he that turned a mole hill into a mountain.
Out of state dealers who come to weekend coin shows should be playing by all the laws. This guy largely does cash transactions without invoices.
I've always tried to do the right thing in business, had three returns of certified coins last month, no big deal.
I agree about dealers skirting rules. It's my pet peeve, especially when they neglect to charge the appropriate sales tax.
That said, you still keep saying, "he had my address for the refund..." That is a little different than he agreeing to the refund in advance. In fact, your OP implies that you sent it back without having prior agreement with him to accept the return. I'm not sure whether you are intentionally or accidentally obfuscating. But it is confusing to your gentle readers...
@logger7 said:
This is a painful experience; I did a $7K plus transaction with a NY dealer around a year ago. I saw him at a coin show some months ago and bought several Morgan dollars. One I identified after the I examined it later in the day as an altered surfaces coin on the obverse. The matter at stake was not huge, less than $100. I emailed him, got no response. I sent the coin back and got an email late in the week from him acknowledging receipt of it more or less admitting the problem. Part of my shipping it back to him was that he would be alert to "altered surfaces" issues. He had my address for the refund, but what followed was an almost daily barrage of insults and queries on the issue, he really didn't want to seem to put the issue behind but opened up hostile invective which caused me to block his email, etc.. Because the dealer's increasingly hostile and intimidating communication before I blocked him was verging on harassment, I took the issue up with the state consumer affairs department. I wanted to get this dealer's abusive and hostile rhetoric on record. Since then he bought a coin on ebay and left a deranged negative which ebay quickly deleted as well as a gmail review on an account which I don't really used because I buy only from dealers which was quickly deleted. I had determined early on not to respond to his insults and attempt to provoke me. A couple weeks ago I contacted the local police said that it didn't really rise to "harassment" because I hadn't told him to stop contacting me which I later did. How would you deal with this dealer, I'm thinking of talking to a lawyer even if it costs a pretty penny, it might be worth the peace of mind.
It's just $100 and not worth much of anyone's time. I'd be interested in reading what you think is 'intimidating' and worth 'talking to a lawyer' about? There's truly not much you could put into an email that would/could intimidate me to the point of wanting to take it to the 'next level'. Not that I don't necessarily believe you, but it's hard to just take one person's word for something like this without understanding both sides. Why not post the back/forth communication? If this person has truly done what you say, why not name them?
The facts of the case are clear; the show dealer was made aware of the problem via email within hours of the transaction, did not respond for days, I shipped it back with an explanatory note about which I got an email in the middle of the night when he got it back. He had the mailing address and the amount but kept sending increasingly hostile and intimidating emails mixed with requests for my address. He had that from the beginning. The objective in transactions should be not making a lot of money but keeping the hobby in mind first. All local, state and other laws should be followed; with coin shows the show manager should be seeing to it that his dealers are following all applicable laws.
On returns I like what the late Jim Fehr of Ellesmere used to say, "...I never keep a coin I didn't like". No one should be forced to live with coins they dislike. The idea that anyone buying and selling coins should have zero return abilities defies the reality of the marketplace. I have been in the laboring fields my whole life. I have bought and sold coins trying to be transparent and fair in my dealings. Returns are a part of every business. I can maybe see if precious metals were bought, the prices drop, and deductions would be made as indicated as APMEX does. A wedding ring also has a short shelf life, returned the jeweler can be expected to offer wholesale.
My objective on the thread was advice on how to stop his campaign of intimidation. I tried to let what I thought was a settled matter go, I keep getting "anonymous" emails in the middle of the night. "If you make one more nasty move, (your employer) is next to hear about you."
This is stupid prattle. The state and other authorities rarely regulate coin shows. They have much bigger fish to deal with.
I have nothing to hide, never have. I will not be bullied, cowed, intimidated, harassed or black mailed. It isn't that hard to do the right thing and end petty disagreements which was my intent from the beginning.
I have done a dozen or so returns in the last few years on coins. In retrospect I would have kept it if I realized he would take it the wrong way. I thought it was more an educational thing, here is an altered surfaces coin you missed you should take a close look at it. During the pandemic I have relied too much on emails vs. phone calls. Not good.
Many of the posts on these forums are designed to be educational. I like the PNG ethics guidelines and maybe I am too much of a rule fanatic. Debate is healthy usually. I'm truly sorry issues like this blow up. I believe many of the show dealers are good, talented and forthright people that we tend to interact with too infrequently.
Disagree. So far I've only heard one side, and as far as I can tell, we can't verify a single "fact" we've been given.
about which I got an email in the middle of the night
How is the timing of an email relevant?
The objective in transactions should be not making a lot of money but keeping the hobby in mind first.
Hobby for some, business for others. You can't expect others to share your point of view on this one.
No one should be forced to live with coins they dislike.
People should examine what they are buying before they buy it.
Returns are a part of every business.
Disagree. I bought a used lawnmower over the weekend. If it dies, I can't take it back. I can think of a million other examples, including sight-seen coins bought and sold at shows.
My objective on the thread was advice on how to stop his campaign of intimidation.
Maybe try ignoring it? It's a matter of $100, and you've already received a refund.
I thought it was more an educational thing, here is an altered surfaces coin you missed you should take a close look at it.
I can't see many dealers being particularly fond of such interactions.
Disagree. So far I've only heard one side, and as far as I can tell, we can't verify a single "fact" we've been given.
about which I got an email in the middle of the night
How is the timing of an email relevant?
The objective in transactions should be not making a lot of money but keeping the hobby in mind first.
Hobby for some, business for others. You can't expect others to share your point of view on this one.
No one should be forced to live with coins they dislike.
People should examine what they are buying before they buy it.
Returns are a part of every business.
Disagree. I bought a used lawnmower over the weekend. If it dies, I can't take it back. I can think of a million other examples, including sight-seen coins bought and sold at shows.
My objective on the thread was advice on how to stop his campaign of intimidation.
Maybe try ignoring it? It's a matter of $100, and you've already received a refund.
I thought it was more an educational thing, here is an altered surfaces coin you missed you should take a close look at it.
I can't see many dealers being particularly fond of such interactions.
There, now I feel better.
I agree with a lot of this.
Emails are easy to delete and easy to block.
Not everything comes with a right of return. A raw coin which could easily be switched out or doctored might well come under that category.
I'm not sure I would appreciate getting an unapproved return for "my education", especially from someone who is also a dealer and also missed the alleged problem.
Of course, for $100, I would accept the return and be done with it. So I still see no excuse for the childish behavior of the other dealer.
On returns, all the major retailers, Amazon, Ebay, Walmart, Home Depot, Lowes, etc. accept returns from all sources, they make no artificial distinction on who is returning them especially when they are returned in original condition.
@logger7 said:
On returns, all the major retailers, Amazon, Ebay, Walmart, Home Depot, Lowes, etc. accept returns from all sources, they make no artificial distinction on who is returning them especially when they are returned in original condition.
I don't think this is a valid comparison. The companies you mentioned sell new in package retail items, not collectibles.
@logger7 said:
The facts of the case are clear; the show dealer was made aware of the problem via email within hours of the transaction, did not respond for days, I shipped it back with an explanatory note about which I got an email in the middle of the night when he got it back.
Somehow I suspect the perceived tone of your "explanatory note" is somewhat different than what you intended. I bet that's when the interaction started to degenerate.
Numismatist Ordinaire See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
@logger7 said:
On returns, all the major retailers, Amazon, Ebay, Walmart, Home Depot, Lowes, etc. accept returns from all sources, they make no artificial distinction on who is returning them especially when they are returned in original condition.
I don't think this is a valid comparison. The companies you mentioned sell new in package retail items, not collectibles.
There are no special categories in trade like this as far as I know; if anyone knows better please share. Why would it make a difference as to the use intent of the object purchased? I can understand reasonable restocking charges which I don't even see such online retailers invoke due to the competition not doing that.
I didn't say the categories were special, I said they were different. Surely, you recognize that all coins of a particular date and denomination are not alike. Right?
Comments
There are no winners. Lol
What we have here is a failure to communicate amicably
"Inspiration exists, but it has to find you working" Pablo Picasso
Did the refund predate the regulatory complaint?
As long as he issued a return and you were made whole; I'd definitely move on.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
Since we are not given details, I’m going to read between the lines and the OP can correct me if I am wrong:
You bought a coin sight seen likely with all sales final policy (especially as you are a dealer). The coin probably cost $75 at most and would likely be worth at least $30 as a cull. You realize you made a mistake and didn’t see any alleged problems. The dealer tells you all sales final, and you mail it back to force a return by using ANA mediation and a complaint to your state consumer affairs/protection to force their hand. The dealer is livid and ups the ante... All over a putative $45 loss?!!! If you missed it and are a dealer, there is a chance he did as well. By filing complaints you are challenging his integrity and trying to undo a deal you agreed to? He escalated, you escalated, and now you want to escalate more.
How am I doing?
While the OP may have antagonized the dealer, I see no excuse for rude emails and the like. Even if the OP is a total A hole, the dealer is not behaving professionally. Period.
.
Government regulatory complaints, the police, and litigation are not proper venues for expressing frustration over discourteous behavior. When some writes a long post making vague allegations without concrete evidence that doesn’t make sense and plays the victim card, my intuition tells me the original post is missing a lot of pertinent stuff. People are taking sides against the dealer when we truly have no idea what happened. When pressed for detail, the OP deflects.
Like y’all, I can keep this up:
But unlike the "y'all" you're addressing who are adding to the discussion, all you're doing is bumping the thread.
Why?
I'm not really taking sides. They might both be wrong. But there is simply no excuse for harassing emails. You either ignore it or turn it over to your attorney. To send nasty emails is childish. Period.
I can't really judge the OP's behavior because I don't know the specifics. He is, of course, trying to paint himself as blameless.
I didn't go outside the normal resolution venues until the dealer became harassing, abusive and impossible to deal with. I've never dealt with such harassment.
This is a high school teacher, like a Jekyyl and Hyde personality.
This was a small matter that he agreed with that the coin was "altered surfaces". He had my address for the refund, it was he that turned a mole hill into a mountain.
Out of state dealers who come to weekend coin shows should be playing by all the laws. This guy largely does cash transactions without invoices.
I've always tried to do the right thing in business, had three returns of certified coins last month, no big deal.
I agree about dealers skirting rules. It's my pet peeve, especially when they neglect to charge the appropriate sales tax.
That said, you still keep saying, "he had my address for the refund..." That is a little different than he agreeing to the refund in advance. In fact, your OP implies that you sent it back without having prior agreement with him to accept the return. I'm not sure whether you are intentionally or accidentally obfuscating. But it is confusing to your gentle readers...
It's just $100 and not worth much of anyone's time. I'd be interested in reading what you think is 'intimidating' and worth 'talking to a lawyer' about? There's truly not much you could put into an email that would/could intimidate me to the point of wanting to take it to the 'next level'. Not that I don't necessarily believe you, but it's hard to just take one person's word for something like this without understanding both sides. Why not post the back/forth communication? If this person has truly done what you say, why not name them?
Considering the forum rules, what's been posted so far would make that a bad idea.
The facts of the case are clear; the show dealer was made aware of the problem via email within hours of the transaction, did not respond for days, I shipped it back with an explanatory note about which I got an email in the middle of the night when he got it back. He had the mailing address and the amount but kept sending increasingly hostile and intimidating emails mixed with requests for my address. He had that from the beginning. The objective in transactions should be not making a lot of money but keeping the hobby in mind first. All local, state and other laws should be followed; with coin shows the show manager should be seeing to it that his dealers are following all applicable laws.
On returns I like what the late Jim Fehr of Ellesmere used to say, "...I never keep a coin I didn't like". No one should be forced to live with coins they dislike. The idea that anyone buying and selling coins should have zero return abilities defies the reality of the marketplace. I have been in the laboring fields my whole life. I have bought and sold coins trying to be transparent and fair in my dealings. Returns are a part of every business. I can maybe see if precious metals were bought, the prices drop, and deductions would be made as indicated as APMEX does. A wedding ring also has a short shelf life, returned the jeweler can be expected to offer wholesale.
My objective on the thread was advice on how to stop his campaign of intimidation. I tried to let what I thought was a settled matter go, I keep getting "anonymous" emails in the middle of the night. "If you make one more nasty move, (your employer) is next to hear about you."
This is stupid prattle. The state and other authorities rarely regulate coin shows. They have much bigger fish to deal with.
I have nothing to hide, never have. I will not be bullied, cowed, intimidated, harassed or black mailed. It isn't that hard to do the right thing and end petty disagreements which was my intent from the beginning.
I have done a dozen or so returns in the last few years on coins. In retrospect I would have kept it if I realized he would take it the wrong way. I thought it was more an educational thing, here is an altered surfaces coin you missed you should take a close look at it. During the pandemic I have relied too much on emails vs. phone calls. Not good.
Many of the posts on these forums are designed to be educational. I like the PNG ethics guidelines and maybe I am too much of a rule fanatic. Debate is healthy usually. I'm truly sorry issues like this blow up. I believe many of the show dealers are good, talented and forthright people that we tend to interact with too infrequently.
Only Zuul.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
Disagree. So far I've only heard one side, and as far as I can tell, we can't verify a single "fact" we've been given.
How is the timing of an email relevant?
Hobby for some, business for others. You can't expect others to share your point of view on this one.
People should examine what they are buying before they buy it.
Disagree. I bought a used lawnmower over the weekend. If it dies, I can't take it back. I can think of a million other examples, including sight-seen coins bought and sold at shows.
Maybe try ignoring it? It's a matter of $100, and you've already received a refund.
I can't see many dealers being particularly fond of such interactions.
There, now I feel better.
I agree with a lot of this.
Emails are easy to delete and easy to block.
Not everything comes with a right of return. A raw coin which could easily be switched out or doctored might well come under that category.
I'm not sure I would appreciate getting an unapproved return for "my education", especially from someone who is also a dealer and also missed the alleged problem.
Of course, for $100, I would accept the return and be done with it. So I still see no excuse for the childish behavior of the other dealer.
The "Law of Holes" would seem to apply here.
On returns, all the major retailers, Amazon, Ebay, Walmart, Home Depot, Lowes, etc. accept returns from all sources, they make no artificial distinction on who is returning them especially when they are returned in original condition.
Did you drop an "A"?
I don't think this is a valid comparison. The companies you mentioned sell new in package retail items, not collectibles.
Somehow I suspect the perceived tone of your "explanatory note" is somewhat different than what you intended. I bet that's when the interaction started to degenerate.
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
There are no special categories in trade like this as far as I know; if anyone knows better please share. Why would it make a difference as to the use intent of the object purchased? I can understand reasonable restocking charges which I don't even see such online retailers invoke due to the competition not doing that.
I didn't say the categories were special, I said they were different. Surely, you recognize that all coins of a particular date and denomination are not alike. Right?