Crooked coin dealer
RedstoneCoins
Posts: 217 ✭✭✭
For legal reasons, I won't go into where this happened or who was involved. But this is a true story and it happened to me personally. I will not answer any questions about where this happened or who was involved (unless you are a sworn law enforcement officer and ask for the information for a legal investigation). I tell you of this story to warn our community of the prevalence of crooks, and to encourage people to protect themselves, and to verify everything one buys is authentic, regardless of the source:
I came across a dealer with a table selling coins at a show. He had a variety of Silver dollars, 1oz Silver bars, (and some copper rounds if I recall correctly). Among the pile of Morgan dollars stood out two suspicious coins, one with a strange color/tarnish and the other with strange denticles. Both coins appeared to closely simulate the real version, with outstanding detail that would have fooled any novice and perhaps a seasoned collector who did not inspect the coins closely (like if they came in a bulk lot, or bag with other coins sold for scrap value).
Taking one of the Peace dollars that appeared legitimate, I checked it for the resonant frequency (aka the "ping" test), and it rang true - that same ring of real Silver I have heard a thousand times over in many other Silver dollars I have held. It was real.
Then I took the two suspicious Morgan dollars, which eerily reminded me of the Chinese fakes I had seen on eBay, Craigslist, Wish.com, etc and performed the same ring test. Of course, they failed miserably and rang extremely high pitched (as brass or another alloy of metals other than Silver would ring).
I immediately informed the dealer that these two coins he was selling were fake. He became defensive and angry, and vehemently denied this, insisting they were real. He claimed to inspect every coin he got carefully for authenticity. I told him I was quite sure they were fake, and was willing to bet that they were fake. He said he would bet $1,000 they were real. After some discussion, we agreed that since it was only two silver dollars, a fair bet would be to bet two silver dollars. (If I was right, he would give me two real silver dollars for free, but if I was wrong, I would pay him the full amount for the coins but he would keep the coins.) I told him I had a machine to test the coins in my truck, and that it would take me a couple of minutes to get it and come right back. (The Sigma Metalytics Precious Metals Verifier. Were his coins composed of brass, as I suspected, this fact would have easily been proven by the machine).
He agreed to the bet, contingent on him believing the machine was accurate. Leaving the two coins right in front of him on a binder full of coins, he agreed not to leave the table or move the coins until I came back.
After retrieving the machine and coming back to his table, I saw the coins were no longer on the binder and asked him what happened. He said he placed the two coins back in the pile of other silver dollars, thinking that I had left and would not return. I looked through the pile and the two coins were not in the small pile of coins. He denied removing the coins or putting them anywhere else. He clearly did not want me to test the coins because he knew they were fake. He was lying to my face because he didn't want to get caught.
[For those who aren't lawyers, the phrase "mens rea" is probably something you aren't familiar with, but essentially the Latin phrase translates to "guilty conscience". It's a phrase lawyers often use in court to indicate that someone's pattern of behavior is indicative of someone with something to hide.
This dealer likely sold thousands of dollars a day in goods to the public, based on the quantity and wide selection of coins he had in front of him, most of which appeared to be real (but appearances can be deceiving).]
Interestingly, when I pulled out the machine from the factory bag, the dealer got a nasty look on his face, and immediately said, "I know what that is.", as if to imply that he knew it would prove the coins were fake.
(For those who don't know, the Sigma Metalytics PMV can detect counterfeit coins that correctly mimic the most commonly measured aspects of coins - the weight and the volume - but fail to account for proper electrical resistivity of a real coin. Counterfeits that rely on alloying two metals with specific gravities above and below that of Silver - such as Lead and Copper - most often cannot mimic the electrical resistivity/magnetic properties of real Silver, which is far more conductive than Lead is.
The Sigma PMV machine can measure and quantify the electrical resistivity of a coin for human interpretation, thereby determining if a coin is fake or real in terms of metallic composition.
However, the Sigma PMV can only assist in determining if a coin is made of the proper metallic composition, and is therefore not as useful in numismatics where counterfeits can be made of the same alloy as the original, authentic coin is composed of. But in cases of bullion or low-grade Silver dollars/junk 90% Silver coins, it is very useful in assisting verification processes.)
Any dealer with a reluctance to allow their coins to be verified as authentic is not someone you should trust. Had he not hidden the coins away, and actually honored our agreement to let the coins remain on the table for me to test, he knew he would have to either claim my machine was inaccurate (which could have easily been disproven by taking known real coins and testing them on the machine to prove it works, etc.), or he would have had to pay me, which he obviously didn't want to do.
He didn't want to be caught. He had a guilty conscience. Mens rea.
Be careful out there, folks.
Edited for grammar
Comments
Where did this happen? Who was involved?
I haven't heard that one before...
It doesn’t surprise me as there are many who look for a fast buck, especially with something difficult to trace and pin down. Sadly many will fall prey to such people before their own hubris or greed causes them to be exposed for the frauds they are.
It also goes to once again show that one needs knowledge to buy well and why TPGs are good for the hobby even if they have some drawbacks of their own.
TurtleCat Gold Dollars
Nice catch! I would go back tomorrow with machine in carry or send a friend. And whip it out right before the purchase is done. If for nothing else just to see the look on his face when you say resistivity.
wasn't there a post recently of an old timey letter from the mint saying something along the lines of there are a bunch of crooks out there?
Did it really make sense to bet with this dealer ?
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
You won the bet!
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
But you see, this is why coin collecting is a dying hobby:
The barrier to entry is fundamentally FAR too high for any novice to ever enter and feel the faintest semblance of security, even if it were only a false sense for a fleeting period of time.
There are too many fakes. Period. And we all know which country is making the most of them.
Until new collectors can enter the market without fear of being sold an advanced fake (that only an $800 machine can tell you if it's real Silver or Gold or not), then our hobby will continue to dwindle.
The median age of a coin collector is 64 years old. That's unsustainable. We need more young people in this hobby/investment or else the values of our collections will inevitably go over a cliffs' edge.
Fake coins are the #1 reason for why so many newcomers get scared off from collecting coins. Who wants to get into a hobby or investment where high quality, nearly undetectable counterfeits are so prevalent that they outnumber the real thing 100:1, or 1000:1? If we don't solve this problem, it's all over.
yolo
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/date-sets/hashtags-prefect-coin-grading-service-1879/album/7621
When you consider his initial reaction - total disbelief, a strong firm stance that what he was selling was absolutely genuine, and an express willingness to bet money on it - on that alone I got the initial feeling that he was sincere and telling the truth about what he believed. (Which is part of why I refused his $1,000 bet - even though that would have made me slightly richer - because I wasn't trying to make him suffer for making what I thought was a mistake on his part. I just wanted to educate him, to help him avoid fakes, since at that time I thought he genuinely didn't know they were fake).
Usually, as any FBI profiler or human behavior specialist can tell you, human protopsychological instincts compel a person being confronted to assume a submissive and nonaggressive reaction. i.e., his stance would not have been so obstinate and his conviction not so expressly certain. Most people, when they know what they are selling is fake, and are caught in the act, will not necessarily admit wrongdoing but will instead concede that it is possible that the item is fake and will ask how the other party can prove it. People usually only get stubborn when their ego gets in the way.
Based off of his initial reaction, I figured he was being sincere that he thought it was real. It was only when I came back to inspect the coins and he deliberately hid them and lied about it that it became obvious that he was a crook. (His facial expressions, body language, and intonation when I returned and he claimed he put the coins "back in the stack" were not as convincing as his initial reaction to being told the coins were fake, which tells me that he might have really not known they were fake when he put them on the table, but inspected them for the couple of minutes I was gone and simply decided not to honor the deal on the bet, which makes him a crook as well).
In either case, the bet was symbolic: I wasn't trying to get rich off the guy, I was simply trying to demonstrate the power of scientific instruments in catching the modern Chinese counterfeits and instead ended up proving that there are still crooked and incompetent dealers out there.
Yes the bet was worth it. I learned to avoid that dealer. That dealer learned that there are savvy members of the public he better watch out for, otherwise he will get caught selling counterfeit coins to the public.
I was in the building for a different purpose and did not anticipate the need for it. Usually, you can trust dealers. Obviously, not this one!
Early on I realized fakes are a problem and decided to eliminate the issue by only buying pcgs coins and buying from dealers/auction houses that would also spot a fake slab.
I hate to be a jerk, but I don't understand why this post exists. You're unwilling to say where, or when, or who, so the amount of detail given is way too much and irrelevant. Just tell us that as always keep a sharp eye, someone tried to pass off two fake coins as genuine. I knew they were fakes because they didn't resonate like silver and the guy acted shady when confronted.
I don't understand the discourse and bird walking about sworn law enforcement and FBI profiling, etc. If you're not going to warn about a specific vendor in order to better inform us (caveat emptor since you like Latin) what's the point?
Maybe I'm in the minority here. And I understand your concern maybe for libel, which is genuine -- but if that is the concern and you're still bugged by the dealer file an incident report with the local police.
I would set the guy up by sending another buyer and video the interaction.
You're not a jerk. But there is a reason why this post exists.
If you can't prove someone is selling fakes then they can sue you for defamation. As you aptly noted.
That's where you're wrong. I gave the details I did to convey a specific few key points, which perhaps you missed, but that's okay because I will spell them out for you:
1) Sometimes dishonest people can make an honest mistake. (He was dishonest for reneging on the bet, but seemed to have honestly missed the fact that the two coins were fakes when he bought them).
2) Sometimes arrogant people can learn to be humble (He was initially convinced they were real, but came to realize they were fake in my absence. He was simply unwilling to pay me the two silver dollars he owed me for demonstrating that.)
3) You can't trust every coin dealer. Then again, that applies to all people, but some people put dealers on a pedestal like as if no dealer would ever sell a fake when that's just hogwash.
So yes, in fact, there is a reasoning to my details. A method to the madness.
Except that isn't exactly what happened, and wouldn't teach the same lesson(s) as I intended to teach. An oversimplified story would truly serve no purpose beyond the anecdotal. My description is multifaceted to give multiple variables for one to analyze (psychological, financial, strategical, etc). An oversimplified story would truly be a waste of everyone's time. Hence I give details. None are extraneous.
I will only identify the person, the time, and the location where this happened to someone in a position of authority to do something about it, because like I said before, I don't want to be sued for defamation, and secondly, unless people selling fakes are going to face criminal charges, then there is no point. I have learned with many conversations with Secret Service agents, local police, and various law enforcement agents that largely inaction is the norm. So unless someone with power is willing to start arresting these people, I see no benefit in naming them.
Thanks for your consideration.
1) based on the type of inventory you mentioned this guy does not seem like a professional dealer.
2) he may well have thought they were real, or didn't care, but decided to hide evidence when the aggressive customer upped the ante by bringing in equipment.
3) I agree with your disgust, frustration, etc., but at some point you should just move along. I am not sure you need to challenge these people to that extent.
It's hand held, battery powered and can identify slabbed fake precious metal coins. Let us not forget that there are counterfeit PCGS slabs out there.
“There are decades where nothing happens; and there are weeks where decades happen.” - Lenin
I'm not sure what the distinguishing difference between a "professional" dealer is from a regular dealer, but this guy had business cards, was selling to the general public, had display cases intended for public marketing, and had enough inventory on hand to drain someone's savings account. He was definitely a dealer. Not a big dealer like APMEX, but a dealer nonetheless.
Is the customer aggressive for pointing out that the dealer's item is fake, or is the dealer aggressive for immediately becoming defensive and trying to place a $1,000 bet on the coins (that the customer gently de-escalated to a mere $66, to soften the blow to the dealer's wallet)? I think it's clear the dealer was more aggressive, on top of being dishonest.
If we don't challenge people selling fakes, and those arrogant enough to think they could never have one in their own collection, then these fakes will continue to disseminate unabated, destroying countless billions of dollars in value from both the precious metals market and the numismatic market.
That's your collection losing value because of fakes. And mine! That should outrage you, and any other coin collector.
I will never apologize for trying to educate the public about fakes, nor for confronting the arrogant dealers who, wittingly or unwittingly, disseminate them into private collections.
Greed is out there in every hobby and corner of society.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
I like the way you think.
Regardless of who this person is or how petty his crime I do find this post very interesting and informative.
Crooks can be very elusive and cunning and easily take advantage of the amateur buyer. Ie. myself.
@RedstoneCoins With your background certainly some defensive responses would raise a brow yet you handled it like a pro. I take it you’re still at work
I think two hotheads were going at it.
It must have been a sight to witness.
I am not sure what you accomplished in the end, and the next time you might incur the wrath of someone who might turn violent.
Next time why not call the police and let them witness the testing? Or film yourself buying a forgery and taking him to court, etc.
What we have learned from this thread is that there are people selling fake coins. But we already knew that.
Remind me never to play poker with Redstone.
I am shocked he allowed the conversation to advance that far and that long.
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I always have a magnet with me when I look at raw silver coins. It’s low tech and cheap but it works quite well.
Play solitaire with me, it's more fun.
Y’all guys are missing the whole point. He basically caught a crook red handed and you guys are all ho hum about it.
Sure it’s not worth calling the popo and/or suffering the consequences but it’s a story damnit and one that everyone typically seems to care about.
Okay I’m done now
carry on 
Don't get me wrong. I like the idea that a crook was called out. That is good entertainment in it's own right. But I can see a few ways a scenario like this could go south. If someone is willing to take that chance then I say keep up the good fight.
I am not a hothead. But I promise you, if someone got violent with me, my training in the US Army would kick in and they would come to regret starting any violent altercation with me. That's a promise.
Good night, y'all.
Great story, and even better job. Too bad the knucklehead wussies out of your bet, but then he knew he was guilty and wanted to avoid the obvious embarrassment and the law
You should have reported the dealer to the show organizer. Tell them your story, along with your concern that he could be cheating novice collectors. The last thing the organizer wants is bad PR because of a crooked dealer. Maybe they do something, maybe they don't but at least it gets to somebody who can do something.
Did you talk to any other dealers near by that saw the exchange? Word can travel pretty quickly at shows
I don't believe counterfeits are the primary reason more people don't collect or quit collecting. Most coins aren't worth the bother of counterfeiting. It's limited to a low minority of either more expensive coins or common coins with a large enough buyer base (such as Morgan dollars) where producing fakes in large enough numbers is still profitable. US coinage is either counterfeited the most often or among the most often because it's profitable to do so.
A better reason is that fewer people find it interesting enough for their time and money. Second, the declining price level. The overwhelming majority are not going to make anywhere near an equivalent financial commitment to many on this forum without the expectation of getting most, all or even more of their money back.
Every time someone says coin dealer, I think of this guy.
I mostly buy PCGS graded coins online from reputable auction houses, preferably, w/ a TrueView.
Occasionally I'll get one off e-bay using PayPal but I'm kind of afraid of the "empty box" grift.
My Saint Set
Can you review him on Yelp!
Assuming you have recounted the story accurately, you are part of the problem. These people continue to act with impunity because nobody names them.
Posting the information here would be unlikely to do much, if any good. But it would subject the OP to a potential libel suit and be against the rules of this forum. As Oldhoopster suggested, if the OP wanted to take action, the dealer probably should have been reported to the show promoter.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
You should contact the producers of Criminal Minds. It could be an episode.
Interesting case. I am not surprised he hid the 'coins' while you were gone. An individual with that much inventory and business trapping (i.e. cards, cases etc.) is not an amateur. He knew they were fake and was about to be exposed. Good work. Cheers, RickO
Was this reported to the bourse chairman? Bourse forms for shows dealers sign prohibit fake coins.
Sounds like he got the dealer to remove the fake coins from his case, that is an accomplishment. Sure, he might slip them back in tomorrow but I'll take a two silver dollar bet that he won't after a healthy serving of "the public isn't all uninformed" or "I should be more careful buying", depending on the reason for the coins being out in the first place. Yes, the dealer is a scumbag for not honoring a bet, but better to be a scumbag for that than continuing to try to peddle fakes(even if by accident).
The OP made it abundantly clear that he is under the impression that the dealer didn't realize the coins were fake.
He made this post as a PSA for us, and as an informative story, not as a "watch out for this dealer who I will not name". In fact, not naming the dealer is better, as people should realize that it could be any dealer.
The OP called out the dealer, and ultimately got him to pull the coins. How is he "part of the problem" as you say? I think saying that is going too far.
Collector, occasional seller
This is a low quality thread. Little information, nothing actionable, not the least bit educational, amusing or diverting.
"There are no called strikes in coin collecting."--
Henry David ThoreauRYKDon't sell yourself short, @RYK. You've got a way with words that elevates even the most uneducational, unamusing, and nondiverting threads.
caddy shack maybe?
Was this a nationally recognized dealer or just some local Jamoke?
“I may not believe in myself but I believe in what I’m doing” ~Jimmy Page~
My Full Walker Registry Set:
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
Fake "coins" were at a table at a show? Wow. Never heard of that before.
It might be entertaining to "out" someone like this, but I'm more of a live and let live kind of guy. I might say something like "These two don't look genuine to me" and leave it at that. I can see little to be gained by pressing the issue at the guy's table. Hauling in a piece of equipment from the parking lot hardly seems sane. If I paid for the table I would have (kindly?) requested that you leave the table at that point. There are easier and better ways to detect counterfeits, even ones made from the correct alloy.
For what it's worth, all of the big TPGs, have, on occasion, slabbed counterfeit coins as genuine. It happens. I'm sure almost every busy dealer here has had similar stuff in their cases at least once over the years. When discovered, the good TPGs make good on their guaranty. Good dealers do too.
The other side of the story would be interesting, no doubt. He might be a scumbag, but I can think of at least 100 ways something like this could happen to great dealers too.
Let's just say every dealer at that show now knows to watch out for that guy, and to be extra careful when (and if) they trade with him.
Just weigh the dollars—fakes are always light.
Only underweight ones
That’s not true.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Apparently I am more easily amused than RYK. That's what reading MAD magazine when you are a kid does to you.
True in my neck of the woods. Operated a B&M for many years and the fakes were always underweight.