1858 J-211 Re punch Date or something else?

retirednow · March 11, 2021 3:39PM

I like to collect your thoughts on the "8" on this pattern Indian cent. Not sure it would be a repunch date being a pattern. I did scan most of the Heritage auction archives looking at their photos of other 1858 Pattern (J-208, 211, 212, 213) but I did not come across any other obverses that show the same characteristics. I would appreciate anyone in the community as to their thoughts?

davewesen · March 11, 2021 3:55PM

I think it might be dark toning like around the N of UNITED. What is causing the odd lighter colors around the date, has it been lacquered?

LanceNewmanOCC · March 11, 2021 4:55PM

hmm. just a guess. since that inside loop part is high on the die, perhaps a small strike-through.

nice images but probably need more magnification to be 100%. if you can upload an unedited original image of the obv and/or date, i can blow it up pretty big but need and high-res image to start with to prohibit pixelation.

yosclimber · March 11, 2021 6:26PM

J-211 was struck with 2 different obverse dies

Low date J211/P255 with about a half dozen known.

Centered date J211/P262 which is the more common variety.

https://uspatterns.stores.yahoo.net/j211p255.html
Yours is the Centered date P262.

If it is a RPD, it should be on all the P262 coins.

You can check more than just Heritage if you want a more complete search:
https://www.pcgs.com/auctionprices/details/1858-j-211-pr-1c/11893
https://www.pcgs.com/auctionprices/details/1858-j-211-ms-1c/11892
Also, you can do a direct search at Stacks Bowers which will yield a few more (older) results than the above links.

CaptHenway · March 11, 2021 7:37PM

The coin appears to be lacquered. The artifact looks to be something stuck in the lacquer.

retirednow · March 13, 2021 7:38AM

@LanceNewmanOCC said:
hmm. just a guess. since that inside loop part is high on the die, perhaps a small strike-through.

nice images but probably need more magnification to be 100%. if you can upload an unedited original image of the obv and/or date, i can blow it up pretty big but need and high-res image to start with to prohibit pixelation.

Thank you all for comments and thoughts

I attached the NGC High Resolution pic. I had the coin reholder several years ago to replace an older scratched holder and I elected to try a sampled a high resolution photo (Paid extra for it of course) from NGC. I find that this photo and with many of my PCGS photos the details are great but the photo does not represent the coins appearance "IN HAND" . I can understand the comments of the lacquered but using my 18x loop the subject die effect is real and not any residue. I only recall seeing one lacquer silver coin in the past at a show so I may not be as observant to the characteristics. The coloration and effect is for sure exaggerated on the photo but it could be from an old lacquering wear.
PS: it was graded NGC PF 62 which I think is fair.

LanceNewmanOCC · March 13, 2021 10:59AM

@retirednow said:

really nice quality image even if not accurate.

thanks for that image. i did enlarge much bigger than the other one i uploaded but the resolution is about the same. it will probably take a knowledgeable person in-hand adn/or a zoom image of that area and we still may not figure it out then.

retirednow · March 13, 2021 12:43PM

@yosclimber said:
J-211 was struck with 2 different obverse dies

Low date J211/P255 with about a half dozen known.

Centered date J211/P262 which is the more common variety.

https://uspatterns.stores.yahoo.net/j211p255.html
Yours is the Centered date P262.

If it is a RPD, it should be on all the P262 coins.

You can check more than just Heritage if you want a more complete search:
https://www.pcgs.com/auctionprices/details/1858-j-211-pr-1c/11893
https://www.pcgs.com/auctionprices/details/1858-j-211-ms-1c/11892
Also, you can do a direct search at Stacks Bowers which will yield a few more (older) results than the above links.

Thanks for the comments and the P262 identification & site suggestions ... USPATTERNS,com is my first on line stop on all information about patterns. I did try a few other sites to look at photos but I usually default to Heritage for the mere quantity and their high resolution images. I did go back and check several of Stacks sales as well ... in any case it does not appear to be a re-punched without some other coin popping up.

LanceNewmanOCC · March 13, 2021 4:05PM

@retirednow said:

Thanks for the comments and the P262 identification & site suggestions ... USPATTERNS,com is my first on line stop on all information about patterns. I did try a few other sites to look at photos but I usually default to Heritage for the mere quantity and their high resolution images. I did go back and check several of Stacks sales as well ... in any case it does not appear to be a re-punched without some other coin popping up.

.
set registry? a little more work but very organized. - i've had a good success rate tracking things through there. probably 75-80% of what i'm looking for tends to be there. i admit though, it is hit and miss.

coinfacts doesn't have a comprehensive listing with images???

yosclimber · March 13, 2021 5:51PM

@LanceNewmanOCC said:

@retirednow said:

Thanks for the comments and the P262 identification & site suggestions ... USPATTERNS,com is my first on line stop on all information about patterns. I did try a few other sites to look at photos but I usually default to Heritage for the mere quantity and their high resolution images. I did go back and check several of Stacks sales as well ... in any case it does not appear to be a re-punched without some other coin popping up.

.
set registry? a little more work but very organized. - i've had a good success rate tracking things through there. probably 75-80% of what i'm looking for tends to be there. i admit though, it is hit and miss.

coinfacts doesn't have a comprehensive listing with images???

There are 7 images on PCGS CoinFacts -
1 MS (from Heritage) https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1858-1c-j-211/11892
3 PR-65 https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1858-1c-j-211/11893
3 PR-64 https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1858-1c-j-211/images/11893
6 are the centered date and rounded bust, and 1 is low and pointed bust.
Navigation is not great; you land on the MS page, and then you click to the PR-65 page and then again to the PR-64s.

1858 J-211 Re punch Date or something else?

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