Problem with dealer
logger7
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This is a painful experience; I did a $7K plus transaction with a NY dealer around a year ago. I saw him at a coin show some months ago and bought several Morgan dollars. One I identified after the I examined it later in the day as an altered surfaces coin on the obverse. The matter at stake was not huge, less than $100. I emailed him, got no response. I sent the coin back and got an email late in the week from him acknowledging receipt of it more or less admitting the problem. Part of my shipping it back to him was that he would be alert to "altered surfaces" issues. He had my address for the refund, but what followed was an almost daily barrage of insults and queries on the issue, he really didn't want to seem to put the issue behind but opened up hostile invective which caused me to block his email, etc.. Because the dealer's increasingly hostile and intimidating communication before I blocked him was verging on harassment, I took the issue up with the state consumer affairs department. I wanted to get this dealer's abusive and hostile rhetoric on record. Since then he bought a coin on ebay and left a deranged negative which ebay quickly deleted as well as a gmail review on an account which I don't really used because I buy only from dealers which was quickly deleted. I had determined early on not to respond to his insults and attempt to provoke me. A couple weeks ago I contacted the local police said that it didn't really rise to "harassment" because I hadn't told him to stop contacting me which I later did. How would you deal with this dealer, I'm thinking of talking to a lawyer even if it costs a pretty penny, it might be worth the peace of mind.
Comments
Continue to ignore him.
You have done about all you can do at this point.
Mistakes happen, but hard to believe he is this irate over $100 after doing $7k+ in business.
Did you leave negative feedback online or with other dealers? Were you happy with the other purchases?
I think even composing the post was more time than it was worth. As we are learning every day, there are some bat crazy people in the world.
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So as I read this, you got into a pissing contest over a $100 coin (part of a larger $7,000 transaction) on a coin that you felt was a problem coin and you were offered a refund. Somehow we get into regulatory complaints over insults, he ups the ante with a retaliatory eBay neg, and now you want to bring lawyers into this? What? Why?! Mere insults are not usually actionable. You haven’t provided a lot of concrete examples of harassment either. The eBay transaction description was vague. What are you hoping to accomplish?
1) Did you get your money? If yes, you were made whole in the original transaction and things should have de-escalated there.
2) Assuming the answer to #1 is yes, what basis is there for a regulatory complaint?
3) People can be petty. Being disagreeable or insulting isn’t usually a standalone tort or every courthouse in the country would have a several year back log for hearings on trivial matters.
4) There is no problem that lawyers and litigation can’t make worse. There is always a risk with litigation. If you come off as petty it can blow up in your face quickly.
5) Let it go and move on.
Oh... and my neighbors spent $25k in a suit over $3k counter tops in which they settled.
Walk away.
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@logger7 it is generally true that you should notify by CMRRR someone to stop contacting you before one may be charged with harassment by communication. As a victim, your attorney is the District Attorney where you live, the Affiant is the police. Yeah, if there's mental health issues, just getting one to stop might be all the satisfaction you'll get. Good luck. Peace Roy
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My guess is that a regulatory complaint over a $100 coin filed by the OP may he have been the cause of a lot of it. Details are sparse. It sounds like the OP was granted a return in which case the filing of a regulatory complaint over a single disagreement sounds incredibly petty and frivolous. I also don’t understand the police for harassment unless he is stalking the OP outside of his home or threatening the OP with physical violence. That too strikes me as an unnecessary provocation and escalation. There have been a lot of accusations without a lot of supporting facts/details to back up those claims.
The harassment was pretty obvious to me; it could have probably been resolved with a phone call, I didn't see any confusion on a rapid resolution to the issue, but he kept dragging it on trying to get me banned from shows. I ignored him though believing that his flagrant disregard to the law even as a school teacher was such that it needed to be reported to authorities. Though blocked I keep getting "anonymous" emails and texts which I don't open. Two recent emails from "anonymous": The world shall know all about your little boys. You can't hide your sickness any longer." Another one titled "ethics": "Prepare to lose privileges at all the major grading services. They have ethics boards."
As I understand it, you bought the coin in person at a coin show. A few questions:
Was it slabbed?
What did you pay for the coin and how much less than the purchase price do you think it's worth?
How long after the purchase date did it take you to request a refund?
Are you a dealer, a collector, or somewhere in between?
And in case anyone is wondering, no, I was not the seller!
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Does he (or you) belong to ANA or other groups that mediate dealer issues?
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People don’t usually become unhinged over a $100 transaction (especially with a repeat customer). There is a lot missing from this story.
Three questions that should be dispositive:
1) Did you get your refund?
2) Has he stopped contacting you?
3) What would be the legal basis and goal in instituting litigation at this point? What would be the remedy or is the point to punish the dealer?
This was a raw common date Morgan dollar priced at MS65. The ANA now charges $100 or so for mediation issues. Usually any issue, I go quickly to the dealer and if rebuffed go over a clear problem go over their head. In retrospect it isn't worth the squabble as I am for the hobby first and education, not about money.
He was given my information for refunding from the start and agreed; but kept mixing intimidation, insult, hostility etc. with requests for yet more information on where to refund me which he had on the check, etc.. and which I had given him.
You will never win!
Don't burn bridges you might need one day.
I would worry more about what he says to other dealers.
After all, it was cleaned and not counterfeit.
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Just to play devils advocate here...
Some may disagree, but if you buy a coin in person at a show it’s usually considered to be a done deal. You had a chance to inspect it but neglected to do so and didn’t notice a problem until later.
You might very well be right about the harassment stuff, but, as usual, we only have one half of the story. The dealer might be an absolute loon. I know a few of those...... but it could also just be a misunderstanding that escalated.
Finally, if you’re sometimes doing deals worth $7k, maybe leave yourself enough financial and emotional margin to let a few $100 headaches go. There will undoubtedly be others. It’s supposed to be a fun hobby.
I prefer settling things in person.
Meet him somewhere there are video cameras & witnesses.
A coin show would be perfect for a discussion.
My Saint Set
The dealer now has his coin and his money. Further discussion seems pointless.
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A wise general surgeon, friend, and mentor once told me, “Never fight a major battle over a minor issue.”
It was good advice and probably applies here.
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Martin
Many times, when a person is disagreeable, discussion is no longer possible, and can even lead to bigger issues.
I'm OK with that
My Saint Set
I'm really rather surprised at the responses here. While it's"only $100", isn't that besides the point?
The dealer is clearly wrong.
I feel I’m missing context on how this all escalated from a return to harassment.
Latin American Collection
I'd spend the $100 to drag his ass in there and let him melt down on the mediators.
It sounds like he's trying to paint you as some sex offender and is generating screenshots for his cause. Lawyer. Gun. In whatever order but def both. People like this can become really unglued. This is far past ok. You need to gather communications and store them in physical copy and two digital places (one is your lawyer). Build a case of harassment. This guy has probably been waiting to blow his top for some time and this just gave him a reason to.
Jesus dude good luck be safe.
Interesting conclusion from one who always states we need both sides of the story before arriving at one.
As usual, an incorrect assertion. I maintain that we should not be "convicting" named dealers or buyers based on half the story. We can discuss hypotheticals, which is all a one-sided narrative represents.
As usual, my attempt at concision is met with misinterpretation. So, if you'd like the longer version, I will amend my comments as follows:
I'm really rather surprised at the responses here. While I know it is only $100 and the advice to let it go makes sense, I'm surprised that anyone would suggest that the OP must have done something wrong based on the information presented here.
The dealer is clearly wrong. You could make the case that the OP is, at this point, over-reacting a bit himself. I don't think you can really fault the OP for any of his actions up to and including the return which some posters appear to be doing. Although, as a general rule, I would not return something without authorization.
At best, the dealer is acting unprofessionally.
Not to mention the dealer is portrayed as being a bit unhinged. I would not want to pursue a discussion even in a public place.
It’s unclear to me whether the OP did or didn’t receive a refund. His post on that subject was:
“He was given my information for refunding from the start and agreed; but kept mixing intimidation, insult, hostility etc. with requests for yet more information on where to refund me which he had on the check, etc.. and which I had given him.”
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I was refunded weeks ago, the harassment continued. I'll probably just talk to the local cop about it to add to the file; I was hoping this would die down as the resolution would have been easy. I understand people are stressed out during the pandemic especially teachers; as such I was dumb to allow such a situation to develop. "Live and let live" is a good principle; for our own serenity, resolving things quickly should be the aim.
Next time you see him at a show, kick his ass!!!!
Thank you for clarifying the refund. I was unsure myself.
If it continues, still believe reporting him to ANA or any other affiliated dealer groups is the best route.
You would no longer be alone. It would carry more weight and once exposed he will be less likely to continue.
Use the lawyer to send the letter as a threat and then proceed accordingly.
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Suggest that you just ghost this dealer. Don't respond to any of his e-mails. He'll get tired after awhile and move on.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
It sounds to me like a very derogatory comment(or even a threat to slay him in public) was made to the dealer that flipped his switch. As said above, most people consider an in hand transaction a done deal. Did you have to verbally twist his arm to get him to accept a return?
I'm sorry, from what I'm reading none of this makes sense to me.
Edit to add, I rarely will not accept a return after the fact. I had 2 instances where a coin was brought back to me later requesting a return. Perhaps this is what the dealer thought happened to him.
1 was a VF Bust dime the guy had dipped...I just accepted that one because it wasn't worth the hassle.
The other was a different story. A guy brings back a coin a year a year later and asks if I would buy it back. I told him I didn't want to spend that much right now. He then shows paperwork from a 3rd party grading service stating it was counterfeit. The guy had soaked a 1796 quarter with choice, original smooth surfaces in dip so long it made it porous. It was cheap for a 1796 quarter because it had an old bend that had been straitened and then continued to circulate.
The 1st problem was it was 100% a trade deal in which he traded me a bunch of coins. BTW this took place at a coin show. The 1st thing I said when handed the coin to me was you dipped the sh*t out of it which he denied. I said, regardless, if the coin is counterfeit I will make it right. I said the 1st thing that is going to happen is we are going to have the coin evaluated by a real professional. So to keep the peace, I gave him back the coins I still had which I had taken in trade as a deposit. This was about 1/2 the deal. Well he kept on an on to the point where he was getting aggressive wanting 100% compensation. At that point I told him I am an ANA dealer and we would let them handle this dispute(I wasn't about to give him 100% because I was screwed if the coin was genuine as I could have sold it back to the dealer I bought it from if it was counterfeit). The guy was screaming and looking like he was going to jump across my table and show security ejected him from the show. After that almost everyone in the room came up and complimented me on the way I handled it. I'm sure it was quite entertaining for everyone in the room as we had quite the audience.
Then the calls and emails started. I explained to him I had sent the coin off to be authenticated and when I got the results we would go from there. On a luckier note, I had consigned the coin to a friend to try and sell on ebay. He still had the pictures. There was the proof I needed to prove he had destroyed the coin! Even he could not deny it wasn't the same coin.
The coin came back genuine. I told him he could either send the coins back I had given him and I would send his quarter back or I was done and I would not give him a nickel more. Never heard from him again.
Now here is the funny part. I wanted no part of the coin so I blew it out to another dealer I know. the coin had actually started to retone. Well, it was the rarer variety of the 1796 quarter. By the time it made it to a Heritage auction it had retoned to an acceptable color. That coin sold for more than double what I sold it for even after be so severely molested!
You consider this a " painful experience"? Not to sound like an A hole but you need to move on. I'm not made of $ but my time would be more valuable than the hours you have into beating this dead horse.
Just ignore / block.
So to recap. This is a $100 item. What was his return policy? Generally seller sight seen transactions are final / online mail order 14 days. You have already got rid of the item? Move on. We have all made bad buys. Be glad it was just $100.
I discussed some time ago with a paralegal friend sight seen return policy at shows. She advised that I should have a sign at the table “sight seen transactions final” if that was my sight seen return policy.
To me that’s way out there he is harassing somebody after refunding a $100 item. I mean returns are par for the course in the coin business.
It was a sight-seen purchase at a show.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
$100? Either there is more to the story or this person is nuts. In either case, walk away/ignore.........
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Just walk away. Don't throw good money away by trying to prove that he wronged you.
Up until I learned that you had been refunded the money my response was going to be that $100 is not worth getting upset over simple. After I learned that you had been refunded I've got to say -and I mean this in the spirit of forgiveness and kindness and just plain positive living, -just cool your jets and let it go and live a peaceful life.
Happy Easter by the way
It's generally considered to be out of bounds to post PMs here, but I expect that if the OP posted those emails without identifying said dealer that that would help to assess that dealer's conduct. That dealer has spoken thru his emails.
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Reminds me of a certain dealer who used to be active in Central Iowa.
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Sounds like the other party doesn't want to "move on".
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Wow ... sounds like the financial downside to either party would have only around $25 to $50, since I bet the coin still had some inherent value. Hope this is resolved to everyone's satisfaction, but the drama thus far doesn't speak to a pleasant conclusion. Best of luck to you.
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
just move on and let it go
what is done is done it's the past
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You bought the coin "sight seen" and you seem to be a dealer yourself so just eating it and reselling would of been the best option. You could of also offered a restocking fee to keep things civil. I obviously do not condone what you say has happened by the other dealer.
Thanks for the inputs. I'm sorry for a disturbing thread on this holiday weekend. As this forum is about coins, if the moderators want to delete it that would be fine. My own conviction is that returns on problem coins in the same condition as received serves a useful business purpose. Returns are pervasive in all reasonable sales. On ebay they are required as well in a limited fashion with some auctions. This was my only return with this dealer with other transactions over numerous years and he went nuts with baseless accusations and harassment.
We're in a bull market. A certain percent of "dealers" are going to act like schmucks. Move on and don't do any business with him anymore.
Walk away, and don't look back.
Returns aren't remotely “pervasive” in in-person, sight seen transactions, such as yours. Obviously, that doesn’t excuse the behavior of the seller, if his words and actions (as well as yours) have been relayed accurately.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
It has always been my understanding that in person purchases such as described in the op are done deals, no returns accepted.
Agreed.
My sympathies to the other party.