WingedLiberty1957- thanks for the full explanation. Look, even in the case of my 56-D Cent that started this all off... if I was to ever offer out the coin, I would add something to the base value for it being the very first 67BN Cent PCGS ever awarded that grade to (and a big bonus for Lauren). Of course, I could ask any premium I wanted for my coin and no one has to ever pay it! Lol. So, while I thought your personal estimate of my coin was low, it was not offensive in any way. And, quite possibly the proper valuation for the coin, emotions and attachments aside. And, of course, like so many others with these 67BN graded coins, I believe my coin (graded 8 1/2 years ago one time through) is a sure 67+, shot 68 today.
So, if you want to make it interesting, why not have your personal estimate for each coin (as you did) and then the owner’s personal estimate underneath that. Now, wouldn’t that be fun! At a minimum, it will show how much the owners love their coins (or how greedy they are!). I’ll start it off if you want - your estimate was $1,500-$2,000 for my coin. Owner’s estimate $7,500+ (shot 68 and first one every graded). Finally graded 67BN after how many hundreds of thousands of submissions- I forgot what you told me at the time back in 2012.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
@wondercoin said:
WingedLiberty1957- thanks for the full explanation. Look, even in the case of my 56-D Cent that started this all off... if I was to ever offer out the coin, I would add something to the base value for it being the very first 67BN Cent PCGS ever awarded that grade to (and a big bonus for Lauren). Of course, I could ask any premium I wanted for my coin and no one has to ever pay it! Lol. So, while I thought your personal estimate of my coin was low, it was not offensive in any way. And, quite possibly the proper valuation for the coin, emotions and attachments aside. And, of course, like so many others with these 67BN graded coins, I believe my coin (graded 8 1/2 years ago one time through) is a sure 67+, shot 68 today.
So, if you want to make it interesting, why not have your personal estimate for each coin (as you did) and then the owner’s personal estimate underneath that. Now, wouldn’t that be fun! At a minimum, it will show how much the owners love their coins (or how greedy they are!). I’ll start it off if you want - your estimate was $1,500-$2,000 for my coin. Owner’s estimate $7,500+ (shot 68 and first one every graded). Finally graded 67BN after how many hundreds of thousands of submissions- I forgot what you told me at the time back in 2012.
Wondercoin
I thought some of the previously estimated prices looked too high. But that didn’t and doesn’t really matter, because it was OPINIONS which had been provided.
It sounds to me as If the person who messaged WingedLiberty1957 had a vested interest in such coins and pressured him to edit his post. I believe that it would have been more honorable and informative for him to have posted his opinions and basis for them, instead.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
WonderCoins and MFeld, this does sound like fun! I'll give it a whirl. However based on new info recently acquired. I think I might modify some of my earlier numbers on rough valuation.
Please note everyone, this is just my stupid dumb opinion so dont rip into me too much. Ask 100 people and you'll get 100 different opinions. Some will say these are all just common coins worth a few cents, others will say they are the cat's meow and worth much more than what I think.
1956-D I agree with you WonderCoins, this one is prob deserving of a bonus for being the 1st known MS67BN. That's history for you! Plus added points that its the only 1956-D. There are already four 67BN 1957-D's so that's bound to knock things down a bit for that date/mint combo. One other bonus for this one is I absolutely love the look of this, it's my favorite toner in terms of eye appeal front to back from the late 1950's mint set years (where there are 5 67BN's). I also love the fact that we have a eye-witness for the history of this, that it was popped out of a cardboard mint set and it's owned by the same guy that popped it out. I love it when there is absolutely no doubt of a coin being NT and you can trace the lineage all the way back. I kind of hope you never sell this one, as it has such a cool story with it.
WL Estimate of a reasonable market price: $3,000 - $4,000.
(However we all know the drill, something is worth what someone else is willing to pay, so I dont really have an issue with your $7500+ value)
1957-D This is harder for me as I actually was the one to make this coin into a 67BN and owned it for nearly 7 years. Funny for me rather than overvaluing and/or overgrading my own coins, I tend to undervalue them for some reason. I always feel like others have better stuff. Maybe it's the grass is always greener syndrome. Plus knowing that NGC graded it RB, I always felt like it was a RB/BN tweener. I think if I cracked this out and sent it back into PCGS, it could come back as low as 66 or 66+ and could come back as an RB. so I feel like I kind of got lucky with this one. As far as I know that coin traded around a bit in late 2019 and early 2020 in the $1000 to $1500 range. So maybe I will increase my estimate a bit.
WL Estimate of a reasonable market price: $1,300 - $1,800.
1916-D Of all the coins on this list, this is my favorite, the best technically, and IMHO the one most deserving of our first MS68BN. Jeez, it looks like a Matte Proof with those dimples in the field. So maybe someday this will be upgraded and reach that lofty MS68BN pinnacle. PCGS actually lists this one in their price guide 1916-D MS67BN at $10,000. However who knows how much that would pop if it were to ever be regraded MS68BN, Based on the jump in the RD prices for 1918 and 1919 between 67 and 68 (where the price guide jumped the price 10x), I have to wonder if an MS68BN 1916-D might jump the price a bit more conservative 5x between those 2 grades, that would take the price guide of an MS68BN to $50,000. Possible? Maybe IDK.
WL Estimate of a reasonable market price at MS67BN: $25,000 to $30,000 (price is bumped up due to the upgrade potential)
1909 VDB This is really hard to evaluate without a professional out-of-the-slab TV photo. It actually doesnt look like an MS67BN based on these photos, I might have peaked out at MS66+BN . Still the PCGS price guide lists this at $21,000 and it sold in auction for a bit over $20,000. So I think thats a pretty good starting point. Late news, based on late breaking info from CUForum member SSR I upped my earlier posted market price estimate.
WL Estimate of a reasonable market price at MS67BN: $30,000+.
1937-D JMHO, but I never loved the looks of this one. I know it sold for $1500 a few years ago. Still the color is nice. I think i would keep this in a rough range where is sold a few years ago
WL Estimate of a reasonable market price: $1,500 - $1,800.
1936-D I remember very well when this came up for auction on the GreatCollections website. Even tho I am a lover of high grade BN's I didnt bid on it. It just wasnt flashy enough. Still it did sell for a very reasonable price in the $500's.
WL Estimate of a reasonable market price: $700 - $1,000.
1936 This is the phantom MIA coin. I have no idea what it looks like so who knows.
It's impossible to put a price on this not knowing what i looks like, but I would say any 67BN slab should garner at least $500 even if the coin is ugly.
WL Estimate of a reasonable market price: $500 to who knows (sight unseen).
1916 This is a gorgeous beast. I hunted for this one for over 7 years and it finally turned up in Andy S's hands. I bought it for $5000 just to say I owned it for a while, however it was really out of my league in terms of a price. After a few months I had Andy sell this for me and I think he sold it between $6k and $7k. I might add a bit to that value just based on a bit more time going by and there being so many more colorfully toned BN lincoln collectors today
WL Estimate of a reasonable market price: $7,000 to $10,000
1957-D This was the 2nd 1957-D graded. The green color is outrageous tho, could be the best obverse of all the 1957-D's but I never particularly liked the reverse. This is another BN/RB tweener, which is kind of common in the late 1950's mint set years.
WL Estimate of a reasonable market price: $1,500 - $2,000. (a bit of a bump for flashy green, which is very popular)
1957-D This is another one I owned. It was NGC MS67RB originally, then later PCGS MS67RB. Finally graded MS67BN. This is yet another RB/BN tweener. However it's very flashy both sides. I bought it for around $600 years ago and sold it to Robec for around $500. After regrading at 67BN, it gets a sizeable price bump.
WL Estimate of a reasonable market price: $1,300 - $1,800.
1916 This is the 2nd 1916 to make this grade. I always felt like this one was a bit unusual looking, but Andy S. who I trust completely told me its def NT and beautiful. I would need to see it in hand to make a better judgement. JMHO but I dont think it's as nice as the first 1916 (coin #8) so I would drop the price a bit from those levels.
WL Estimate of a reasonable market price: $4,000 to $6,000
1912 I love this one! Gorgeous. PCGS punted on the price guide with nothing listed, however it did list a 67RB at $5000, so I wlll estimte that if PCGS did list a price it would be around $4000 maybe since PCGS always knocks down the price of BN's under RB's. However I would probably go 3x from there in terms of market value, just based on the great eye appeal and the early date.
WL Estimate of a reasonable market price: $10,000 to $15,000
1911-S Boy, talk about a rarity. This is a semi-key date/mint. To combine that with a top pop grade and the eye appeal. This is a definition of a Monster. I was trying to do a statistical match of the SVDB which had a 5.5x jump between 66BN and 67BN. The 11S 66BN is listed at $2,600 ... so if I did a 5.5x pop of that ... i get a pcgs guide of around $14.500. This actually matches very closely to what this coin was bought for in August 2020 (around $15,000). Since the owner told me he's been getting offers between 20k and 30k, I will have to defer to that info!
WL Estimate of a reasonable market price: $20,000 to $30,000
1957-D. This is the 4th 1957-d to make this grade. Another pretty example. I would have to go ballpark with the other 1957-Ds on this list.
WL Estimate of a reasonable market price: $1,300 - $1,800.
1909 Well this is the earliest MS67BN! First year issue. 1909 plain is much tougher than the more heavily saved VDB. The owner told me he was offered $4k for it, so I will defer to that information!
WL Estimate of a reasonable market price: $3,000 - $4,000.
In any case, this just an opinion. so dont yell at me! Feel free to post your own estimates and reasons. It's a fun game. Stlll the bottom line is something is worth what someone else will pay, so the sky is the limit.
@WingedLiberty1957 said:
WonderCoins and MFeld, this does sound like fun! I'll give it a whirl. However based on new info recently acquired. I think I might modify some of my earlier numbers on rough valuation.
Please note everyone, this is just my stupid dumb opinion so dont rip into me too much. Ask 100 people and you'll get 100 different opinions. Some will say these are all just common coins worth a few cents, others will say they are the cat's meow and worth much more than what we think.
1956-D I agree with you WonderCoins, this one is prob deserving of a bonus for being the 1st known MS67BN. That's history for you! Plus added points that its the only 1956-D. There are already four 67BN 1957-D's so that's bound to knock things down a bit for that date/mint combo. One other bonus for this one is I absolutely love the look of this, it's my favorite toner in terms of eye appeal front to back from the late 1950's mint set years (where there are 5 67BN's). I also love the fact that we have a eye-witness for the history of this, that it was popped out of a cardboard mint set and it's owned by the same guy that popped it out. I love it when there is absolutely no doubt of a coin being NT and you can trace the lineage all the way back. I kind of hope you never sell this one, as it has such a cool story with it.
WL Estimate of a reasonable market price: $3,000 - $4,000.
(However we all know the drill, something is worth what someone else is willing to pay, so I dont really have an issue with your $7500+ value)
1957-D This is harder for me as I actually was the one to make this coin into a 67BN and owned it for nearly 7 years. Funny for me rather than overvaluing and/or overgrading my own coins, I tend to undervalue them for some reason. I always feel like others have better stuff. Maybe it's the grass is always greener syndrome. Plus knowing that NGC graded it RB, I always felt like it was a RB/BN tweener. I think if I cracked this out and sent it back into PCGS, it could come back as low as 66 or 66+ and could come back as an RB. so I feel like I kind of got lucky with this one. As far as I know that coin traded around a bit in late 2019 and early 2020 in the $1000 to $1500 range. So maybe I will increase my estimate a bit.
WL Estimate of a reasonable market price: $1,300 - $1,800.
1916-D Of all the coins on this list, this is my favorite, the best technically, and IMHO the one most deserving of our first MS68BN. Jeez, it looks like a Matte Proof with those dimples in the field. So maybe someday this will be upgraded and reach that lofty MS68BN pinnacle. PCGS actually lists this one in their price guide 1916-D MS67BN at $10,000. However who knows how much that would pop if it were to ever be regraded MS68BN, Based on the jump in the RD prices for 1918 and 1919 between 67 and 68 (where the price guide jumped the price 10x), I have to wonder if an MS68BN 1916-D might jump the price a bit more conservative 5x between those 2 grades, that would take the price guide of an MS68BN to $50,000. Possible? Maybe IDK.
WL Estimate of a reasonable market price at MS67BN: $20,000 - $30,000 (price is bumped up due to the upgrade potential)
WL Estimate of a reasonable market price at MS68BN: $70,000 - $80,000 ???
1909 VDB Geez this is really hard to evaluate without a professional out-of-the-slab TV photo. It actually doesnt look like an MS67BN based on these photos, I might have peaked out at MS66 or MS66+BN . Still the PCGS price guide lists this at $21,000 and it sold in auction for a bit over $20,000. So I think thats a pretty good ballpark.
WL Estimate of a reasonable market price at MS67BN: $20,000 - $22,000
1937-D JMHO, but I never loved the looks of this one. I know it sold for $1500 a few years ago. Still the color is nice. I think i would keep this in a rough range where is sold a few years ago
WL Estimate of a reasonable market price: $1,500 - $1,800.
1936-D I remember very well when this came up for auction on the GreatCollections website. Even tho I am a lover of high grade BN's I didnt bid on it. It just wasnt flashy enough. Still it did sell for a very reasonable price in the $500's.
WL Estimate of a reasonable market price: $700 - $1,000.
1936 This is the phantom MIA coin. I have no idea what it looks like so who knows.
It's impossible to put a price on this not knowing what i looks like, but I would say any 67BN slab should garner at least $500 even if the coin is ugly.
WL Estimate of a reasonable market price: $500+
1916 This is a gorgeous beast. I hunted for this one for over 7 years and it finally turned up in Andy S's hands. I bought it for $5000 just to say I owned it for a while, however it was really out of my league in terms of a price. After a few months I had Andy sell this for me and I think he sold it between $6k and $7k. I might add a bit to that value just based on a bit more time going by and there being so many more colorfully toned BN lincoln collectors today
WL Estimate of a reasonable market price: $7,000 to $10,000
1957-D This was the 2nd 1957-D graded. The green color is outrageous tho, could be the best obverse of all the 1957-D's but I never particularly liked the reverse. This is another BN/RB tweener, which is kind of common in the late 1950's mint set years.
WL Estimate of a reasonable market price: $1,500 - $2,000. (a bit of a bump for flashy green, which is very popular)
1957-D This is another one I owned. It was NGC MS67RB originally then later PCGS MS67RB. It later graded MS67RB. This is yet another RB/BN tweener. However it's very flashy both sides. I bought it for around $600 years ago and sold it to Robec for around $500. After regrading at 67BN, it gets a sizeable price bump.
WL Estimate of a reasonable market price: $1,300 - $1,800.
1916 This is the 2nd 1916 to make this grade. I always felt like this one was a bit odd looking, but Andy S' who I trust completely told me its def NT and beautiful. I would need to see it in hand to make a better judgement. It's clearly not as nice as the first 1916 (coin #8) so I would drop the price a bit from those levels.
WL Estimate of a reasonable market price: $4,000 to $6,000
1912 I love this one! Gorgeous. PCGS punted on the price guide with nothing listed, however it did list a 67RB at $5000, so I wlll estimte that if PCGS did list a price it would be around $4000 maybe. However I would probably go 3x from there in terms of market value, just based on the great eye appeal.
WL Estimate of a reasonable market price: $10,000 to $15,000
1911-S Jeez, talk about a rarity. This is a semi key date/mint. To combine that with a top pop grade and the eye appeal. This is a definition of a Monster. I was trying to do a statistical match of the SVDB which had a 5.5x jump between 66BN and 67BN. The 11S 66BN is listed at $2,600 ... so if I did a 5.5x pop of that ... i get a pcgs guide of around $14.500. This actually matches very closely to what this coin was bought for in August 2020 (around $15,000). Since the owner told me he's been getting offers between 20k and 30k, I will have to defer to that info!
WL Estimate of a reasonable market price: $20,000 to $30,000
1957-D. This is the 4th 1957-d to make this grade. Another pretty example. I would have to go ballpark with the other 1957-Ds on this list.
WL Estimate of a reasonable market price: $1,300 - $1,800.
1909 Well this is the earliest MS67BN! First year issue. 1909 plain is much tougher than the more heavily saved VDB. The owner told me he was offered $4k for it, so I will defer to that information!
WL Estimate of a reasonable market price: $3,000 - $4,000.
In any case, this just an opinion. so dont yell at me! Feel free to post your own estimates and reasons. It's a fun game. Stlll the bottom line is something is worth what someone else will pay. so the skies the limit.
THANKS FOR YOUR EFFORTS AND GREAT ATTITUDE.
And no, I wasn’t yelling at you.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Great job OP! Now I am only valuing my coin at twice your estimate! 😝
Wondercoin
P.S. edited to add...
I’m now kind of curious what the other (30) toned coins look like that Lauren passed on when she selected the (3) coins that she did 8 1/2 years ago. I have not seen the other coins in at least 9 years now!
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
@wondercoin said:
Great job OP! Now I am only valuing my coin at twice your estimate! 😝
Wondercoin
P.S. edited to add...
I’m now kind of curious what the other (30) toned coins look like that Lauren passed on when she selected the (3) coins that she did 8 1/2 years ago. I have not seen the other coins in at least 9 years now!
I thought some of the previously estimated prices looked too high. But that didn’t and doesn’t really matter, because it was OPINIONS which had been provided.
It sounds to me as If the person who messaged WingedLiberty1957 had a vested interest in such coins and pressured him to edit his post. I believe that it would have been more honorable and informative for him to have posted his opinions and basis for them, instead.
The person who messaged WingedLiberty1957 is involved in selling a few of these coins. I guess it doesn’t look good when the estimated value is 500-750 and the price the new buyer paid is 3-4 times that. The guy who messaged him is known for his aggressive and pressuring tactics along with other fun tactics.
I thought some of the previously estimated prices looked too high. But that didn’t and doesn’t really matter, because it was OPINIONS which had been provided.
It sounds to me as If the person who messaged WingedLiberty1957 had a vested interest in such coins and pressured him to edit his post. I believe that it would have been more honorable and informative for him to have posted his opinions and basis for them, instead.
The person who messaged WingedLiberty1957 is involved in selling a few of these coins. I guess it doesn’t look good when the estimated value is 500-750 and the price the new buyer paid is 3-4 times that. The guy who messaged him is known for his aggressive and pressuring tactics along with other fun tactics.
Thank you. That’s a shame.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Numbers 9,10, and 14 have the added distinction of the die breaks in the date. Clog 9 or 5 as we used to call them. Common for that year. A very impressive group of cents.
Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
WingedLiberty1957 I enjoyed reading this post and it's amazing how things have evolved in both the toned lincoln arena and the brown lincoln arena since I started paying close attention around 2005.
Now with a population in the 300's for 66BN, it's fun to look back on a time when I owned 60% or so of the PCGS MS66BN population at or around 2012. And then there was the time PCGS granted me 8 MS66BN grades in one submission which brought the total population up to about 60 from 52. My how we've left that in the dust.
You've done such a nice job with this post I don't have a lot to add but I do have a thing or two to say, and a couple questions.
My strong opinion is that the 1916D is the finest known toned lincoln on the planet. It would not bother me to see that coin in an MS69BN holder and I think if someone like Andy were to send that coin in repeatedly we'd at least get it to 68BN. I haven't held all the 67BN's but I have held enough of them, and enough monster lincolns that I can say it just has a presence that few other coins of any denomination have in hand. A couple of the other 67BN lincolns approach it (1916 for one) but it stands alone with the possible exception now of the 1911S, which I haven't held.
With regard to pricing of the coins. I think you did a rather nice job encapsulating what the prices of coins were a year or two ago. But I think what you might have caught flack for, and didn't adjust for, is the runaway pricing that the top color lincolns, and the top pop BN lincolns have obtained in the time since you sold your collection. It's been awesome to watch. And while you meant no harm, and likely no harm was done, many do consider you to have authority on this topic and I can see a person becoming concerned to see low valuations. This would be especially true if a person just sold coins above the estimates provided. The worry being that a collector my feel they've overbought. A concern we've all shared at times. So I'm sorry I missed your valuations but I also want to recognize your sensitivity to the subject since you've removed your estimates.
Question: Looking back, how much do you attribute the extremely strong and growing prices of the brown lincolns to the decision PCGS (BJ) made to award BN designated coins a bonus of 3 points in the toned registry?
Question: When are you getting back in the game???
CopperColor, you were definitely the first person i know of that really got into toned Lincolns. Didn't your buying of them start way back in the 1990's?
Yes, I think I remember many ago when the total 66BN population was around 80 or so and I do remember you owning at least 60% of them. That was an amazing feat at the time. Boy your memory of when that number was only 52 is something. So we've gone from Lincoln MS66BN pops around 50 to nearly 400 in 10 years.
I totally agree with you about the 1916-D. That is a gorgeous best. I wouldn't have an issue with that in a 69BN holder, but lets get it to 68BN first. Amazingly that coin sold in an open auction for around $2900 back in 2008 -- that was a steal.
I agree about the "presence" these coins have. Although some of that might be our love of the Lincoln Cent series in general. Not all collectors share that love. I have owned 3 of these 67BN coins (#2, #8, #10) and they definitely have a magic. My favorite of the three I owned was the 1916 (#8 on the list).
I hear you about the recent run-away pricing and I have my own thoughts on that which I dont want to share publicly -- but certainly it's fun to watch something like that happen. Ultimately any sort of valuation one might place on a coin is an opinion only. Something is worth what someone else is willing to pay, and who's to say what that might be,
Well, I do have to take credit for the revamped toned Lincoln and Indian registries which I worked with B.J.Searles at PCGS to modify starting in 2016. It look a lot of lobbying on my part for a few years -- a lot of long well-crafted proposals and a ton of persistence. I put in a ton of hours on that push. Before that massive change in the scoring in the toned registries (where BN lincolns are now given a 3 point bonus) the toned registries were dominated by the RD collectors, who already had their own playground. Yes, I am sure that registry change had a huge impact on the BN Lincoln market. There are many more collectors of those now.
On your question of when I will be getting back into the game. Right now my answer is never. Although I still love this series and the toned aspect. And still love tracking these coins and gawking at photos and seeing newly made beauties. I think the set i put together on a budget (so to speak) is one of the most eye-appealing Lincoln sets ever assembled. It's not the highest graded, although I did enjoy the #1 rank for 2 years, I think from top to bottom (from 1909 to 1958) it was one of the most consistently beautiful sets going. In any case, for a number of various reasons I decided to let my set dissolve and let some other new collectors enjoy my coins in their own sets. After all, all of us are just "renters" of coins, so I wanted to share the joy. I am still proud of what I put together though!
@WingedLiberty1957 said:
CopperColor, you were def the first person i know of thta really got into toned Lincolns. Didn't your buying of them start way back in the 1990's?
Yes, I think I remember many ago when the total 66BN population was around 80 or so and I do remember you owning at least 60% of them. That was an amazing feat at the time. Boy your memory of when that number was only 52 is something. Yes, we gone from pops around 50 to nearly 400 in 10 years.
I totally agree with you about the 1916-D. That is a gorgeous best. I wouldnt have an issue with that in a 69BN holder, but lets get it to 68BN first. Amazingly that coin sold in an open auction for around $2900 back in 2008 -- that was a steal.
I agree about the "presence" these coins have. Although some of that might be our love of the Lincoln Cent series in general. Not all collectors share that love. I have owned 3 of these 67BN coins (#2, #8, #10) and they definitely have a magic. My favorite of the three I owned was the 1916 (#8 on the list).
I hear you about the recent run-away pricing and I have my own thoughts on that which I dont want to share publicly -- but certainly it's fun to watch something like that happen. Ultimately any sort of valuation one might place on a coin is an opinion only. Something is worth what someone else is willing to pay, and who's to say what that might be,
Well, I do have to take credit for the revamped toned Lincoln and Indian registries which I worked with B.J.Searles at PCGS to modify starting in 2016. It look a lot of lobbying on my part for a few years -- a lot of long well-crafted proposals and a ton of persistence. I probably put in an excess of 300 hours on that push. Before that massive change in the scoring in the toned registries (where BN lincolns are now given a 3 point bonus) the toned registries were dominated by the RD collectors, who already had their own playground. Yes, I am sure that registry change had a huge impact on the BN Lincoln market. There are many more collectors of those now.
On your question of when I will be getting back into the game. Right now my answer is never. Although I still love this series and the toned aspect. And still love tracking these coins and gawking at photos and seeing newly made beauties. I think the set i put together on a budget (so to speak) is one of the most eye-appealing Lincoln sets ever assembled. It's not the highest graded, although I did enjoy the #1 rank for 2 years, I think from top to bottom (from 1909 to 1958) it was one of the most consistently beautiful sets going. In any case, for a number of various reasons I decided to let my set dissolve and let some other new collectors enjoy my coins in their own sets. After all, all of us are just "renters" of coins, so I wanted to share the joy. I am still proud of what I put together though!
What grade is your 41D?
this would look good in your set.
AlanSki, the 1941-D you asked about is a stunner. It graded MS67RB. Robec owned this one first, then he sold it to me, then when I dissolved my set I sold it back to him (its original home). It's always been one of my favorite Lincolns! I used to call it Creme Brulee. I could stare at this photo for hours.
One of my favorite all time Lincolns was an MS66BN 1945 Lincoln owned by CopperColor. I always thought it was the most beautiful toned Lincoln I have ever seen. Number 1 on my list in terms of pure eye appeal and monster color. Front to back its a gem. This is one that If I owned, I would be trying to upgrade to MS67BN. The toning was "envelope toning" and the person that CC bought it from could trace it back decades, I think it was originally put away by that guys father. CC might be able to shed more light.
Another monster owned by CopperColor was a gem 1917-D, which just barely missed out on this group of MS67BN's. This graded MS66+BN. I always loved the look of this one. Gorgeous. Another coin that might eventually upgrade to MS67BN.
Heres one of @WingedLiberty1957 former coins that sat solidly in his set until he decided to part with it. I managed to get a plus to the grade but the back just missed the grade along with other small marks. Nonetheless, its one of the nicest lincolns in my set and I was happy to acquire it.
Well, I do have to take credit for the revamped toned Lincoln and Indian registries which I worked with B.J.Searles at PCGS to modify starting in 2016. It look a lot of lobbying on my part for a few years -- a lot of long well-crafted proposals and a ton of persistence. I probably put in an excess of 300 hours on that push. Before that massive change in the scoring in the toned registries (where BN lincolns are now given a 3 point bonus) the toned registries were dominated by the RD collectors, who already had their own playground. Yes, I am sure that registry change had a huge impact on the BN Lincoln market. There are many more collectors of those now.
I would be very curious to understand the rationale that went on with you and PCGS to ultimately determine the bonus point system that was instituted. My understanding of the registry is that BN coins receive a 3 pt bonus, RD coins receive a -3 pts, while RB coins are not scored. 300 hours must have entailed much analysis. Please share.
Some refer to overgraded slabs as Coffins. I like to think of them as Happy Coins.
My push with PCGS was for a sightly different scoring system in the toned registries than where things ended up.
Previous to 2016, the scoring system in the toned registries was identical to the regular registries, which meant many of the leaders in the toned registries were identical to the leaders in the regular registries (the big-name heavy RD collectors). So one would see the same names (the big RD guys) at the top of both of those registries.
So my main push was to knock down sets that contained all untoned RD's in the toned registries (since RD coins already had a playground of their own in the regular registries).
My main thrust was basically only wanting to penalize red's (RD's) -- and let BN's and RB's score relatively higher. My initial proposal was to have the latter two score the same or at least very close. My thoughts on this were that RB's are almost as rare as BN's and the toning on RB's can in some cases be even more beautiful that that found on BN coins. I wanted to see the top sets in the "toned" registry to contain all (or mostly all) BN and RB coins -- and few if any RD's.
My initial suggestion to PCGS was a bonus on both BN and RB of +2 and a penalty on RD of -2. Or alternatively any sort of RD penalty scoring.
B.J. Searles at PCGS was the first person that I got to actually acknowledge my constant lobbying (I used to send proposals to PCGS every few months for a few years (you know the squeaky wheel and all that!)) and she begin working with some of my ideas to address this and she was the one that actually came up with the -3, 0, +3 bonus on RD, RB, and BN respectively. We were emailing back and forth pretty intensely for about a month in 2016 as things were being adjusted and finalized.
To date, I still don't love the final adopted bonus scoring system, it's not perfect, but it was a huge improvement. I still think that RB should be closer to BN in terms of a bonus, perhaps -3 on RD ... +2 on RB and +3 on BN.
In any case this was not quantitatively derived but more qualitative. I think what BJ was doing at the final stages was trying different bonus and penalty numbers in the toned registry and seeing how the scores of existing sets changed. So she could see things dynamically shift as she adjusted the scoring equation.
But in any case, I was proud of myself for actually getting a big lumbering company like PCGS (a company not that great at listening to suggestions from members) to actually bend to my suggestions eventually and improve on something.
This new bonus scoring system certainly did change the marketplace for BN coins and we've seen a steady climb in high grade BN prices in the marketplace since 2016, when this change was implemented.
If one did want an empirically derived system just based on the populations to "even things out" a bit, one might suggest a bonus system of -1, 0, +1 for RD, RB, and BN respectively since you can see a strong correlation with that type of system in the pop reports. (See below). If you note that the populations for 66BN, 67RB, and 68RD all sort of have similar max's -- however that adjustment just makes things "even".
if you wanted to really push BN's up, you would need to kick things a bit more to -2, 0, +2 or thereabouts. However the "collector" in me didn't want to separate the bonus between BN's and RB's very far (or very much at all) since the toning on RB's can be so exquisite -- so that's where my final suggestion of -2, +2, +2 came from.
In any case, when B.J. finally settled on the -3, 0, +3 system, I was just happy to see things change for the better and did not want to make any more noise about it. (You know ,"quit while you are ahead" philosophy). So that's where things landed in the Summer of 2016. It was a long hard fight to get there!
Why not simply have a registry set for brown coins, a registry set for brown and RB coins and a registry set for RB coins? No fuss over what get penalized and what doesn’t get penalized. Just three separate sets where red coins can not be entered in any of these 3 sets? Just saying.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Wondercoin, there are so many different ways to handle this. I would be open to anything, your suggestion is interesting, but good luck trying to get more changes into the pcgs millworks. I feel fortunate just to have gotten this one change implemented. The one downside to your suggestion is BN's are so rare in high grades, it would be very difficult to put together a full set of wheatbacks in all high grade BN's (I think 1 or 2 have (or at least are very close) though). In any case some of the most pleasing sets visually are those sets that mix high grade rainbow toned BN's and RB's together (like my digital coinboard set posted above). JMHO
There shouldn't be a color designation to begin with. There is already a TPG built-in bias to assign a higher numerical grade to coins that appear RD as opposed to RB or BN. And by BN, that includes chocolate brown BN or rainbow toned BN, doesn't matter. The bias has lessened over the past couple of years as market grading takes further hold.
Winged Liberty's original idea of an all inclusive set to penalize RD more and RB less makes more sense than what PCGS adopted. I wouldv'e based bonus points off the average grade for an MS coin graded in RD, RB, and BN. That is, the overall average grade for a MS coin graded RD is approximately 65.5. For MS RB it is 64.0, and for BN it is 63.5. You can glean that from the pop charts above. Thus, RB gets a +1.5 bonus, and BN gets a +2.0 bonus.
Some refer to overgraded slabs as Coffins. I like to think of them as Happy Coins.
@Ronyahski said:
There shouldn't be a color designation to begin with. There is already a TPG built-in bias to assign a higher numerical grade to coins that appear RD as opposed to RB or BN. And by BN, that includes chocolate brown BN or rainbow toned BN, doesn't matter. The bias has lessened over the past couple of years as market grading takes further hold.
Winged Liberty's original idea of an all inclusive set to penalize RD more and RB less makes more sense than what PCGS adopted. I wouldv'e based bonus points off the average grade for an MS coin graded in RD, RB, and BN. That is, the overall average grade for a MS coin graded RD is approximately 65.5. For MS RB it is 64.0, and for BN it is 63.5. You can glean that from the pop charts above. Thus, RB gets a +1.5 bonus, and BN gets a +2.0 bonus.
Those numbers seem just about perfect to me. My toned Lincoln collection is mostly BN for the early dates and mostly RB after about 1927. Some of the coins could easily be graded either way as is the case for a lot of toned cents. Of course, having a BN-only registry and a BN/RB-only would work too.
Of course, I’m not hung up on the points, as with most toned collectors I care about the color more than the grade.
@wondercoin said:
Why not simply have a registry set for brown coins, a registry set for brown and RB coins and a registry set for RB coins? No fuss over what get penalized and what doesn’t get penalized. Just three separate sets where red coins can not be entered in any of these 3 sets? Just saying.
Wondercoin
Just out of curiosity how many collectors do you estimate that have a full slabbed collection of BN only coins? My guess would be less than five likely less than three. I really doubt there is anyone that has all, if any, of the 1970's (and forward) dates/mm's all in slabs with the BN designation . Granted that I am not in the market for slabbed BN 1970's Lincolns so its possible that there are many more than I think. The same goes for only RB, I would guess that the vast majority of Lincoln collectors sets look somewhat close to mine. Lots of BN and RB for the early dates and mostly red after 1930ish.
As I'm not plastic driven I don't really mess with the PCGS registry much so I have no skin in the game but making sets that require all the coins to be of one color designation for each color is catering to a very very small group of collectors. I think the system that @Ronyahski proposed a couple of posts up is the perfect solution without adding a bunch of redundant sets.
Here is the info you asked for ... (about how many collectors have a full set of BN only coins in the Wheatbacks)
LincolnCentMan is currently ranked #1, however his set is private. The last time his set was public, earlier this year, he had 134 BN's, 3 RB's, and 3 Steel in the 140 slots.
Abes Coloring Book ranked #2 (retired) has 127 BN's, 10 RB's, and 3 Steel in the 140 slots.
AvidHiker who is ranked #3 has 119 BN's, 18 RB's, and 3 Steel in the 140 slots of the Wheatbacked Set
Terry's Coins of Color ranked #4 has 125 BN's, 12 RB's, and 3 Steel in the 140 slots.
So as far as I know ... NO pcgs registry participant has a wheatie lincoln set with all BN's (minus the 3 Steels) -- at least amongst the top ranked sets.
@coinbuf said:
Just out of curiosity how many collectors do you estimate that have a full slabbed collection of BN only coins? My guess would be less than five likely less than three. I really doubt there is anyone that has all, if any, of the 1970's (and forward) dates/mm's all in slabs with the BN designation . Granted that I am not in the market for slabbed BN 1970's Lincolns so its possible that there are many more than I think. The same goes for only RB, I would guess that the vast majority of Lincoln collectors sets look somewhat close to mine. Lots of BN and RB for the early dates and mostly red after 1930ish.
The only toned MS Lincoln Registry stops at 1958 with the Wheats. So far, BN and RB examples dated 1959 and beyond have to fight it out with RD in a subservient roll.
@WingedLiberty1957 After I completed my collection of IHC PR toned coins a few years ago, I found your collection of toned Lincolns to be very spectacular. You were my inspiration to extend my toned Indian cent PR collection into the Lincoln cents, which I first did with MPL's. And then I decided to complete the collection up to 1958, the last of the wheat cents. And after employing the registry set system to keep track of my collection, I had to start collecting toned Lincolns 1959 and on. I now need only two or three more PR coins to complete from 1859 to present with toned proofs.
Obviously, quality of PR coins is much greater than MS coins so there are many more PR toned coins graded 67BN. Toned coins with mirrors that exhibit watery colors when twirled in the light will always be much more spectacular to the eye than than business strikes which have no such properties. I have always been amazed at collector preference for business strikes which have much less eye appeal.
That being said, you have established a market and interest in toned coins that were not appreciated before. I still see major dealers that market really poor looking RD coins and have no great RB and BN coins. And the TPG's undergrade RB and BN coins as can be seen from the pop reports. At least I do not recall from the ANA Standard, a coin should be degraded (technically) for the state of toning on copper surfaces. FWIW, I have never submitted an RD IHC PR that was not graded .91 Questionable cColor. But I have never submitted a toned IHC PR that was graded .91. BN and RB is the market standard for coins over 100 years old. And I think there are very few RD large cents.
Thanks you for your efforts........we hope you stay involved in numimatics as you have great insight.
@Raybo said:
Oldish copper should be brown...... period (IMHO)! It's the nature of the metallurgy.
Far too simplistic. Copper (bronze in coin) is too reactive and unpredictable to many natural forces to conclude that it should be brown. Just look at the OP's collection.
Some refer to overgraded slabs as Coffins. I like to think of them as Happy Coins.
This is a great thread and great effort from wingedliberty1957!
From reading the comments of people who have actually made these coins, I get the feeling that it would take more than allowing a 67RB to continue to tone. It sounds like you’d have to let a 68 RB continue to tone and get lucky to end up with a 67BN.
OldIndianNutKase, Great post on toned proofs! Post a link to your toned Indian Proof registry set. I'd like to gawk, is everything photographed?
I almost completed a toned Lincoln Proof Set myself a few years back. That was really fun to put together. The only coin missing from my set at the time was the 1909 VDB Matte Proof which was just too costly for my meager budget. However on my coinboard image, I placed a (wishlist) VDB using a coin that I actually considered buying for a few minutes, but the $40k price was just too much for me to overcome. The proofs, with their mirrored surfaces, really explode of the page when toned. All of these coins (in my digital coinboard below) are resized PCGS TrueView photos and all graded with PCGS, even the late date ones.
@WingedLiberty1957 said:
OldIndianNutKase, Great post on toned proofs! Post a link to your toned Indian Proof registry set. I'd like to gawk, is everything photographed?
I almost completed a toned Lincoln Proof Set myself a few years back. That was really fun to put together. The only coin missing from my set at the time was the 1909 VDB Matte Proof which was just too costly for my meager budget. However on my coinboard image, I placed a (wishlist) VDB using a coin that I actually considered buying for a few minutes, but the $40k price was just too much for me to overcome. The proofs, with their mirrored surfaces, really explode of the page when toned. All of these coins (in my digital coinboard below) graded with PCGS amazingly enough, even the late ones.
@WingedLiberty1957 said:
OldIndianNutKase, Great post on toned proofs! Post a link to your toned Indian Proof registry set. I'd like to gawk, is everything photographed?
I almost completed a toned Lincoln Proof Set myself a few years back. That was really fun to put together. The only coin missing from my set at the time was the 1909 VDB Matte Proof which was just too costly for my meager budget. However on my coinboard image, I placed a (wishlist) VDB using a coin that I actually considered buying for a few minutes, but the $40k price was just too much for me to overcome. The proofs, with their mirrored surfaces, really explode of the page when toned. All of these coins (in my digital coinboard below) graded with PCGS amazingly enough, even the late ones.
IHC Basic Proofs (and toned) Paha Sapa Indians
Lincoln MPL toned Centennial Cents
Lincoln toned PR deiceman
In BN PR 67 seems to be the Unicorn grade with the exception of 1 IHC PR68BN and a few 67+BN. This seems to be much like MS coins. I think that PCGS downgrades BN and RB cents just because they are toned. The stats seem to support that. This seems to be PCGS predudice that is not supported by ANA grading standard. But BN grades in 67 are scarce.
Great thread. @WingedLiberty1957@wondercoin - ParadimeCoins bought and owned the pop 1 1909-S VDB 1C MS67 BN PCGS CAC. This coin was raw prior to it being graded. There is no true view, but having seen this in hand I can say had it not been a s-vdb this would have had a shot of being graded finer. It is cac certified. Post auction ParadimeCoins sold it to someone who then resold to its current owner around $30K i believe early 2017. Prior to the auction there was no price guide and the price guide was based on my purchase and it came out of the blue and we just had to own it. This coin could have easily sold for much less, but I believe the price guide conservative today. ps mitch the 1956-d 1c is stunning! hope to see you soon. shannon
I put away cool mint set toned 1948-1958 cents beginning back in 1982. Probably through around 2005. I am excited to see what Lauren passed up when she selected that 56-D and 2 other coins from the near 3 dozen coin pile. In another place, I set aside cool rainbow toned cents I found in 1968-1971 proof sets over that same roughly 23 year period. Some amazing color coins in there as well.
Let’s grab dinner one night next week Shannon and talk coins!
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
@SSR said:
Great thread. @WingedLiberty1957@wondercoin - ParadimeCoins bought and owned the pop 1 1909-S VDB 1C MS67 BN PCGS CAC. This coin was raw prior to it being graded. There is no true view, but having seen this in hand I can say had it not been a s-vdb this would have had a shot of being graded finer. It is cac certified. Post auction ParadimeCoins sold it to someone who then resold to its current owner in the $30K+ i believe early 2017.
This is further proof that you have to take the RB an BN price guides with a grain of salt, as well as RB and BN grades for that matter. There is an ongoing paradigm value shift towards toned copper coins. The price guides do not, nor can they realistically under the current grading structure, take into account the value inherent in sought after and attractively toned coins.
The 1909-S VDB MS67BN, Pop 1/0, is price guided at $21k, while its most recent sale is $30k. Thus, the price guides likely have it undervalued.
To reinforce the point. I own the 1909-S VDB MS67RB, Pop 1/0. It is a very attractively toned coin. The price guide is currently at $50k. I bought this coin several years ago for $55k, Currently, I have unsolicited offers on this coin for $65k and $70k. Thus, one can confidently conclude that the price guide undervalues the coin.
Compare the two values above to the price guide for an 1909-S VDB MS67RD at $65k. Whilst, the latest and highest price at auction for one of these coins is $55k. Dig deeper and view the 15 coins that are graded MS67RD and you might come to realize that auction results don't support the RD price guide values, and appreciate the RB and BN specimens moreso.
Some refer to overgraded slabs as Coffins. I like to think of them as Happy Coins.
i agree with you Ronyahski. In general, I find the untoned red (RD) Lincoln PCGS Guide prices in high grades to be too high, sometimes as much as 25% to 50% too high, esp where the RD population in that lofty grade is high. Meanwhile if a coin has gorgeous toning and NT colors along with a high grade, and these usually fall in the RB and even more so the BN category -- these coins are listed way too low in the PCGS Price Guide as much as 2x to in some cases 10x or more too low (the multiplication factors are higher for low priced coins). One of PCGS's main issues IMHO is how they got locked decades ago into this paradigm of RD > RB > BN, which you see in their PCGS guide prices. This is a case of PCGS being stunningly out-of-step with the real-world coin market.
So it's been 6 months since my last post on this thread. When I last posted there were only 15 MS67BN Wheatback Lincolns known. Fast forward 6 months and there are now 22, with 2 of the previous 67BN's getting upgrades to 67+BN. Here is an update of the side by side comparisons and the dates they were certified.
Here are the two previous MS67BN's that are now upgraded to MS67+BN. These correspond to coins #2 and #6 in the list above. Both are green CAC stickered at the higher grade. These two were submitted by member GrumPig, who was also instrumental on getting many of these new seven 67BN's certified.
Comments
WingedLiberty1957- thanks for the full explanation. Look, even in the case of my 56-D Cent that started this all off... if I was to ever offer out the coin, I would add something to the base value for it being the very first 67BN Cent PCGS ever awarded that grade to (and a big bonus for Lauren). Of course, I could ask any premium I wanted for my coin and no one has to ever pay it! Lol. So, while I thought your personal estimate of my coin was low, it was not offensive in any way. And, quite possibly the proper valuation for the coin, emotions and attachments aside. And, of course, like so many others with these 67BN graded coins, I believe my coin (graded 8 1/2 years ago one time through) is a sure 67+, shot 68 today.
So, if you want to make it interesting, why not have your personal estimate for each coin (as you did) and then the owner’s personal estimate underneath that. Now, wouldn’t that be fun! At a minimum, it will show how much the owners love their coins (or how greedy they are!). I’ll start it off if you want - your estimate was $1,500-$2,000 for my coin. Owner’s estimate $7,500+ (shot 68 and first one every graded). Finally graded 67BN after how many hundreds of thousands of submissions- I forgot what you told me at the time back in 2012.
Wondercoin
Ownership adds a point and apparently a dollar or two.
I thought some of the previously estimated prices looked too high. But that didn’t and doesn’t really matter, because it was OPINIONS which had been provided.
It sounds to me as If the person who messaged WingedLiberty1957 had a vested interest in such coins and pressured him to edit his post. I believe that it would have been more honorable and informative for him to have posted his opinions and basis for them, instead.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Mark... gorgeous 1958 Franklin 50C - $120,000.00+ price realized.
My lovely toned super High grade 1956-D Cent- $7,500. Why not! 😂
Wondercoin
WonderCoins and MFeld, this does sound like fun! I'll give it a whirl. However based on new info recently acquired. I think I might modify some of my earlier numbers on rough valuation.
Please note everyone, this is just my stupid dumb opinion so dont rip into me too much. Ask 100 people and you'll get 100 different opinions. Some will say these are all just common coins worth a few cents, others will say they are the cat's meow and worth much more than what I think.
1956-D I agree with you WonderCoins, this one is prob deserving of a bonus for being the 1st known MS67BN. That's history for you! Plus added points that its the only 1956-D. There are already four 67BN 1957-D's so that's bound to knock things down a bit for that date/mint combo. One other bonus for this one is I absolutely love the look of this, it's my favorite toner in terms of eye appeal front to back from the late 1950's mint set years (where there are 5 67BN's). I also love the fact that we have a eye-witness for the history of this, that it was popped out of a cardboard mint set and it's owned by the same guy that popped it out. I love it when there is absolutely no doubt of a coin being NT and you can trace the lineage all the way back. I kind of hope you never sell this one, as it has such a cool story with it.
WL Estimate of a reasonable market price: $3,000 - $4,000.
(However we all know the drill, something is worth what someone else is willing to pay, so I dont really have an issue with your $7500+ value)
1957-D This is harder for me as I actually was the one to make this coin into a 67BN and owned it for nearly 7 years. Funny for me rather than overvaluing and/or overgrading my own coins, I tend to undervalue them for some reason. I always feel like others have better stuff. Maybe it's the grass is always greener syndrome. Plus knowing that NGC graded it RB, I always felt like it was a RB/BN tweener. I think if I cracked this out and sent it back into PCGS, it could come back as low as 66 or 66+ and could come back as an RB. so I feel like I kind of got lucky with this one. As far as I know that coin traded around a bit in late 2019 and early 2020 in the $1000 to $1500 range. So maybe I will increase my estimate a bit.
WL Estimate of a reasonable market price: $1,300 - $1,800.
1916-D Of all the coins on this list, this is my favorite, the best technically, and IMHO the one most deserving of our first MS68BN. Jeez, it looks like a Matte Proof with those dimples in the field. So maybe someday this will be upgraded and reach that lofty MS68BN pinnacle. PCGS actually lists this one in their price guide 1916-D MS67BN at $10,000. However who knows how much that would pop if it were to ever be regraded MS68BN, Based on the jump in the RD prices for 1918 and 1919 between 67 and 68 (where the price guide jumped the price 10x), I have to wonder if an MS68BN 1916-D might jump the price a bit more conservative 5x between those 2 grades, that would take the price guide of an MS68BN to $50,000. Possible? Maybe IDK.
WL Estimate of a reasonable market price at MS67BN: $25,000 to $30,000 (price is bumped up due to the upgrade potential)
1909 VDB This is really hard to evaluate without a professional out-of-the-slab TV photo. It actually doesnt look like an MS67BN based on these photos, I might have peaked out at MS66+BN . Still the PCGS price guide lists this at $21,000 and it sold in auction for a bit over $20,000. So I think thats a pretty good starting point. Late news, based on late breaking info from CUForum member SSR I upped my earlier posted market price estimate.
WL Estimate of a reasonable market price at MS67BN: $30,000+.
1937-D JMHO, but I never loved the looks of this one. I know it sold for $1500 a few years ago. Still the color is nice. I think i would keep this in a rough range where is sold a few years ago
WL Estimate of a reasonable market price: $1,500 - $1,800.
1936-D I remember very well when this came up for auction on the GreatCollections website. Even tho I am a lover of high grade BN's I didnt bid on it. It just wasnt flashy enough. Still it did sell for a very reasonable price in the $500's.
WL Estimate of a reasonable market price: $700 - $1,000.
1936 This is the phantom MIA coin. I have no idea what it looks like so who knows.
It's impossible to put a price on this not knowing what i looks like, but I would say any 67BN slab should garner at least $500 even if the coin is ugly.
WL Estimate of a reasonable market price: $500 to who knows (sight unseen).
1916 This is a gorgeous beast. I hunted for this one for over 7 years and it finally turned up in Andy S's hands. I bought it for $5000 just to say I owned it for a while, however it was really out of my league in terms of a price. After a few months I had Andy sell this for me and I think he sold it between $6k and $7k. I might add a bit to that value just based on a bit more time going by and there being so many more colorfully toned BN lincoln collectors today
WL Estimate of a reasonable market price: $7,000 to $10,000
1957-D This was the 2nd 1957-D graded. The green color is outrageous tho, could be the best obverse of all the 1957-D's but I never particularly liked the reverse. This is another BN/RB tweener, which is kind of common in the late 1950's mint set years.
WL Estimate of a reasonable market price: $1,500 - $2,000. (a bit of a bump for flashy green, which is very popular)
1957-D This is another one I owned. It was NGC MS67RB originally, then later PCGS MS67RB. Finally graded MS67BN. This is yet another RB/BN tweener. However it's very flashy both sides. I bought it for around $600 years ago and sold it to Robec for around $500. After regrading at 67BN, it gets a sizeable price bump.
WL Estimate of a reasonable market price: $1,300 - $1,800.
1916 This is the 2nd 1916 to make this grade. I always felt like this one was a bit unusual looking, but Andy S. who I trust completely told me its def NT and beautiful. I would need to see it in hand to make a better judgement. JMHO but I dont think it's as nice as the first 1916 (coin #8) so I would drop the price a bit from those levels.
WL Estimate of a reasonable market price: $4,000 to $6,000
1912 I love this one! Gorgeous. PCGS punted on the price guide with nothing listed, however it did list a 67RB at $5000, so I wlll estimte that if PCGS did list a price it would be around $4000 maybe since PCGS always knocks down the price of BN's under RB's. However I would probably go 3x from there in terms of market value, just based on the great eye appeal and the early date.
WL Estimate of a reasonable market price: $10,000 to $15,000
1911-S Boy, talk about a rarity. This is a semi-key date/mint. To combine that with a top pop grade and the eye appeal. This is a definition of a Monster. I was trying to do a statistical match of the SVDB which had a 5.5x jump between 66BN and 67BN. The 11S 66BN is listed at $2,600 ... so if I did a 5.5x pop of that ... i get a pcgs guide of around $14.500. This actually matches very closely to what this coin was bought for in August 2020 (around $15,000). Since the owner told me he's been getting offers between 20k and 30k, I will have to defer to that info!
WL Estimate of a reasonable market price: $20,000 to $30,000
1957-D. This is the 4th 1957-d to make this grade. Another pretty example. I would have to go ballpark with the other 1957-Ds on this list.
WL Estimate of a reasonable market price: $1,300 - $1,800.
1909 Well this is the earliest MS67BN! First year issue. 1909 plain is much tougher than the more heavily saved VDB. The owner told me he was offered $4k for it, so I will defer to that information!
WL Estimate of a reasonable market price: $3,000 - $4,000.
In any case, this just an opinion. so dont yell at me! Feel free to post your own estimates and reasons. It's a fun game. Stlll the bottom line is something is worth what someone else will pay, so the sky is the limit.
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THANKS FOR YOUR EFFORTS AND GREAT ATTITUDE.
And no, I wasn’t yelling at you.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Great job OP! Now I am only valuing my coin at twice your estimate! 😝
Wondercoin
P.S. edited to add...
I’m now kind of curious what the other (30) toned coins look like that Lauren passed on when she selected the (3) coins that she did 8 1/2 years ago. I have not seen the other coins in at least 9 years now!
Awesome post. Even better looking Lincolns!
BHNC #248 … 108 and counting.
you should just submit the entire batch!
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The person who messaged WingedLiberty1957 is involved in selling a few of these coins. I guess it doesn’t look good when the estimated value is 500-750 and the price the new buyer paid is 3-4 times that. The guy who messaged him is known for his aggressive and pressuring tactics along with other fun tactics.
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Thank you. That’s a shame.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Numbers 9,10, and 14 have the added distinction of the die breaks in the date. Clog 9 or 5 as we used to call them. Common for that year. A very impressive group of cents.
WingedLiberty1957 I enjoyed reading this post and it's amazing how things have evolved in both the toned lincoln arena and the brown lincoln arena since I started paying close attention around 2005.
Now with a population in the 300's for 66BN, it's fun to look back on a time when I owned 60% or so of the PCGS MS66BN population at or around 2012. And then there was the time PCGS granted me 8 MS66BN grades in one submission which brought the total population up to about 60 from 52. My how we've left that in the dust.
You've done such a nice job with this post I don't have a lot to add but I do have a thing or two to say, and a couple questions.
My strong opinion is that the 1916D is the finest known toned lincoln on the planet. It would not bother me to see that coin in an MS69BN holder and I think if someone like Andy were to send that coin in repeatedly we'd at least get it to 68BN. I haven't held all the 67BN's but I have held enough of them, and enough monster lincolns that I can say it just has a presence that few other coins of any denomination have in hand. A couple of the other 67BN lincolns approach it (1916 for one) but it stands alone with the possible exception now of the 1911S, which I haven't held.
With regard to pricing of the coins. I think you did a rather nice job encapsulating what the prices of coins were a year or two ago. But I think what you might have caught flack for, and didn't adjust for, is the runaway pricing that the top color lincolns, and the top pop BN lincolns have obtained in the time since you sold your collection. It's been awesome to watch. And while you meant no harm, and likely no harm was done, many do consider you to have authority on this topic and I can see a person becoming concerned to see low valuations. This would be especially true if a person just sold coins above the estimates provided. The worry being that a collector my feel they've overbought. A concern we've all shared at times. So I'm sorry I missed your valuations but I also want to recognize your sensitivity to the subject since you've removed your estimates.
Question: Looking back, how much do you attribute the extremely strong and growing prices of the brown lincolns to the decision PCGS (BJ) made to award BN designated coins a bonus of 3 points in the toned registry?
Question: When are you getting back in the game???
CopperColor, you were definitely the first person i know of that really got into toned Lincolns. Didn't your buying of them start way back in the 1990's?
Yes, I think I remember many ago when the total 66BN population was around 80 or so and I do remember you owning at least 60% of them. That was an amazing feat at the time. Boy your memory of when that number was only 52 is something. So we've gone from Lincoln MS66BN pops around 50 to nearly 400 in 10 years.
I totally agree with you about the 1916-D. That is a gorgeous best. I wouldn't have an issue with that in a 69BN holder, but lets get it to 68BN first. Amazingly that coin sold in an open auction for around $2900 back in 2008 -- that was a steal.
I agree about the "presence" these coins have. Although some of that might be our love of the Lincoln Cent series in general. Not all collectors share that love. I have owned 3 of these 67BN coins (#2, #8, #10) and they definitely have a magic. My favorite of the three I owned was the 1916 (#8 on the list).
I hear you about the recent run-away pricing and I have my own thoughts on that which I dont want to share publicly -- but certainly it's fun to watch something like that happen. Ultimately any sort of valuation one might place on a coin is an opinion only. Something is worth what someone else is willing to pay, and who's to say what that might be,
Well, I do have to take credit for the revamped toned Lincoln and Indian registries which I worked with B.J.Searles at PCGS to modify starting in 2016. It look a lot of lobbying on my part for a few years -- a lot of long well-crafted proposals and a ton of persistence. I put in a ton of hours on that push. Before that massive change in the scoring in the toned registries (where BN lincolns are now given a 3 point bonus) the toned registries were dominated by the RD collectors, who already had their own playground. Yes, I am sure that registry change had a huge impact on the BN Lincoln market. There are many more collectors of those now.
On your question of when I will be getting back into the game. Right now my answer is never. Although I still love this series and the toned aspect. And still love tracking these coins and gawking at photos and seeing newly made beauties. I think the set i put together on a budget (so to speak) is one of the most eye-appealing Lincoln sets ever assembled. It's not the highest graded, although I did enjoy the #1 rank for 2 years, I think from top to bottom (from 1909 to 1958) it was one of the most consistently beautiful sets going. In any case, for a number of various reasons I decided to let my set dissolve and let some other new collectors enjoy my coins in their own sets. After all, all of us are just "renters" of coins, so I wanted to share the joy. I am still proud of what I put together though!
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What grade is your 41D?
this would look good in your set.
AlanSki, the 1941-D you asked about is a stunner. It graded MS67RB. Robec owned this one first, then he sold it to me, then when I dissolved my set I sold it back to him (its original home). It's always been one of my favorite Lincolns! I used to call it Creme Brulee. I could stare at this photo for hours.
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One of my favorite all time Lincolns was an MS66BN 1945 Lincoln owned by CopperColor. I always thought it was the most beautiful toned Lincoln I have ever seen. Number 1 on my list in terms of pure eye appeal and monster color. Front to back its a gem. This is one that If I owned, I would be trying to upgrade to MS67BN. The toning was "envelope toning" and the person that CC bought it from could trace it back decades, I think it was originally put away by that guys father. CC might be able to shed more light.
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Another monster owned by CopperColor was a gem 1917-D, which just barely missed out on this group of MS67BN's. This graded MS66+BN. I always loved the look of this one. Gorgeous. Another coin that might eventually upgrade to MS67BN.
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Gorgeous coins @WingedLiberty1957 ! I love your dedication to this series.
These coins really are magnificent works of art, by VDB and Mother Nature!
Heres one of @WingedLiberty1957 former coins that sat solidly in his set until he decided to part with it. I managed to get a plus to the grade but the back just missed the grade along with other small marks. Nonetheless, its one of the nicest lincolns in my set and I was happy to acquire it.
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I would be very curious to understand the rationale that went on with you and PCGS to ultimately determine the bonus point system that was instituted. My understanding of the registry is that BN coins receive a 3 pt bonus, RD coins receive a -3 pts, while RB coins are not scored. 300 hours must have entailed much analysis. Please share.
Hello Ronyahski,
My push with PCGS was for a sightly different scoring system in the toned registries than where things ended up.
Previous to 2016, the scoring system in the toned registries was identical to the regular registries, which meant many of the leaders in the toned registries were identical to the leaders in the regular registries (the big-name heavy RD collectors). So one would see the same names (the big RD guys) at the top of both of those registries.
So my main push was to knock down sets that contained all untoned RD's in the toned registries (since RD coins already had a playground of their own in the regular registries).
My main thrust was basically only wanting to penalize red's (RD's) -- and let BN's and RB's score relatively higher. My initial proposal was to have the latter two score the same or at least very close. My thoughts on this were that RB's are almost as rare as BN's and the toning on RB's can in some cases be even more beautiful that that found on BN coins. I wanted to see the top sets in the "toned" registry to contain all (or mostly all) BN and RB coins -- and few if any RD's.
My initial suggestion to PCGS was a bonus on both BN and RB of +2 and a penalty on RD of -2. Or alternatively any sort of RD penalty scoring.
B.J. Searles at PCGS was the first person that I got to actually acknowledge my constant lobbying (I used to send proposals to PCGS every few months for a few years (you know the squeaky wheel and all that!)) and she begin working with some of my ideas to address this and she was the one that actually came up with the -3, 0, +3 bonus on RD, RB, and BN respectively. We were emailing back and forth pretty intensely for about a month in 2016 as things were being adjusted and finalized.
To date, I still don't love the final adopted bonus scoring system, it's not perfect, but it was a huge improvement. I still think that RB should be closer to BN in terms of a bonus, perhaps -3 on RD ... +2 on RB and +3 on BN.
In any case this was not quantitatively derived but more qualitative. I think what BJ was doing at the final stages was trying different bonus and penalty numbers in the toned registry and seeing how the scores of existing sets changed. So she could see things dynamically shift as she adjusted the scoring equation.
But in any case, I was proud of myself for actually getting a big lumbering company like PCGS (a company not that great at listening to suggestions from members) to actually bend to my suggestions eventually and improve on something.
This new bonus scoring system certainly did change the marketplace for BN coins and we've seen a steady climb in high grade BN prices in the marketplace since 2016, when this change was implemented.
If one did want an empirically derived system just based on the populations to "even things out" a bit, one might suggest a bonus system of -1, 0, +1 for RD, RB, and BN respectively since you can see a strong correlation with that type of system in the pop reports. (See below). If you note that the populations for 66BN, 67RB, and 68RD all sort of have similar max's -- however that adjustment just makes things "even".
if you wanted to really push BN's up, you would need to kick things a bit more to -2, 0, +2 or thereabouts. However the "collector" in me didn't want to separate the bonus between BN's and RB's very far (or very much at all) since the toning on RB's can be so exquisite -- so that's where my final suggestion of -2, +2, +2 came from.
In any case, when B.J. finally settled on the -3, 0, +3 system, I was just happy to see things change for the better and did not want to make any more noise about it. (You know ,"quit while you are ahead" philosophy). So that's where things landed in the Summer of 2016. It was a long hard fight to get there!
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The surfaces on that OP 16-D are amazing. So pleasing
Why not simply have a registry set for brown coins, a registry set for brown and RB coins and a registry set for RB coins? No fuss over what get penalized and what doesn’t get penalized. Just three separate sets where red coins can not be entered in any of these 3 sets? Just saying.
Wondercoin
Wondercoin, there are so many different ways to handle this. I would be open to anything, your suggestion is interesting, but good luck trying to get more changes into the pcgs millworks. I feel fortunate just to have gotten this one change implemented. The one downside to your suggestion is BN's are so rare in high grades, it would be very difficult to put together a full set of wheatbacks in all high grade BN's (I think 1 or 2 have (or at least are very close) though). In any case some of the most pleasing sets visually are those sets that mix high grade rainbow toned BN's and RB's together (like my digital coinboard set posted above). JMHO
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@WingedLiberty1957 here is the cert number for the missing coin.
https://www.pcgs.com/cert/83775373
If there are others you are looking for I may be able to find them.
Professional Numismatist. "It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
Too bad there's no associated image. The price guide indicates $50, which seems impossibly low for such a condition rarity.
how'd you find that? i'm curious.
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Just dumb luck.
Professional Numismatist. "It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
There shouldn't be a color designation to begin with. There is already a TPG built-in bias to assign a higher numerical grade to coins that appear RD as opposed to RB or BN. And by BN, that includes chocolate brown BN or rainbow toned BN, doesn't matter. The bias has lessened over the past couple of years as market grading takes further hold.
Winged Liberty's original idea of an all inclusive set to penalize RD more and RB less makes more sense than what PCGS adopted. I wouldv'e based bonus points off the average grade for an MS coin graded in RD, RB, and BN. That is, the overall average grade for a MS coin graded RD is approximately 65.5. For MS RB it is 64.0, and for BN it is 63.5. You can glean that from the pop charts above. Thus, RB gets a +1.5 bonus, and BN gets a +2.0 bonus.
It's a complex topic for sure.
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Those numbers seem just about perfect to me. My toned Lincoln collection is mostly BN for the early dates and mostly RB after about 1927. Some of the coins could easily be graded either way as is the case for a lot of toned cents. Of course, having a BN-only registry and a BN/RB-only would work too.
Of course, I’m not hung up on the points, as with most toned collectors I care about the color more than the grade.
Just out of curiosity how many collectors do you estimate that have a full slabbed collection of BN only coins? My guess would be less than five likely less than three. I really doubt there is anyone that has all, if any, of the 1970's (and forward) dates/mm's all in slabs with the BN designation . Granted that I am not in the market for slabbed BN 1970's Lincolns so its possible that there are many more than I think. The same goes for only RB, I would guess that the vast majority of Lincoln collectors sets look somewhat close to mine. Lots of BN and RB for the early dates and mostly red after 1930ish.
As I'm not plastic driven I don't really mess with the PCGS registry much so I have no skin in the game but making sets that require all the coins to be of one color designation for each color is catering to a very very small group of collectors. I think the system that @Ronyahski proposed a couple of posts up is the perfect solution without adding a bunch of redundant sets.
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Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
CoinBuf,
Here is the info you asked for ... (about how many collectors have a full set of BN only coins in the Wheatbacks)
LincolnCentMan is currently ranked #1, however his set is private. The last time his set was public, earlier this year, he had 134 BN's, 3 RB's, and 3 Steel in the 140 slots.
Abes Coloring Book ranked #2 (retired) has 127 BN's, 10 RB's, and 3 Steel in the 140 slots.
AvidHiker who is ranked #3 has 119 BN's, 18 RB's, and 3 Steel in the 140 slots of the Wheatbacked Set
Terry's Coins of Color ranked #4 has 125 BN's, 12 RB's, and 3 Steel in the 140 slots.
So as far as I know ... NO pcgs registry participant has a wheatie lincoln set with all BN's (minus the 3 Steels) -- at least amongst the top ranked sets.
You can view the top toned Registry Sets for the Wheaties here:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/half-cents/lincoln-cents-specialty-sets/lincoln-cents-toned-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1909-1958/2903
Of course there are probably millions of circulated (whitman folder style) sets that are all BN (minus the steels) tho they are unlikely to be graded.
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The only toned MS Lincoln Registry stops at 1958 with the Wheats. So far, BN and RB examples dated 1959 and beyond have to fight it out with RD in a subservient roll.
- Bob -
"Central Valley" Roosevelts
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
I looked at my Dansco album of Lincolns and took photos of a 1916 cent and a 1932 cent that have colorful toning.
@WingedLiberty1957 After I completed my collection of IHC PR toned coins a few years ago, I found your collection of toned Lincolns to be very spectacular. You were my inspiration to extend my toned Indian cent PR collection into the Lincoln cents, which I first did with MPL's. And then I decided to complete the collection up to 1958, the last of the wheat cents. And after employing the registry set system to keep track of my collection, I had to start collecting toned Lincolns 1959 and on. I now need only two or three more PR coins to complete from 1859 to present with toned proofs.
Obviously, quality of PR coins is much greater than MS coins so there are many more PR toned coins graded 67BN. Toned coins with mirrors that exhibit watery colors when twirled in the light will always be much more spectacular to the eye than than business strikes which have no such properties. I have always been amazed at collector preference for business strikes which have much less eye appeal.
That being said, you have established a market and interest in toned coins that were not appreciated before. I still see major dealers that market really poor looking RD coins and have no great RB and BN coins. And the TPG's undergrade RB and BN coins as can be seen from the pop reports. At least I do not recall from the ANA Standard, a coin should be degraded (technically) for the state of toning on copper surfaces. FWIW, I have never submitted an RD IHC PR that was not graded .91 Questionable cColor. But I have never submitted a toned IHC PR that was graded .91. BN and RB is the market standard for coins over 100 years old. And I think there are very few RD large cents.
Thanks you for your efforts........we hope you stay involved in numimatics as you have great insight.
OINK
Oldish copper should be brown...... period (IMHO)! It's the nature of the metallurgy.
Far too simplistic. Copper (bronze in coin) is too reactive and unpredictable to many natural forces to conclude that it should be brown. Just look at the OP's collection.
This is a great thread and great effort from wingedliberty1957!
From reading the comments of people who have actually made these coins, I get the feeling that it would take more than allowing a 67RB to continue to tone. It sounds like you’d have to let a 68 RB continue to tone and get lucky to end up with a 67BN.
OldIndianNutKase, Great post on toned proofs! Post a link to your toned Indian Proof registry set. I'd like to gawk, is everything photographed?
I almost completed a toned Lincoln Proof Set myself a few years back. That was really fun to put together. The only coin missing from my set at the time was the 1909 VDB Matte Proof which was just too costly for my meager budget. However on my coinboard image, I placed a (wishlist) VDB using a coin that I actually considered buying for a few minutes, but the $40k price was just too much for me to overcome. The proofs, with their mirrored surfaces, really explode of the page when toned. All of these coins (in my digital coinboard below) are resized PCGS TrueView photos and all graded with PCGS, even the late date ones.
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Great accomplishment! I would love to see photos too!
What do you think is the "unicorn grade" for this series?
I've thought about this for some coins as well. What I've come up with is:
That is an amazing set as well!
What do yuo consider the unicorn grade to be for:
@WingedLiberty and @Zoins,
My registry sets are:
IHC Basic Proofs (and toned) Paha Sapa Indians
Lincoln MPL toned Centennial Cents
Lincoln toned PR deiceman
In BN PR 67 seems to be the Unicorn grade with the exception of 1 IHC PR68BN and a few 67+BN. This seems to be much like MS coins. I think that PCGS downgrades BN and RB cents just because they are toned. The stats seem to support that. This seems to be PCGS predudice that is not supported by ANA grading standard. But BN grades in 67 are scarce.
OINK
Great thread. @WingedLiberty1957 @wondercoin - ParadimeCoins bought and owned the pop 1 1909-S VDB 1C MS67 BN PCGS CAC. This coin was raw prior to it being graded. There is no true view, but having seen this in hand I can say had it not been a s-vdb this would have had a shot of being graded finer. It is cac certified. Post auction ParadimeCoins sold it to someone who then resold to its current owner around $30K i believe early 2017. Prior to the auction there was no price guide and the price guide was based on my purchase and it came out of the blue and we just had to own it. This coin could have easily sold for much less, but I believe the price guide conservative today. ps mitch the 1956-d 1c is stunning! hope to see you soon. shannon
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SSR / Shannon... Great story about the svdb!
I put away cool mint set toned 1948-1958 cents beginning back in 1982. Probably through around 2005. I am excited to see what Lauren passed up when she selected that 56-D and 2 other coins from the near 3 dozen coin pile. In another place, I set aside cool rainbow toned cents I found in 1968-1971 proof sets over that same roughly 23 year period. Some amazing color coins in there as well.
Let’s grab dinner one night next week Shannon and talk coins!
Wondercoin
This is further proof that you have to take the RB an BN price guides with a grain of salt, as well as RB and BN grades for that matter. There is an ongoing paradigm value shift towards toned copper coins. The price guides do not, nor can they realistically under the current grading structure, take into account the value inherent in sought after and attractively toned coins.
The 1909-S VDB MS67BN, Pop 1/0, is price guided at $21k, while its most recent sale is $30k. Thus, the price guides likely have it undervalued.
To reinforce the point. I own the 1909-S VDB MS67RB, Pop 1/0. It is a very attractively toned coin. The price guide is currently at $50k. I bought this coin several years ago for $55k, Currently, I have unsolicited offers on this coin for $65k and $70k. Thus, one can confidently conclude that the price guide undervalues the coin.
Compare the two values above to the price guide for an 1909-S VDB MS67RD at $65k. Whilst, the latest and highest price at auction for one of these coins is $55k. Dig deeper and view the 15 coins that are graded MS67RD and you might come to realize that auction results don't support the RD price guide values, and appreciate the RB and BN specimens moreso.
i agree with you Ronyahski. In general, I find the untoned red (RD) Lincoln PCGS Guide prices in high grades to be too high, sometimes as much as 25% to 50% too high, esp where the RD population in that lofty grade is high. Meanwhile if a coin has gorgeous toning and NT colors along with a high grade, and these usually fall in the RB and even more so the BN category -- these coins are listed way too low in the PCGS Price Guide as much as 2x to in some cases 10x or more too low (the multiplication factors are higher for low priced coins). One of PCGS's main issues IMHO is how they got locked decades ago into this paradigm of RD > RB > BN, which you see in their PCGS guide prices. This is a case of PCGS being stunningly out-of-step with the real-world coin market.
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So it's been 6 months since my last post on this thread. When I last posted there were only 15 MS67BN Wheatback Lincolns known. Fast forward 6 months and there are now 22, with 2 of the previous 67BN's getting upgrades to 67+BN. Here is an update of the side by side comparisons and the dates they were certified.
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Here are the two previous MS67BN's that are now upgraded to MS67+BN. These correspond to coins #2 and #6 in the list above. Both are green CAC stickered at the higher grade. These two were submitted by member GrumPig, who was also instrumental on getting many of these new seven 67BN's certified.
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