When your dealer told you "You should buy this piece", did you listen?
Weiss
Posts: 9,939 ✭✭✭✭✭
Two old school regulars and I were talking last week about the nice pieces we got from our local dealer before he passed away.
He'd been a dealer for nearly 40 years (I'd know him since I was a kid). And like most dealers, he offered low end stuff, he offered amazing stuff, and he offered stuff that was somewhere in between. And you were always welcome to make an offer, though it didn't mean he'd accept it.
But the three of us all came to the realization that there were times when he said to each of us "This is a great piece. You should buy it." It wasn't often, but when he did and we were smart enough to listen, we were all glad we did.
Two pieces in particular that he told me I should buy happened to coincide when I was absolutely bloated with cash.
One was the coin I just posted in @TPGS 's Peace Dollar thread. It'd had been one of a group of maybe 5 no line fatty slabs that came in together an hour or so before I got to the shop that day a decade ago. He remembered that I was a huge fan of 1921 peace dollars and he said "You need to buy this". Now I was on the hunt for generic low premium classic gold, and "higher end" purely numismatic pieces were just not even on my radar. But something made me agree, reluctantly I have to admit, and I paid the $1000 for it, plus two others from the group--a 1904 5 rouble in 65 and an 1876 Netherlands 10 Guilden in 65. Both of those pieces were slabbed in huge numbers in those first generation slabs can still be found without much of a premium. But gorgeous 1921 peace dollars in first generation PCGS or NGC slabs were easy targets for crack-outs, and have become very hard to find. Like the coin below, I sent it to CAC thinking it might get a gold bean (which to this day has never been awarded on an MS65 or higher 1921 peace).
The other time was the same scenario, maybe a year later: I had more money than brains and I was on the hunt for generic gold. He knew what I was looking for and said "Yeah, yeah. But I've got something else you should buy".
It'd come in with a group of other pieces, in a cloth or leather bag, all raw. Typical "Grandma's old coins" stuff--a few Indian cents, seated dimes and a barber half, IIRC. And this piece. I knew nothing about gold dollars, and I don't know that I'd ever had one in my ~30 years of collecting. But he told me it was special. "Branch mint", he said, and I nodded knowingly even though I had only the vaguest idea of what that was supposed to mean. And once again, I paid his $1000 price.
I sent it off ATS some time later to get it slabbed, more for consistency than any other reason. And as luck would have it, something kept me from so much as even dunking her in acetone before sending it in.
And this is how she returned to me. She, too, went on that trip to Mr. Albenese to get his opinion:
So thank you, Gary, for making me pry open my wallet on a few occasions and reach for some really good pieces.
Did you listen when your dealer told you to reach for a better piece?
--Severian the Lame
Comments
As for those coins, it was very sound advice. Nice color on the Charlotte dollar.
If you tire of either, give me a call.
There are maybe two dealers to whom I’d pay attention if they told me to buy something. With one of them it took me a while to trust enough to listen, but once I did it resulted in some of the most fun and most lucrative collecting I’ve ever done. But, even then, I wouldn’t buy it if I didn’t understand it. Outstanding luck landing Charlotte gold in that condition.
Great thread! I must say I’ve never had the privilege to be “bloated with cash”!
I don’t buy often enough to have such a dealer relationship that you’ve had. I would have to have a high degree of trust in the dealer and also truly like the coin.
If you’re going to draw a line regarding not buying something that’s highly recommended - and there’s certainly nothing wrong with that - passing on a coin when you don’t understand it, is a very good place to draw that line.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Great coins and great thread.
My dealer would never suggested that I “should buy this Peace”, but there were specific coins that were recommended to me, and I never regretted buying them.
the last time a dealer told me that, I did not listen. And boy do I regret not buying it.
Great Peace and story!
That 21 peace is simply outstanding
Four years ago, at the Ft Lauderdale FUN show, I saw a bust half at @RichUrich's table. Rich was elsewhere. Dick Graham was tending his table.
I really liked the coin but it was priced much higher than price guides. I balked. Dick looked me in the eye and said, "Lance, you should buy this coin". I struggled but I did.
I am probably underwater on it but I never regretted the purchase. To me this is what the hobby is about. Buying what you love...never anxious over whether you paid too much. Always enjoying the coin each time you looked at it.
Lance.
Some of my better pieces were certainly presented in the light of "this is a great example, and [just about] as good as you'll get unless one or more criteria in your search change" and I have not regretted any of those purchases. But the real key is that this works when you have a relationship with a dealer such that they understand what you like and why you like it. Where that's really important is the dealer knowing when to push or back away.
Now, if you strongly push back against buying a coin, a dealer shouldn't harass you to buy it (of course), but if there is an opportunity for education, this is it. If you're expecting more, perhaps this is when you'll be told your expectations are unrealistic. If it's a little more than you want to pay, this is where you might be told that the example blows most others out of the water, and if there's any chance it can be afforded, it's worth it. At the same time, if a dealer gives the "you should buy this" advice and you come up with a good reason not to, that can help them learn when and what to suggest in the future.
I passed on what looked like he problem free though heavily circulated lazy deuce for under just under a grand. In retrospect the dealer was trying to do me a huge favor. He was very sick and just about to retire.
Never had a dealer say that to me, if one did, I would just assume that he was just trying to sell me something overpriced that no one else wanted.
Congratulation your coins are beautiful.
I think it really depends on the dealer. A few come to mind that I can ask questions about coins they own and sometimes don’t own. I can get an honest opinion on the coin and sometimes they say it’s not for me. I value those dealers and they never try to push a sale even if it’s costing them money. It’s also good to ask friends or fellow collectors just for another opinion.
On the other hand there’s dealers that will try to talk you out of buying coins that they don’t own just to try to get a sale on there coins 😎
So I would ask several sources, but as always trust your gut.
If it were a dealer you’d done business with for years and he’d never said that, I would think you’d give him the benefit of the doubt if he did finally say it. It sounds like you don’t have any good relationships with dealers. Either that, or you don’t trust people, even if they’ve earned it.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
That 21 Peace has a fantastic strike. Nice coin
I have never had any kind of relationship with a dealer....Moved around far too much for that to develop. Coin shows were a major source of coins for me.... ebay in the early days too. Other collectors also. Very few coin shop purchases. Cheers, RickO
I had a dealer like that
A forum member over ten years ago (might have even been on Cointalk) mentioned an eBay listing that was ending that very same day for an early-S Mint Morgan in an NGC 67 holder. The pictures were terrible but for some reason we both had a good feeling about some type of rainbow color that the coin had in hand that the photos didn't show. I won the auction for around $800 and consigned the coin through GreatToning on eBay a few months later. Sold for over $2400 with better photos and the larger following that GreatToning has on eBay.
I don't mean for this to be a quick flip story but more so about taking a chance on a coin recommended by a fellow forum member.
My PCGS Set Registry Profile
Lance, I absolutely LOVE that coin!!! I'd enjoy looking at that one, also!!!
Rocking my "shiny-object-syndrome"!!!
I've never had a dealer who has earned my trust make such a recommendation, and my trust must be earned.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
The 1921 Peace ranks as one of the best I've ever seen.
Pete
An example of just a plain old fashioned good deal that dealer made me.
He sold this to me raw as a high end XF. My records indicate I paid $1310 for it on 06-03-2010. Gold was about $1235 at the time, so +/- 5% above melt. You can see from the cert # that it went ATS in the same batch that included the Charlotte gold dollar. Once again I was just slabbing it for consistency hoping his XF+ would translate to a 58.
FWIW: The 1914-P Saint is a key date with a mintage of just 95,250.
It's gone in and out of my box of 20 (currently out) as just a nice example of a $20 Saint:
--Severian the Lame
I haven't done this for coins yet, but I did do it for two works of art and it was a good decision. Probably my best purchase of about 5 from an art gallery.
I have told clients to buy certain coins and I have also told clients not to buy certain coins depending on the client's individual tastes.
Yes, but it all worked out well in the long run.
Wrong - I have good relationships with many dealers. Right - I don't trust people. I can make my own decisions on what I want.
I don't think I could have a good relationship with someone I didn't trust.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I have also told a client not to buy any more of a certain type of error coin he had been hoarding.
He told me that they are rare.
I said you've got ten of them, how rare are they?
I do not think he has bought any more of that type since then.
Sir, if you were stolen from and back-stabbed, as many times as I have been, you wouldn't trust anyone either, not even your dog. Let it go.
I’ve had dealers steer me away from coins and to better examples. Or just say “you don’t want that one” in a way that made me understand I didn’t want that one.
I’ve trusted them enough to believe them in those cases and appreciated the help.
Never got a good enough relationship going to be recommended a coin without asking about it. Might never happen due to location/funds.
I only listen if ive known them for years and of they always had good stuff etc. That line has come out though on some of my toner purchases from back in the day.
Actually, I now recall I was offered 2 medals once. I purchased one but later one realized I should have purchased both!
No. I can make mistakes quite well on my own.
My dealer friends have shown me or brought coins of types and quality that they knew I was looking for, but none have ever given me purchase advice.
I've had a few dealers tell me essentially "this is something I think you would really like..." and most times they were correct.
On the flip side, I have told a few clients that certain coins really fit what they were looking for at the time and might make terrific additions. In general, these pieces have had upfront costs incrementally more than similar grade (though not similar quality) pieces have had and this has historically caused hesitation among some clients. Those who have taken my advice and examined the coin in-hand have universally (if I remember correctly) and happily purchased the coin while those that have declined in-hand examination because of the incremental upfront cost have almost universally come back later on to lament that decision.
Only once did I really go out of my way to have a client purchase a coin that I thought was exactly what he wanted and this was a 19th century piece in EF-AU in a PCGS holder with CAC sticker and it was the epitome of original and attractive. It was offered at a major auction and he had requested me to do lot viewing for him of perhaps two dozen coins. This was the only coin that I thought was a great potential purchase and, indeed, the only coin I told him to buy. The coin had been bid already to perhaps $1,000 while similarly graded pieces with less originality, eye appeal and meat had sold in the $800-$900 realm. His hesitation, due to the extra potential few hundred dollars was obvious, and I told him I would waive the auction lot review fee and pay for shipping out of my own pocket so that the cost of acquisition would be shaved, but in the end he just refused. Later, he contacted me to let me know of his regret on passing on the coin and that his decision was colored by past experiences with others who had done lot viewing for him and who urged him to buy many pieces that he ended up disliking immensely. At that point it was too late, the coin was gone to a new home.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
It's nice to have that perspective, @TomB .
There's something to be said for those dealers who specialize in particular series or genre, where their entire inventory is essentially these pieces. If you're looking for X, go see this guy. That's especially true for online dealers who don't carry the depth and breadth of brick and mortar stores.
John @ CRO and Rick @ Eagle Eye are two that come to mind. And @MFeld in the past (from whom I got my Pan Pac $1 ten years ago!). If it's part of their inventory, you already knew that coin had surpassed their already high bar for originality, scarcity, and appeal.
Zooming in on that Charlotte dollar:
--Severian the Lame
love that C dollar.
No. I've never been told, strongly urged, or highly recommended (or whatever similar language) that I "should" or "want to" buy a certain coin.
Then again, I've also never been a "client" of a coin dealer--
Only a customer.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
I need to know where your dealer is, cuz he can’t grade for poop!
In putting together one of possibly the better collections of pre-decimal Brit copper and silver I often used some well-respected dealers that have remained friends of mine. I have never regretted their advice and assistance even though semi-retired at this point from collecting.
Well, just Love coins, period.
I had a long winded answer but I guess, no, can't say that I have.
Weiss, (love the coins, of course) but also the way you write, and how refreshingly honest the original post is...
AKA Pakasmom
Thank you!
--Severian the Lame
Usually I did, yes.
There are 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who do not.
The dealers I'm working with now, yes, if I had the resources.
In around 1997-8 I bought a roll of silver eagles for 3.99 each from an add in an NRA periodical. I got called several times after that from the firm that I “should” buy various quantities if $10 gold libs, which I didn’t. Those calls were painful for cheap silver.
My local B&M might say something like “you should buy this” but it comes out more like “I have this set aside for you” base on them knowing what I’m into, or get a call to come look at an item, either to buy or evaluate. That, or they just put stuff out and when I ask to see it they say they knew I was gonna like it and let it go from there. Mostly, I’m picky, if I like it it’s not a hard sell and they don’t need to push it off on me to sell it in the end anyway. If it’s fresh and they’re going for full pop retail, then it’s me that has to step up to land it, not them telling me I need to, but I won’t even go there unless I’m 110% positive it’s right for me.