I am not sure who Todd is. And, I am not sure Todd was around (20) years ago when the course of conduct rules began going into effect here. If your integrity is seriously challenged or attacked, you have the right to confront your attackers. In fact, everyone writing on this thread wants the OP to address their points. True? This makes perfect sense... yes? Anyone would want the right to respond to a serious challenge on their integrity. I can assure you this is not “good marketing” for the OP’s trade offer.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
@JimTyler said:
While you’ve been dicken around buy prices from honorable buyers have dropped. Keep it up. What an amateur move.
Actually that just proves my moves are smart.
You say “buy prices have dropped”, and that’s exactly why I did what I did and didn’t conclude the sale because Blu69vette wouldn’t agree to keep his price firm regardless of whether the prices changes.
The last thing I need is for an offer of $500 to turn into a $300 because prices have dropped.
How do you know that? Although no one who posts here regularly would have disbelieved Todd who is known for his honesty and integrity, you just confirmed what he said was true. It's even worse that you are now making excuses rather than owning up to your mistake. And you are projecting your dishonesty onto others.
@JimTyler said:
While you’ve been dicken around buy prices from honorable buyers have dropped. Keep it up. What an amateur move.
Actually that just proves my moves are smart.
You say “buy prices have dropped”, and that’s exactly why I did what I did and didn’t conclude the sale because Blu69vette wouldn’t agree to keep his price firm regardless of whether the prices changes.
The last thing I need is for an offer of $500 to turn into a $300 because prices have dropped.
How do you know that? Although no one who posts here regularly would have disbelieved Todd who is known for his honesty and integrity, you just confirmed what he said was true. It's even worse that you are now making excuses rather than owning up to your mistake. And you are projecting your dishonesty onto others.
Ok so first of all. I don’t even know “Todd”. I’m new to the forums so I don’t know anyone on here. Which means trust is essentially non existent at this point.
Secondly the fact that you think it’s okay to offer someone a price and then change it shows your own dishonest not mine..
Thirdly, that’s exactly the kind of dishonest I was trying to protect myself from as a new member with no one to trust.
I will not apologize for protecting myself. There isn’t a snowball’s chance in hell of me doing that. I will ALWAYS protect myself from being screwed or cheated.
@Gam3rBlake said: Secondly the fact that you think it’s okay to offer someone a price and then change it shows your own dishonest not mine..
There is nothing to suggest he backed out or would have backed out. Don't try to gaslight us. Notably you admit he (and you) agreed to the sale and now claim it wasn't executed because you didn't trust him when it appears that you are the one that broke his word. If you had evidence to the contrary you would have already posted. Your revisionist history will get you nowhere.
Thirdly, that’s exactly the kind of dishonest I was trying to protect myself from as a new member with no one to trust.
Here is what i hope you can takeaway from this. When a deal is made here, whether with me, Wondercoin, Coinflip or many of the others buying in some situations, when you make a deal you no longer need to protect yourself. Once a price is nailed down, that is the price. The buyers here know it may go down and may go up, but it is a numbers game and that is a risk they take. You are locked in, your risk is gone. If the buyer backed out then different situation but that would be real, real rare. You can always post asking for references a buyer, many here will chime in if you do that.
Now the terms of the deal you can control. In your case I offered to pay when you had the coin in hand, before you shipped. Again, lower risk, you were more protected. You can always ask for that in future deals for protection.
So the protection you felt was necessary here you may have thought you needed based on other hobbies or areas you deal in is not necessary here. Here people keep their word, or they wont be a part of many deals.
Here is what i hope you can takeaway from this. When a deal is made here, whether with me, Wondercoin, Coinflip or many of the others buying in some situations, when you make a deal you no longer need to protect yourself. Once a price is nailed down, that is the price. The buyers here know it may go down and may go up, but it is a numbers game and that is a risk they take. You are locked in, your risk is gone. If the buyer backed out then different situation but that would be real, real rare. You can always post asking for references a buyer, many here will chime in if you do that.
Now the terms of the deal you can control. In your case I offered to pay when you had the coin in hand, before you shipped. Again, lower risk, you were more protected. You can always ask for that in future deals for protection.
So the protection you felt was necessary here you may have thought you needed based on other hobbies or areas you deal in is not necessary here. Here people keep their word, or they wont be a part of many deals.
I was just talking to Wondercoin and after careful reflection I still believe it was a misunderstanding. You told me you wanted me to keep it in OGP packaging and I agreed I would do so but I wasn’t agreeing to a final sale at that point.
Now yes I do have other hobbies where people do take advantage of others and because I’m a new member and have no one to trust I was looking out for myself by trying to guarantee that I wouldn’t be taken advantage of.
I mean if I was taken advantage of what could I, as a new member, do about it? Sure I could whine on the forums but that wouldn’t achieve anything and I’d be out hundreds of dollars.
My true intention was to get a message from you saying “Yes I will pay $500 regardless of price changes.” So that at least if something went bad I would have a screenshot for evidence.
People seem to think I should know who is trustworthy and how it all works after only being on here like a week.
I don’t think that is realistic.
However from this experience I have learned and I will know that an offer is an offer and will not change based on fluctuations in price over a few weeks.
That’s all I can do. 🤷🏻♂️
If you still want it at the same price I can go through with the deal but as I expected the prices have gone down so paying $500 now probably wouldn’t make sense.
Either way it was an honest misunderstanding not an intent to deceive or cheat anyone.
@Gam3rBlake said: Secondly the fact that you think it’s okay to offer someone a price and then change it shows your own dishonest not mine..
There is nothing to suggest he backed out or would have backed out. Don't try to gaslight us. Notably you admit he (and you) agreed to the sale and now claim it wasn't executed because you didn't trust him when it appears that you are the one that broke his word. If you had evidence to the contrary you would have already posted. Your revisionist history will get you nowhere.
Thirdly, that’s exactly the kind of dishonest I was trying to protect myself from as a new member with no one to trust.
I didn’t agree to the sale because I was still asking questions about the terms of the sale. All I agreed too was to keep the ASE in it’s OGP because me and him both agreed that’s the best way to keep their value.
Anyway, Mr. Blake is a military Vet (you can see in his responses the “don’t mess with me” bravado). I generally give the benefit of the doubt to Vets. I really do believe the OP has learned a valuable lesson on how business is conducted over here.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
I’ve never heard of a buyer change their price once locked in, but there a too many instances to count of sellers reneging when prices go up. Not saying you did that, but buyers wouldn’t last long if they reneged on their buy price. Both sides take price fluctuation risk.
@Gam3rBlake said: Secondly the fact that you think it’s okay to offer someone a price and then change it shows your own dishonest not mine..
There is nothing to suggest he backed out or would have backed out. Don't try to gaslight us. Notably you admit he (and you) agreed to the sale and now claim it wasn't executed because you didn't trust him when it appears that you are the one that broke his word. If you had evidence to the contrary you would have already posted. Your revisionist history will get you nowhere.
Thirdly, that’s exactly the kind of dishonest I was trying to protect myself from as a new member with no one to trust.
I didn’t agree to the sale because I was still asking questions about the terms of the sale. All I agreed too was to keep the ASE in it’s OGP because me and him both agreed that’s the best way to keep their value.
So yeah, stop putting words in my mouth. Kthx.
The other side has posted the facts (see below). You haven't disputed them and have continued to make excuses. I don't see how any intellectually honest person could have construed it as any other way.
" **After giving you price, I said I would send funds when you got the coin in hand. then you could ship. You said ok works for me, confirmed it had to come in a sealed box and then sent me to order summary to confirm you had it coming.
@Gam3rBlake said: Secondly the fact that you think it’s okay to offer someone a price and then change it shows your own dishonest not mine..
There is nothing to suggest he backed out or would have backed out. Don't try to gaslight us. Notably you admit he (and you) agreed to the sale and now claim it wasn't executed because you didn't trust him when it appears that you are the one that broke his word. If you had evidence to the contrary you would have already posted. Your revisionist history will get you nowhere.
Thirdly, that’s exactly the kind of dishonest I was trying to protect myself from as a new member with no one to trust.
I didn’t agree to the sale because I was still asking questions about the terms of the sale. All I agreed too was to keep the ASE in it’s OGP because me and him both agreed that’s the best way to keep their value.
So yeah, stop putting words in my mouth. Kthx.
The other side has posted the facts (see below). You haven't disputed them and have continued to make excuses. I don't see how any intellectually honest person could have construed it as any other way.
" After giving you price, I said I would send funds when you got the coin in hand. then you could ship. You said ok works for me, confirmed it had to come in a sealed box and then sent me to order summary to confirm you had it coming.
No deal? "
Except the facts weren’t posted.
He said he would send funds when I had coin in hand.
I said that payment method would work for me.
He said he wanted to buy it sealed in it’s OGP packaging.
I agreed that keeping it in it’s OGP packaging would be the best way to sell it.
Then I asked him (if he was paying me when the coin was in hand) if his offer would remain at $500 regardless of any fluctuations in price between then and when the coin was at hand. Because he said that’s when he would pay.
Stop leaving things out and constructing your own narrative of what happened.
@3stars said:
I’ve never heard of a buyer change their price once locked in, but there a too many instances to count of sellers reneging when prices go up. Not saying you did that, but buyers wouldn’t last long if they reneged on their buy price. Both sides take price fluctuation risk.
I didn’t do that. Not once did I even hint at asking him for even one cent more than the $500 he offered.
People keep forgetting I am new to this forum. I don’t know who to trust. I have to assume everyone is suspect in terms of trust.
All I wanted was some sort of confirmation as proof that I would receive the agreed upon $500 regardless of any changes in price. Because if I go to my local coin dealer & offer to buy/sell an ASE the prices are going to change over a couple of weeks due to silver value alone. Not even counting numismatic value. Especially since the V75 ASEs have been all over the place.
Tell me how I could have possibly benefited from what I did? Once again, I never said anything that would make me even a cent more than his original offer.
Nor did I go around posting asking for higher prices. If I did that I could understand anger or a feeling of dishonesty. But I didn’t.
Ask yourself this: If I had nothing to gain why would I have been deceptive or dishonest?
Answer: I wasn’t. It was an honest misunderstanding between a well known forum member and a newbie who just joined the forums and had never sold coins online before trying to protect himself from being ripped off online.
@Gam3rBlake said: Secondly the fact that you think it’s okay to offer someone a price and then change it shows your own dishonest not mine..
There is nothing to suggest he backed out or would have backed out. Don't try to gaslight us. Notably you admit he (and you) agreed to the sale and now claim it wasn't executed because you didn't trust him when it appears that you are the one that broke his word. If you had evidence to the contrary you would have already posted. Your revisionist history will get you nowhere.
Thirdly, that’s exactly the kind of dishonest I was trying to protect myself from as a new member with no one to trust.
I didn’t agree to the sale because I was still asking questions about the terms of the sale. All I agreed too was to keep the ASE in it’s OGP because me and him both agreed that’s the best way to keep their value.
So yeah, stop putting words in my mouth. Kthx.
At the time you started this thread what pending questions were you waiting for an answer on?
@Gam3rBlake said: Secondly the fact that you think it’s okay to offer someone a price and then change it shows your own dishonest not mine..
There is nothing to suggest he backed out or would have backed out. Don't try to gaslight us. Notably you admit he (and you) agreed to the sale and now claim it wasn't executed because you didn't trust him when it appears that you are the one that broke his word. If you had evidence to the contrary you would have already posted. Your revisionist history will get you nowhere.
Thirdly, that’s exactly the kind of dishonest I was trying to protect myself from as a new member with no one to trust.
I didn’t agree to the sale because I was still asking questions about the terms of the sale. All I agreed too was to keep the ASE in it’s OGP because me and him both agreed that’s the best way to keep their value.
So yeah, stop putting words in my mouth. Kthx.
At the time you started this thread what pending questions were you waiting for an answer on?
When I first posted this thread back on November 5th I had just gotten my confirmation from the Mint and showed it to you. At that point prior to accepting your deal this post was meant to be a “last call” for offers in the vain hope that someone would have a cool Greek or Roman coin to trade, or a nice medieval coin.
However around that time is when I realized that the Mint wouldn’t even ship the coin until at least Monday and then with budget shipping it could be another week. So I realized that the price of the coin would likely fluctuate significantly one way or the other before I actually got paid.
After receiving no offers on my “last call” post I decided to go with your offer after seeing if you would agree to pay $500 no matter the price fluctuations between then and when I sent coin. Once I got your confirmation to that I was going to say I accepted your offer and update my old post to “SOLD”.
KEEP IN MIND: From the first message you sent me until now I never once refused your original offer of $500 for the coin. I also never asked you for even one cent more. Nor did I tell you I wouldn’t sell it to you for that $500 offer. All I did was ask you for confirmation that your offer would remain $500 regardless of price fluctuations.
The only purpose of this post was as a last call for offers. Which I never got anyway. So it wouldn’t have changed anything in the first place.
“@wondercoin said:
I really do believe the OP has learned a valuable lesson on how business is conducted over here.
Wondercoin
Judging by his posts apparently not. Some sellers/buyers are simply not worth the trouble. C'est la vie.”
Cameonut2011... Reasonable men will differ. You feel he hasn’t learned a lesson from this. I can understand where you are coming from. The OP’s need to constantly reply (and often aggressively) to every post he believes puts himself in a bad light shouldn’t be confused with whether the OP can be, or is, an honest trading partner. But, obviously the lines get blurred.
You will note that the OP has asked his buyer if he would like the coin at the very same price the two of them were at a few days ago when this fiasco started. That’s a start - right? Admittedly, the coin has corrected downward about $25 or so here over the past few days. I can understand if the buyer declined the OP’s offer (or reoffer) to sell now at the same price. But, when that happens there is arguably “no harm, no foul” here between the two of them.
Whatever the buyer wants to do now is entirely up to him (pass, play or counter). Even though this coin was previously offered to me, I will not buy it, even at mint cost of $90. I will entertain doing business with the OP in the future (and, of course, the buyer), but not on this coin. Good luck to both parties in their future endeavors.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Mint product flipping for dummies:
(1) Prices tend to drop faster than you can negotiate a better deal.
(2) Greed has a cost, and when it involves the BST the cost is more than just dollars.
@derryb said:
Mint product flipping for dummies:
(1) Prices tend to drop faster than you can negotiate a better deal.
(2) Greed has a cost, and when it involves the BST the cost is more than just dollars.
I'd add #3, its often smarter to leave some upside potential for a buyer who is also willing to absorb the risk of the downside, especially when it results in a quick and easy transaction. You'll drive yourself crazy trying to milk every cent out of every transaction.
To the OP, I'd just say that in this hobby, trust goes a LONG way. Especially when it comes to buying or selling, being able to trust buyers to send them coins (whether its a $50 or a $50,000 coin) before payment will make your life easier as both a buyer and a seller. Todd was willing to send payment even BEFORE he received the coin, that speaks to his trust in you, even as a new member. This has turned into a train wreck, and several members are reading and watching. A simple "There was a miscommunication, I will learn from this" would help you out going forward.
@derryb said:
Mint product flipping for dummies:
(1) Prices tend to drop faster than you can negotiate a better deal.
(2) Greed has a cost, and when it involves the BST the cost is more than just dollars.
I'd add #3, its often smarter to leave some upside potential for a buyer who is also willing to absorb the risk of the downside, especially when it results in a quick and easy transaction. You'll drive yourself crazy trying to milk every cent out of every transaction.
To the OP, I'd just say that in this hobby, trust goes a LONG way. Especially when it comes to buying or selling, being able to trust buyers to send them coins (whether its a $50 or a $50,000 coin) before payment will make your life easier as both a buyer and a seller. Todd was willing to send payment even BEFORE he received the coin, that speaks to his trust in you, even as a new member. This has turned into a train wreck, and several members are reading and watching. A simple "There was a miscommunication, I will learn from this" would help you out going forward.
Unfortunately due to me being a new member..others are not reading what I said or willing to listen to my point of view.
For example, you said “A simple ‘There was a miscommunication, I will learn from this’ would help you out going forward.
& Yet I said that long ago but unfortunately once again people decide to listen to one side of the story and then rush down to post a comment without bothering to hear my side of the story.
It’s very sad that the internet has become a place of people desperately looking for others to hate and to spread drama. They love every minute they get to spend bashing on someone and even more so when that person can’t defend themselves or is new or doesn’t have a support system.
Frankly all of that is a far larger problem on this forum than any miscommunication had during buying & selling.
@derryb said:
Mint product flipping for dummies:
(1) Prices tend to drop faster than you can negotiate a better deal.
(2) Greed has a cost, and when it involves the BST the cost is more than just dollars.
Yup exactly! Thank you for pointing this out to people since obviously they aren’t listening to what I said.
@foraiur said:
As said, you should wait till you have your coin. Your description is not how sales here work because what your describing isn't actually a sale.
How is it not a sale?
I’m looking to sell my confirmed V75 ASE IF the dealer agrees to maintain their original offer regardless of the fluctuation of the coin’s price between then and when I send it.
When someone makes an offer on a coin, especially on a new issue like this one, it’s understood that the price might drop (or rise), before delivery. So unless the offer is conditional, which it wasn’t in this case, once the seller accepts, an agreement has been reached.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I have just undergone a similar issue. I had a price locked down with Coinflip where we both confirmed.
Now I will be the first to state, that the coin came in late monday night and due to an extreme workload, I was not able to ship it until 3 days later. I explained this to Coinflip and apologized, however, he decided to reneg on the deal. There was not time stipulation whatsoever. We had a heated discussion regarding the issue but he decided not to honor the deal ( and I plainly stated to him that it was likely that the price was no longer favorable to him). I have sold items that have gone hotter and colder but I always honored my deals.
It is a risk we all take, but when someone confirms a sale it should be solid. If someone needs a time stipulation they are well within their rights to do so, but it should be stated clearly before doing business.
As such, I will no longer be doing business with Coinflip as he does not honor his word plain and simple. I am sure many had good deals with him but I would advise anyone doing business to be cautious as he did not honor his deal as soon as it became unfavorable.
I have discussed this issue with another forum member and I will leave it up to him if he chooses to chime in.
Best Regards,
F117asr
Beware of the flying monkeys! Aerospace Structures Engineer
@derryb said:
As demonstrated there's probably a good reason for buyers and sellers who do not know each other to avoid pre-sales, especially on ebay.
I doubt it.
This was a rare one off.
When newbies can make 5x 10x +++ on a quick flip. All they have to do is ask for refefrences from the dealer and if price was firm . Pretty simple.
All OP had to do was ask Dealer todd for refernces and if price was firm.
OP flip flopped due to GREED and then fibbed about it. jmho
To not advise people not deal with people you don't know is some really retarded capitalism Sir.
Afterall, the PCGS BST was built and works with strangers dealing with stangers. And it still works. The PCGS BST one of the best place in the entire world to sell and buy cool coins.
Have fun with your coins and take the fights outside to the parking lot. Or maybe kiss the BST goodbye.
@derryb said:
As demonstrated there's probably a good reason for buyers and sellers who do not know each other to avoid pre-sales, especially on ebay.
To not advise people not deal with people you don't know is some really retarded capitalism Sir.
Afterall, the PCGS BST was built and works with strangers dealing with stangers. And it still works. The PCGS BST one of the best place in the entire world to sell and buy cool coins.
Have fun with your coins and take the fights outside to the parking lot. Or maybe kiss the BST goodbye.
Have fun with your pre-sales to newbies, I look forward to reading about your parking lot fights with them. When you've been here much longer than just one year, you will understand that dealing with strangers without any buyer or seller protection, even on the BST, involves some risk.
@derryb said:
As demonstrated there's probably a good reason for buyers and sellers who do not know each other to avoid pre-sales, especially on ebay.
To not advise people not deal with people you don't know is some really retarded capitalism Sir.
Afterall, the PCGS BST was built and works with strangers dealing with stangers. And it still works. The PCGS BST one of the best place in the entire world to sell and buy cool coins.
Have fun with your coins and take the fights outside to the parking lot. Or maybe kiss the BST goodbye.
Have fun with your pre-sales to newbies, I look forward to reading about your parking lot fights with them. When you've been here much longer than just one year, you will understand that dealing with strangers without any buyer or seller protection, even on the BST, involves some risk.
@derryb
Parking lot fight was a metaphor man. Keep the drama down on the BST or PCGS will remove your (our) cash cow. I don't fight in parking lots unless I'm attacked. They say those that don't trust can't be trusted. Put your faith and trust in humanity while using lots of common sense. It has worked out great for me. I have yet to have a bad deal.
This is a not ship when you want sit on a coin for 3 days and have the option to ship when its convenient .you have no responsibility ? You're saying we are dishonorable in this deal? We don't want to do business with you and we would not reccommend you or anyone that doesn't take responsibility or is trustworthy to ship a coin like this in a variable market asap., so we are in agreement there why do you ask? Because people are slick willy let me lock it in and sell it at my option if it rises I didn't get it or it canceled etc etc and if it goes down well I'll holler the buyer we had it locked in.This happens alot and we've been doing this for a while and we avoid these sellers. Everytime these go on sale more come out of the woodwork, we buy hundreds of coins and We are tired of being Mr nice guy with sellers taking no responsibility for what they do or shipping coins weeks later when the market has fallen. But miraculously they aren't available when they go up hundreds of dollars in days. Its not personal , its ehat we must do to deal with bad sellers and welcome deals with good trustworthy sellers. We are working 14 hr days morning to night so we are busy as well,,drive by a fedex or usps and throw the coin in a box if thats so inconvenient, dont ship us coins. So seems like you sat on a coin for 3 days in a extremely volatile market and now you're screaming bad bad coinflip when you initially messaged that you were at fault, but now we are bad to deal with? When does it become ok to not ship and it would be the shippers fault? 4 days 5 days 10 days ? 20 days? Never? How about a message like I am sorry I got tied up with life,, I am irresponsible with shipping at a timely manner ,I apologize, may I please ship overnight to compensate , sir? Sure ! No problem please ship!
@F117ASR said:
Now I will be the first to state, that the coin came in late monday night and due to an extreme workload, I was not able to ship it until 3 days later. I explained this to Coinflip and apologized, however, he decided to reneg on the deal. There was not time stipulation whatsoever. We had a heated discussion regarding the issue but he decided not to honor the deal (and I plainly stated to him that it was likely that the price was no longer favorable to him). I have sold items that have gone hotter and colder but I always honored my deals.
It is a risk we all take, but when someone confirms a sale it should be solid. If someone needs a time stipulation they are well within their rights to do so, but it should be stated clearly before doing business.
>
Best Regards,
F117asr
Indeed, things happen, but you read as acting a bit daft. You rush to lock in an excellent price for something you don't have in hand with someone you know is a reseller. Then you wait around 3-4 days to ship the item after you receive it. You've been around. You know how this all works and this isn’t a random collector situation. You doing this is potentially costing the buyer money. If you can't ship an item once you receive it, you should wait to sell it until you can. Not doing so doesn't just cost coinflip...you also take the spot of someone else on this board who could have sold and delivered. And yes, coinflip should add the obvious that sellers who want to lock in a nice gain are expected to deliver once they receive but pretty sure you already knew that.
@JimTyler said:
They need to pull the plug on this guy. Closed last thread he starts up another.
In all fairness, this is the old thread and someone else drug it up from 10 days under. Not the OP's fault. It's now a Highjacked thread under his name.
100% positive transactions with SurfinxHI, bigole, 1madman, collectorcoins, proofmorgan, Luke Marshall, silver pop, golden egg, point five zero,coin22lover, alohagary, blaircountycoin,joebb21
@JimTyler said:
They need to pull the plug on this guy. Closed last thread he starts up another.
In all fairness, this is the old thread and someone else drug it up from 10 days under. Not the OP's fault. It's now a Highjacked thread under his name.
Agree.
is there a coinflip owned or f117asr thread that this could be debated out on instead?
@JimTyler said:
They need to pull the plug on this guy. Closed last thread he starts up another.
In all fairness, this is the old thread and someone else drug it up from 10 days under. Not the OP's fault. It's now a Highjacked thread under his name.
Agree.
is there a coinflip owned or f117asr thread that this could be debated out on instead?
Comments
I am not sure who Todd is. And, I am not sure Todd was around (20) years ago when the course of conduct rules began going into effect here. If your integrity is seriously challenged or attacked, you have the right to confront your attackers. In fact, everyone writing on this thread wants the OP to address their points. True? This makes perfect sense... yes? Anyone would want the right to respond to a serious challenge on their integrity. I can assure you this is not “good marketing” for the OP’s trade offer.
Wondercoin
How do you know that? Although no one who posts here regularly would have disbelieved Todd who is known for his honesty and integrity, you just confirmed what he said was true. It's even worse that you are now making excuses rather than owning up to your mistake. And you are projecting your dishonesty onto others.
+1
Ok so first of all. I don’t even know “Todd”. I’m new to the forums so I don’t know anyone on here. Which means trust is essentially non existent at this point.
Secondly the fact that you think it’s okay to offer someone a price and then change it shows your own dishonest not mine..
Thirdly, that’s exactly the kind of dishonest I was trying to protect myself from as a new member with no one to trust.
I will not apologize for protecting myself. There isn’t a snowball’s chance in hell of me doing that. I will ALWAYS protect myself from being screwed or cheated.
There is nothing to suggest he backed out or would have backed out. Don't try to gaslight us. Notably you admit he (and you) agreed to the sale and now claim it wasn't executed because you didn't trust him when it appears that you are the one that broke his word. If you had evidence to the contrary you would have already posted. Your revisionist history will get you nowhere.
Projection... You've got to love it.
@HeatherBoyd
@BrettPCGS
I am Todd.
Here is what i hope you can takeaway from this. When a deal is made here, whether with me, Wondercoin, Coinflip or many of the others buying in some situations, when you make a deal you no longer need to protect yourself. Once a price is nailed down, that is the price. The buyers here know it may go down and may go up, but it is a numbers game and that is a risk they take. You are locked in, your risk is gone. If the buyer backed out then different situation but that would be real, real rare. You can always post asking for references a buyer, many here will chime in if you do that.
Now the terms of the deal you can control. In your case I offered to pay when you had the coin in hand, before you shipped. Again, lower risk, you were more protected. You can always ask for that in future deals for protection.
So the protection you felt was necessary here you may have thought you needed based on other hobbies or areas you deal in is not necessary here. Here people keep their word, or they wont be a part of many deals.
“I am Todd.”
My apologies. I thought a new guy running these message boards was named Todd too! 😂
Wondercoin
I was just talking to Wondercoin and after careful reflection I still believe it was a misunderstanding. You told me you wanted me to keep it in OGP packaging and I agreed I would do so but I wasn’t agreeing to a final sale at that point.
Now yes I do have other hobbies where people do take advantage of others and because I’m a new member and have no one to trust I was looking out for myself by trying to guarantee that I wouldn’t be taken advantage of.
I mean if I was taken advantage of what could I, as a new member, do about it? Sure I could whine on the forums but that wouldn’t achieve anything and I’d be out hundreds of dollars.
My true intention was to get a message from you saying “Yes I will pay $500 regardless of price changes.” So that at least if something went bad I would have a screenshot for evidence.
People seem to think I should know who is trustworthy and how it all works after only being on here like a week.
I don’t think that is realistic.
However from this experience I have learned and I will know that an offer is an offer and will not change based on fluctuations in price over a few weeks.
That’s all I can do. 🤷🏻♂️
If you still want it at the same price I can go through with the deal but as I expected the prices have gone down so paying $500 now probably wouldn’t make sense.
Either way it was an honest misunderstanding not an intent to deceive or cheat anyone.
“Notably, he (and you) agreed to the sale.”
Stop putting words in my mouth.
I didn’t agree to the sale because I was still asking questions about the terms of the sale. All I agreed too was to keep the ASE in it’s OGP because me and him both agreed that’s the best way to keep their value.
So yeah, stop putting words in my mouth. Kthx.
You can bring a horse to water.... 😆
Anyway, Mr. Blake is a military Vet (you can see in his responses the “don’t mess with me” bravado). I generally give the benefit of the doubt to Vets. I really do believe the OP has learned a valuable lesson on how business is conducted over here.
Wondercoin
I’ve never heard of a buyer change their price once locked in, but there a too many instances to count of sellers reneging when prices go up. Not saying you did that, but buyers wouldn’t last long if they reneged on their buy price. Both sides take price fluctuation risk.
The other side has posted the facts (see below). You haven't disputed them and have continued to make excuses. I don't see how any intellectually honest person could have construed it as any other way.
" **After giving you price, I said I would send funds when you got the coin in hand. then you could ship. You said ok works for me, confirmed it had to come in a sealed box and then sent me to order summary to confirm you had it coming.
No deal?** "
Except the facts weren’t posted.
He said he would send funds when I had coin in hand.
I said that payment method would work for me.
He said he wanted to buy it sealed in it’s OGP packaging.
I agreed that keeping it in it’s OGP packaging would be the best way to sell it.
Then I asked him (if he was paying me when the coin was in hand) if his offer would remain at $500 regardless of any fluctuations in price between then and when the coin was at hand. Because he said that’s when he would pay.
Stop leaving things out and constructing your own narrative of what happened.
I didn’t do that. Not once did I even hint at asking him for even one cent more than the $500 he offered.
People keep forgetting I am new to this forum. I don’t know who to trust. I have to assume everyone is suspect in terms of trust.
All I wanted was some sort of confirmation as proof that I would receive the agreed upon $500 regardless of any changes in price. Because if I go to my local coin dealer & offer to buy/sell an ASE the prices are going to change over a couple of weeks due to silver value alone. Not even counting numismatic value. Especially since the V75 ASEs have been all over the place.
Tell me how I could have possibly benefited from what I did? Once again, I never said anything that would make me even a cent more than his original offer.
Nor did I go around posting asking for higher prices. If I did that I could understand anger or a feeling of dishonesty. But I didn’t.
Ask yourself this: If I had nothing to gain why would I have been deceptive or dishonest?
Answer: I wasn’t. It was an honest misunderstanding between a well known forum member and a newbie who just joined the forums and had never sold coins online before trying to protect himself from being ripped off online.
Judging by his posts apparently not. Some sellers/buyers are simply not worth the trouble. C'est la vie.
At the time you started this thread what pending questions were you waiting for an answer on?
When I first posted this thread back on November 5th I had just gotten my confirmation from the Mint and showed it to you. At that point prior to accepting your deal this post was meant to be a “last call” for offers in the vain hope that someone would have a cool Greek or Roman coin to trade, or a nice medieval coin.
However around that time is when I realized that the Mint wouldn’t even ship the coin until at least Monday and then with budget shipping it could be another week. So I realized that the price of the coin would likely fluctuate significantly one way or the other before I actually got paid.
After receiving no offers on my “last call” post I decided to go with your offer after seeing if you would agree to pay $500 no matter the price fluctuations between then and when I sent coin. Once I got your confirmation to that I was going to say I accepted your offer and update my old post to “SOLD”.
KEEP IN MIND: From the first message you sent me until now I never once refused your original offer of $500 for the coin. I also never asked you for even one cent more. Nor did I tell you I wouldn’t sell it to you for that $500 offer. All I did was ask you for confirmation that your offer would remain $500 regardless of price fluctuations.
The only purpose of this post was as a last call for offers. Which I never got anyway. So it wouldn’t have changed anything in the first place.
“@wondercoin said:
I really do believe the OP has learned a valuable lesson on how business is conducted over here.
Wondercoin
Judging by his posts apparently not. Some sellers/buyers are simply not worth the trouble. C'est la vie.”
Cameonut2011... Reasonable men will differ. You feel he hasn’t learned a lesson from this. I can understand where you are coming from. The OP’s need to constantly reply (and often aggressively) to every post he believes puts himself in a bad light shouldn’t be confused with whether the OP can be, or is, an honest trading partner. But, obviously the lines get blurred.
You will note that the OP has asked his buyer if he would like the coin at the very same price the two of them were at a few days ago when this fiasco started. That’s a start - right? Admittedly, the coin has corrected downward about $25 or so here over the past few days. I can understand if the buyer declined the OP’s offer (or reoffer) to sell now at the same price. But, when that happens there is arguably “no harm, no foul” here between the two of them.
Whatever the buyer wants to do now is entirely up to him (pass, play or counter). Even though this coin was previously offered to me, I will not buy it, even at mint cost of $90. I will entertain doing business with the OP in the future (and, of course, the buyer), but not on this coin. Good luck to both parties in their future endeavors.
Wondercoin
Mint product flipping for dummies:
(1) Prices tend to drop faster than you can negotiate a better deal.
(2) Greed has a cost, and when it involves the BST the cost is more than just dollars.
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
I'd add #3, its often smarter to leave some upside potential for a buyer who is also willing to absorb the risk of the downside, especially when it results in a quick and easy transaction. You'll drive yourself crazy trying to milk every cent out of every transaction.
To the OP, I'd just say that in this hobby, trust goes a LONG way. Especially when it comes to buying or selling, being able to trust buyers to send them coins (whether its a $50 or a $50,000 coin) before payment will make your life easier as both a buyer and a seller. Todd was willing to send payment even BEFORE he received the coin, that speaks to his trust in you, even as a new member. This has turned into a train wreck, and several members are reading and watching. A simple "There was a miscommunication, I will learn from this" would help you out going forward.
Unfortunately due to me being a new member..others are not reading what I said or willing to listen to my point of view.
For example, you said “A simple ‘There was a miscommunication, I will learn from this’ would help you out going forward.
& Yet I said that long ago but unfortunately once again people decide to listen to one side of the story and then rush down to post a comment without bothering to hear my side of the story.
It’s very sad that the internet has become a place of people desperately looking for others to hate and to spread drama. They love every minute they get to spend bashing on someone and even more so when that person can’t defend themselves or is new or doesn’t have a support system.
Frankly all of that is a far larger problem on this forum than any miscommunication had during buying & selling.
Yup exactly! Thank you for pointing this out to people since obviously they aren’t listening to what I said.
Hopefully they’ll listen to you!
My goodness! We are STILL talking about this? Time to move on people🤣😂
When someone makes an offer on a coin, especially on a new issue like this one, it’s understood that the price might drop (or rise), before delivery. So unless the offer is conditional, which it wasn’t in this case, once the seller accepts, an agreement has been reached.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Hello All,
I have just undergone a similar issue. I had a price locked down with Coinflip where we both confirmed.
Now I will be the first to state, that the coin came in late monday night and due to an extreme workload, I was not able to ship it until 3 days later. I explained this to Coinflip and apologized, however, he decided to reneg on the deal. There was not time stipulation whatsoever. We had a heated discussion regarding the issue but he decided not to honor the deal ( and I plainly stated to him that it was likely that the price was no longer favorable to him). I have sold items that have gone hotter and colder but I always honored my deals.
It is a risk we all take, but when someone confirms a sale it should be solid. If someone needs a time stipulation they are well within their rights to do so, but it should be stated clearly before doing business.
As such, I will no longer be doing business with Coinflip as he does not honor his word plain and simple. I am sure many had good deals with him but I would advise anyone doing business to be cautious as he did not honor his deal as soon as it became unfavorable.
I have discussed this issue with another forum member and I will leave it up to him if he chooses to chime in.
Best Regards,
F117asr
Aerospace Structures Engineer
As demonstrated there's probably a good reason for buyers and sellers who do not know each other to avoid pre-sales, especially on ebay.
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
I doubt it.
This was a rare one off.
When newbies can make 5x 10x +++ on a quick flip. All they have to do is ask for refefrences from the dealer and if price was firm . Pretty simple.
All OP had to do was ask Dealer todd for refernces and if price was firm.
OP flip flopped due to GREED and then fibbed about it. jmho
To not advise people not deal with people you don't know is some really retarded capitalism Sir.
Afterall, the PCGS BST was built and works with strangers dealing with stangers. And it still works. The PCGS BST one of the best place in the entire world to sell and buy cool coins.
Have fun with your coins and take the fights outside to the parking lot. Or maybe kiss the BST goodbye.
Have fun with your pre-sales to newbies, I look forward to reading about your parking lot fights with them. When you've been here much longer than just one year, you will understand that dealing with strangers without any buyer or seller protection, even on the BST, involves some risk.
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
@derryb
Parking lot fight was a metaphor man. Keep the drama down on the BST or PCGS will remove your (our) cash cow. I don't fight in parking lots unless I'm attacked. They say those that don't trust can't be trusted. Put your faith and trust in humanity while using lots of common sense. It has worked out great for me. I have yet to have a bad deal.
This is a not ship when you want sit on a coin for 3 days and have the option to ship when its convenient .you have no responsibility ? You're saying we are dishonorable in this deal? We don't want to do business with you and we would not reccommend you or anyone that doesn't take responsibility or is trustworthy to ship a coin like this in a variable market asap., so we are in agreement there why do you ask? Because people are slick willy let me lock it in and sell it at my option if it rises I didn't get it or it canceled etc etc and if it goes down well I'll holler the buyer we had it locked in.This happens alot and we've been doing this for a while and we avoid these sellers. Everytime these go on sale more come out of the woodwork, we buy hundreds of coins and We are tired of being Mr nice guy with sellers taking no responsibility for what they do or shipping coins weeks later when the market has fallen. But miraculously they aren't available when they go up hundreds of dollars in days. Its not personal , its ehat we must do to deal with bad sellers and welcome deals with good trustworthy sellers. We are working 14 hr days morning to night so we are busy as well,,drive by a fedex or usps and throw the coin in a box if thats so inconvenient, dont ship us coins. So seems like you sat on a coin for 3 days in a extremely volatile market and now you're screaming bad bad coinflip when you initially messaged that you were at fault, but now we are bad to deal with? When does it become ok to not ship and it would be the shippers fault? 4 days 5 days 10 days ? 20 days? Never? How about a message like I am sorry I got tied up with life,, I am irresponsible with shipping at a timely manner ,I apologize, may I please ship overnight to compensate , sir? Sure ! No problem please ship!
RAD#306
They need to pull the plug on this guy. Closed last thread he starts up another.
>
Indeed, things happen, but you read as acting a bit daft. You rush to lock in an excellent price for something you don't have in hand with someone you know is a reseller. Then you wait around 3-4 days to ship the item after you receive it. You've been around. You know how this all works and this isn’t a random collector situation. You doing this is potentially costing the buyer money. If you can't ship an item once you receive it, you should wait to sell it until you can. Not doing so doesn't just cost coinflip...you also take the spot of someone else on this board who could have sold and delivered. And yes, coinflip should add the obvious that sellers who want to lock in a nice gain are expected to deliver once they receive but pretty sure you already knew that.
In all fairness, this is the old thread and someone else drug it up from 10 days under. Not the OP's fault. It's now a Highjacked thread under his name.
I thought this thread was locked
100% positive transactions with SurfinxHI, bigole, 1madman, collectorcoins, proofmorgan, Luke Marshall, silver pop, golden egg, point five zero,coin22lover, alohagary, blaircountycoin,joebb21
Agree.
is there a coinflip owned or f117asr thread that this could be debated out on instead?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1046536/buying-ww2-privy-525-ea#latest