Amazing how people get pats on the back here for outing something as ridiculous as an eBay 1791 trade dollar but talk bad about a dealer selling fakes to the public and and people play defense . It really does takes a village.
@coiner said:
Just weigh the dollars—fakes are always light.
That’s not true.
True in my neck of the woods. Operated a B&M for many years and the fakes were always underweight.
You use the past tense and neglect to consider that goods can be very easily moved from one neck of the woods to another via mail as justification for a sweeping generalization that was made with no caveats at all...
I've used the phrase "in my neck of the woods " for, well, decades and never gave it much thought. In the interest of adding an educational side to this thread, I found this from 2006 on the forum "WordReference.com"
"My neck of the woods" simply means my area, my particular environs. The word neck applies to a stretch of coastline that doubles back on itself, I'd say it's a protrusion not prominent enough to be a promontory, or a narrow connective bit of land connecting a small promontory. Sometimes necks are submerged at high tide, and the "promontory" becomes a small island, or simply "rock." On a larger, more continental scale you'd call such a feature an isthmus-- but it usually goes the other way in AE, where people give up on the tongue-twisting borrowed-Greek term and call an isthmus a neck.
As the great forests have long been reduced to isolated island-like stands of woods, I think neck must've come into the language by analogy. A neck connects a protrusion of wooded growth into an upper drainage, just as a neck connects a small promontory to the mainland. Often settlers cleared the upper part of a drainage and left the narrow (neck-like)entry to their particular "holler" overgrown except for the trail or lane, an easily-defended entryway that would be regionally known as someone's particular neck of the woods.
Oh, and I have a couple of rather deceptive Trade Dollar fakes that have the correct weight.
@TurtleCat said:
It doesn’t surprise me as there are many who look for a fast buck, especially with something difficult to trace and pin down. Sadly many will fall prey to such people before their own hubris or greed causes them to be exposed for the frauds they are.
It also goes to once again show that one needs knowledge to buy well and why TPGs are good for the hobby even if they have some drawbacks of their own.
But you see, this is why coin collecting is a dying hobby:
The barrier to entry is fundamentally FAR too high for any novice to ever enter and feel the faintest semblance of security, even if it were only a false sense for a fleeting period of time.
There are too many fakes. Period. And we all know which country is making the most of them.
Until new collectors can enter the market without fear of being sold an advanced fake (that only an $800 machine can tell you if it's real Silver or Gold or not), then our hobby will continue to dwindle.
The median age of a coin collector is 64 years old. That's unsustainable. We need more young people in this hobby/investment or else the values of our collections will inevitably go over a cliffs' edge.
Fake coins are the #1 reason for why so many newcomers get scared off from collecting coins. Who wants to get into a hobby or investment where high quality, nearly undetectable counterfeits are so prevalent that they outnumber the real thing 100:1, or 1000:1? If we don't solve this problem, it's all over.
I avoided gold coins years ago for this very reason. Then a dealer told me that an awful lot of gold coins were counterfeits, and then he said "so what? they are still real gold". This statement hung with me for many years, I did not even look at gold coins. I buy coins for collector value-not bullion value, even though sometimes bullion value and collector value are the same.
@kaz said:
I've used the phrase "in my neck of the woods " for, well, decades and never gave it much thought. In the interest of adding an educational side to this thread, I found this from 2006 on the forum "WordReference.com"
"My neck of the woods" simply means my area, my particular environs. The word neck applies to a stretch of coastline that doubles back on itself, I'd say it's a protrusion not prominent enough to be a promontory, or a narrow connective bit of land connecting a small promontory. Sometimes necks are submerged at high tide, and the "promontory" becomes a small island, or simply "rock." On a larger, more continental scale you'd call such a feature an isthmus-- but it usually goes the other way in AE, where people give up on the tongue-twisting borrowed-Greek term and call an isthmus a neck.
As the great forests have long been reduced to isolated island-like stands of woods, I think neck must've come into the language by analogy. A neck connects a protrusion of wooded growth into an upper drainage, just as a neck connects a small promontory to the mainland. Often settlers cleared the upper part of a drainage and left the narrow (neck-like)entry to their particular "holler" overgrown except for the trail or lane, an easily-defended entryway that would be regionally known as someone's particular neck of the woods.
Oh, and I have a couple of rather deceptive Trade Dollar fakes that have the correct weight.
Holler? So, if you could scream/holler really loud you could own more land. Tarzan owned the jungle.
@Kdennison said:
I hate to be a jerk, but I don't understand why this post exists.
You're not a jerk. But there is a reason why this post exists.
@Kdennison said:
You're unwilling to say where, or when, or who
If you can't prove someone is selling fakes then they can sue you for defamation. As you aptly noted.
@Kdennison said:
the amount of detail given is way too much and irrelevant.
That's where you're wrong. I gave the details I did to convey a specific few key points, which perhaps you missed, but that's okay because I will spell them out for you:
1) Sometimes dishonest people can make an honest mistake. (He was dishonest for reneging on the bet, but seemed to have honestly missed the fact that the two coins were fakes when he bought them).
2) Sometimes arrogant people can learn to be humble (He was initially convinced they were real, but came to realize they were fake in my absence. He was simply unwilling to pay me the two silver dollars he owed me for demonstrating that.)
3) You can't trust every coin dealer. Then again, that applies to all people, but some people put dealers on a pedestal like as if no dealer would ever sell a fake when that's just hogwash.
So yes, in fact, there is a reasoning to my details. A method to the madness.
@Kdennison said:
Just tell us that as always keep a sharp eye, someone tried to pass off two fake coins as genuine. I knew they were fakes because they didn't resonate like silver and the guy acted shady when confronted.
Except that isn't exactly what happened, and wouldn't teach the same lesson(s) as I intended to teach. An oversimplified story would truly serve no purpose beyond the anecdotal. My description is multifaceted to give multiple variables for one to analyze (psychological, financial, strategical, etc). An oversimplified story would truly be a waste of everyone's time. Hence I give details. None are extraneous.
@Kdennison said:
I don't understand the discourse and bird walking about sworn law enforcement and FBI profiling, etc.
I will only identify the person, the time, and the location where this happened to someone in a position of authority to do something about it, because like I said before, I don't want to be sued for defamation, and secondly, unless people selling fakes are going to face criminal charges, then there is no point. I have learned with many conversations with Secret Service agents, local police, and various law enforcement agents that largely inaction is the norm. So unless someone with power is willing to start arresting these people, I see no benefit in naming them.
Wow. Thats not good. I've had dealers rip me off with prices, but never with a fake coin, the one time I bought a fake coin, he refunded me the money immediatly! It's sad what people would do to make a buck...
@coiner said:
Just weigh the dollars—fakes are always light.
if you were so sure, I have only one direct question:
Why did you not call 911 and ask for police to attend the testing... all while u are still at the place having your items in sight? something does not chive here...
are you a rep for that fancy machine?
BTW, an XRF unit is much superior.
@keets said: I immediately informed the dealer that these two coins he was selling were fake.
this was a mistake and his response should have been expected.
Yea, but he came to the party ready to go with the Sigma in the car. Unfortunately not on his person where he could have just whipped it out right there. The story line would have been dramatically different.
Now I see why people take a break from this forum. Too many experts who actually have very little knowledge to share but lots of opinions and comments that are much better left unspoken.
Comments
Amazing how people get pats on the back here for outing something as ridiculous as an eBay 1791 trade dollar but talk bad about a dealer selling fakes to the public and and people play defense . It really does takes a village.
Thank you! I have wondered for years if that was the reason I have the outlook that i do. You have just confirmed it, But What me worry?
You use the past tense and neglect to consider that goods can be very easily moved from one neck of the woods to another via mail as justification for a sweeping generalization that was made with no caveats at all...
I've used the phrase "in my neck of the woods " for, well, decades and never gave it much thought. In the interest of adding an educational side to this thread, I found this from 2006 on the forum "WordReference.com"
"My neck of the woods" simply means my area, my particular environs. The word neck applies to a stretch of coastline that doubles back on itself, I'd say it's a protrusion not prominent enough to be a promontory, or a narrow connective bit of land connecting a small promontory. Sometimes necks are submerged at high tide, and the "promontory" becomes a small island, or simply "rock." On a larger, more continental scale you'd call such a feature an isthmus-- but it usually goes the other way in AE, where people give up on the tongue-twisting borrowed-Greek term and call an isthmus a neck.
As the great forests have long been reduced to isolated island-like stands of woods, I think neck must've come into the language by analogy. A neck connects a protrusion of wooded growth into an upper drainage, just as a neck connects a small promontory to the mainland. Often settlers cleared the upper part of a drainage and left the narrow (neck-like)entry to their particular "holler" overgrown except for the trail or lane, an easily-defended entryway that would be regionally known as someone's particular neck of the woods.
Oh, and I have a couple of rather deceptive Trade Dollar fakes that have the correct weight.
I avoided gold coins years ago for this very reason. Then a dealer told me that an awful lot of gold coins were counterfeits, and then he said "so what? they are still real gold". This statement hung with me for many years, I did not even look at gold coins. I buy coins for collector value-not bullion value, even though sometimes bullion value and collector value are the same.
Holler? So, if you could scream/holler really loud you could own more land. Tarzan owned the jungle.
I hope this was a joke.
You're not a jerk. But there is a reason why this post exists.
If you can't prove someone is selling fakes then they can sue you for defamation. As you aptly noted.
That's where you're wrong. I gave the details I did to convey a specific few key points, which perhaps you missed, but that's okay because I will spell them out for you:
1) Sometimes dishonest people can make an honest mistake. (He was dishonest for reneging on the bet, but seemed to have honestly missed the fact that the two coins were fakes when he bought them).
2) Sometimes arrogant people can learn to be humble (He was initially convinced they were real, but came to realize they were fake in my absence. He was simply unwilling to pay me the two silver dollars he owed me for demonstrating that.)
3) You can't trust every coin dealer. Then again, that applies to all people, but some people put dealers on a pedestal like as if no dealer would ever sell a fake when that's just hogwash.
So yes, in fact, there is a reasoning to my details. A method to the madness.
Except that isn't exactly what happened, and wouldn't teach the same lesson(s) as I intended to teach. An oversimplified story would truly serve no purpose beyond the anecdotal. My description is multifaceted to give multiple variables for one to analyze (psychological, financial, strategical, etc). An oversimplified story would truly be a waste of everyone's time. Hence I give details. None are extraneous.
I will only identify the person, the time, and the location where this happened to someone in a position of authority to do something about it, because like I said before, I don't want to be sued for defamation, and secondly, unless people selling fakes are going to face criminal charges, then there is no point. I have learned with many conversations with Secret Service agents, local police, and various law enforcement agents that largely inaction is the norm. So unless someone with power is willing to start arresting these people, I see no benefit in naming them.
Thanks for your consideration.
Wow. Thats not good. I've had dealers rip me off with prices, but never with a fake coin, the one time I bought a fake coin, he refunded me the money immediatly! It's sad what people would do to make a buck...
Not always.
I'm guessing his believing the machine was accurate was, in turn, contingent on it saying his coins were genuine.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
if you were so sure, I have only one direct question:
Why did you not call 911 and ask for police to attend the testing... all while u are still at the place having your items in sight? something does not chive here...
are you a rep for that fancy machine?
BTW, an XRF unit is much superior.
human greed knows no limit
https://photos.app.goo.gl/amosQ58fi54gUrgX7
You are stating that if a coin is not underweight, it is authentic, which is not true.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
I immediately informed the dealer that these two coins he was selling were fake.
this was a mistake and his response should have been expected.
Yea, but he came to the party ready to go with the Sigma in the car. Unfortunately not on his person where he could have just whipped it out right there. The story line would have been dramatically different.
I’m not stating that it is always the case. But let’s say 95% of the time for all of you guys hanging on every word people post.
Now I see why people take a break from this forum. Too many experts who actually have very little knowledge to share but lots of opinions and comments that are much better left unspoken.