Proof Franklin Half Submissions

Billk9989 · October 12, 2020 6:13PM

I have about a dozen Franklin proofs that I am going to sell, all are 68 or better in my estimation. Big difference in price between a 68 and a 69. I see on ebay that almost all Franklin proofs are NGC, and not PCGS. PCGS is the service I have been submitting my coins to. What is with the overwhelming presence of NGC-graded Franklin proofs on ebay versus PCGS-graded proofs? Should I be considering joining NGC simply for the submission of my proof Franklins?

DollarAfterDollar · October 12, 2020 7:04PM

Each company will grade them. NGC will attach a star to a proof Franklin with strong cameo on one side or both. Beyond that there's no difference in the services except fee.

Billk9989 · October 12, 2020 7:39PM

It appears to me that the submission prices are identical, so there must be something else that skews submissions so heavily toward NGC for Franklin proofs...? It’s like PCGS hardly has a presence for Franklin proofs.

jdimmick · October 12, 2020 7:53PM

I had bought two early proof sets that had nice franklins, submitted them to PCGS both graded 67+, consigned them to gc, both did well.

winesteven · October 12, 2020 7:58PM

Could it be that possibly PCGS is tougher on very high grade Franklins than NGC, hence people looking for higher grades submit to NGC? I don’t know. But as a GENERALIZATION (PLENTY of exceptions) “the market” pays more for coins graded by PCGS than equally graded coins by NGC with similar eye appeal. In theory it shouldn’t be that way, as we’re all taught to “Buy the coin, not the holder”. But “the market” is the boss.

Billk9989 · October 12, 2020 8:30PM

In the case of Franklin proofs, what I can glean from the ebay data is that, yes, the average grade of high grade Franklin proofs seems to be lower for PCGS graded coins than NGC. But, it must be less than one full grade step, if this is true. The reason I say this is because, say, an NGC 69 will sell for more than a PCGS 68. And maybe this is the answer to the question - if I submit a handful of Franklin proofs to NGC more of them will come back at 69 than if I were to submit the same handful to PCGS. And maybe sellers have made this determination. If we could actually see the proofs - accurate pictures that showed the minute details that determine the grade of a proof - we could see if there is a difference in the standards. I have done comparison looking between the two grading services, and I really don’t see a consistent difference for MS coins, where I feel that I can get a better sense of what the coin would look like in hand.

I just did two searches on ebay “franklin ms69 pcgs” and “franklin ms69 ngc”. There were exactly two PCGS PF69 coins. I quite counting on NGC PF69. There were at least a couple of hundred. I see nothing like this for PCGS and NGC MS coins.

Something is very very different here, and I a little surprised that nobody seems to understand what the difference is.

morgandollar1878 · October 12, 2020 8:58PM

NGC likely gave a deal on bulk submissions. Most of the photos have the same look to them, which would mean they are from the same seller. I know a couple dealers that have been sending in massive amounts of proof Franklins to NGC for bulk submission. PCGS slabs usually sell faster from my experience also.

winesteven · October 12, 2020 9:02PM

@Billk9989 , searches on eBay for PCGS Proof Franklins MUST use PR before the grade (the PCGS letters that they use), NOT PF before the grade (the letters that NGC uses). PF69 on eBay will omit some PCGS coins in those search results.

For truly accurate answers, look at pops provided for free by both PCGS and NGC. My guess though, without doing the pop searching, is yes, NGC has graded more proof 69’s than PCGS.

I’m going to take a peek now.

Edit: PCGS Totals: PCGS has graded 247 Franklins as PR69, 144 as PR69CAM, and by coincidence, another 144 as PR69DCAM.

NGC has graded many thousands more as Proof 69’s. I didn’t count the breakdown. So the true question is how do Sale prices at auction compare NGC 69’s to the same date PCGS 68’s? I don’t know, and don’t want to put in that amount of time, but that’s the key.

mannie gray · October 12, 2020 9:08PM

Even on common dates it is very tough to get a PF69/PR69.
Neither service hands them out like candy.

Billk9989 · October 12, 2020 9:13PM

Thanks, I was using PF. Using PR took PCGS up to 13 active listings. Still hugely more NGC 69s.

winesteven · October 12, 2020 9:22PM

See my edit above.

Billk9989 · October 12, 2020 9:23PM

@mannie gray said:
Even on common dates it is very tough to get a PF69/PR69.
Neither service hands them out like candy.

I dunno about that...

A rough estimate of what is up now on ebay shows for NGC about 150 PR69 and 200 PR68. PCGS is 13 PR69 and 130 PR68.

Looks to me like somebody is handy out candy. ;-)

winesteven · October 12, 2020 9:27PM

@mannie gray said:
Even on common dates it is very tough to get a PF69/PR69.
Neither service hands them out like candy.

Actually, I just did a rough eyeball count of NGC pops for Proof 69’s. Compared to PCGS’s 535 Proof 69’s including all suffixes, NGC has about 8,000. So some may say they do give them out like candy.

ShaunBC5 · October 12, 2020 9:32PM

Who does Tomaska send his to?
Small sample size (and no 69’s). It the slabbed proof Frankies I have are all NGC...overall my collection is pretty evenly split.

savitale · October 12, 2020 9:42PM

It is not just Proof Franklins, I have seen many more NGC 69's than PCGS 69's. Even the recent Legend Auction of the Morelan Collection had an NGC PF69 Trade Dollar. There's no doubt that company would have crossed it to PCGS if it could. And the coin has no sticker, which tells you something.

There's no doubt in my mind that NGC hands out 69's with some regularity, but for PCGS that is a practically unattainable grade.

winesteven · October 12, 2020 9:45PM

Here’s a VERY interesting stat, and I think we can all agree to read something into this: of all these roughly combined 8,500 or so proof 69’s by both TPG’s, CAC has indicated that ONLY 8 of those 8,500 or so merit their sticker. Two CAC’s for 69CAM, and six CAC’s for 69DCAM/UCAM. Without doing more research, no way to tell how many of those 8 are on coins from each service. Interesting that NO “plain” 69’s from either service has a CAC.

I’m fortunate to own a Franklin PCGS PR68+DCAM with a CAC (the most common date, 1956 Type 2). Not a 69, but oh so close!

badger · October 12, 2020 11:21PM

I collected Silver Proofs (1950-1964) for years. I don't have data as shown above but can give some impressions. My family lives in Dallas. When I visited, but needed a break, I would head downtown to Heritage's office. They would let me look at the upcoming auction's coins. Pretty much set me up in a room and shoved coins under the door. So, had the opportunity to see many PCGS and NGC Franklins side by side. General observations:

First, nice coins come in both holders.
But NGC cameos coins that PCGS won't. If a raw submission missed cameo at PCGS, then it was worthwhile to crack it and submit to NGC. Had to be close though. The cameos were so sought after that weak cameos in NGC priced above same coin at PCGS with no cameo.
I would never buy an NGC cameo Franklin without seeing it in hand. However, I would buy PCGS site unseen.
There was less difference between the agencies on DCams. If a coin had enough frost to consider as DCam, it was easier to judge? But then the grade comes into play. Once a coin gets to 68 or 69 territory, the differences are subtle. The PCGS PR69s were consistent in wow factor. NGC had more variation and could get some disappointing eye appeal with 69s.
I needed PCGS slabs for the registry so tried to cross a few. Have only a small sample size. The Silver proofs include 1c, 5c, 10c, 25c, and 50c. Only had one coin cross at the same grade - NGC going to PCGS. More typical was similar to the 1952 Washington Superbird proof in my collection. It was PF68UCam*. Crossed to PR67DCam. I resubmitted three times lol.. no love. Still a beautiful coin. Wish I could have kept it.
Anyway, I definitely noticed difference in grading on the Franklins. Is not a surprise that the data shows many more NGC Franklins at high level. Not only due to the grading but also people know where to send to get the grades.

ricko · October 13, 2020 5:47AM

Interesting analysis of the Franklin differences in grading. The numbers presented above are significant. Because of my background in statistics, I would really like to see a well done analysis (though given the differences above, it likely would not show any remarkable difference). Generally, I would believe, given the above data, that this will apply to other coin types as well - a confirmation of the general market opinion of the services. Cheers, RickO

Billk9989 · October 13, 2020 6:59AM

@winesteven said:
@Billk9989 , searches on eBay for PCGS Proof Franklins MUST use PR before the grade (the PCGS letters that they use), NOT PF before the grade (the letters that NGC uses). PF69 on eBay will omit some PCGS coins in those search results.

For truly accurate answers, look at pops provided for free by both PCGS and NGC. My guess though, without doing the pop searching, is yes, NGC has graded more proof 69’s than PCGS.

I’m going to take a peek now.

Edit: PCGS Totals: PCGS has graded 247 Franklins as PR69, 144 as PR69CAM, and by coincidence, another 144 as PR69DCAM.

NGC has graded many thousands more as Proof 69’s. I didn’t count the breakdown. So the true question is how do Sale prices at auction compare NGC 69’s to the same date PCGS 68’s? I don’t know, and don’t want to put in that amount of time, but that’s the key.

I have studied this briefly - $$ for a PCGS 68 vs. NGC 68 and 69. I’m convinced that, on average over a large population, we would see that a PCGS 68 brings somewhat higher price than an NGC 68. And that a NGC 69 brings a higher price than a PCGS 68. This latter comparison is very significant, due to the fact that there is such a big delta between a 68 and a 69 in the Franklin proofs.

You know, I got old so I’m selling my coins, which have pretty much sat dormant for 45 years. One of the things I have is a lot of BU rolls of Franklins that I bought back then and never paid a lot of attention to, just set them aside. Now I have gone through them and, shockingly, have found a lot of really high quality specimens. I’m talking many coins that I think will grade at MS66 and some that will flirt with MS67, mostly with FBL. Even more shocking is the way that the Franklin market has sorted out over time. Back then there were a few keys like 49-S and 55. Now, heck in 66 or 67 grade with FBL some of the overlooked dates list for thousands in the highest grades. It’s crazy - I learned that some of what I thought were great type coins that I have treasured and enjoyed were puttied, and I won’t make a great deal of $$ from them. But the mundane rolls of Franklins have specimens that are probably worth quite a lot. Forrest Gump said it all - life/chocolates/you never know what you’re gonna get, so true - including coins.

I’ve made a submission of MS Franklins to PCGS as a test case, and am waiting to see what comes back, as I have no experience with getting coins graded. My first submission of type coins came back pretty close to what I had expected, so I think that my grading eye isn’t entirely out of whack. I have been assuming that I will have all of my high grade Franklins and type coins graded by PCGS, due to their high reputation. And I did some cursory comparisons of PCGS and NGC MS Franklins (and other type coins) and nothing jumped out at me regarding different standards for a given grade. Now, given what I am seeing for PCGS and NGC proofs, I think that I’ll take a deeper look at possible differences for MS Franklins and maybe send a test case of some MS Franklins to NGC, too.

Cameonut · October 13, 2020 4:53PM

Listen to @Badger above. He has been around the block a few times and knows what he is talking about.

I have also submitted many proofs over the decades, but none recently. I always found PCGS to be tougher on the numerical grade by about a point (hence bazillions of NGC 69's vs a finite amount of PCGS 69's). It should be no surprise that PCGS coins tend to realize higher prices. Same goes for cameo contrast. In my experience, NGC will grant a cameo designation that won't cam at PCGS - same for the dcam/ucam designation. PCGS is tougher.

This is why all my decent cameos are in PCGS holders. I have been fortunate to cross many NGC coins to PCGS holders with no downgrades, but that simply confirms the notion that nice coins reside in both holders and I chose nice coins.

Lastly, unless you are talking about 60's Franklins, I have a healthy dose of skepticism that you have a box full of 68's or 69's without at least seeing a photo or two.

For my grading money - I'd submit to PCGS all day, every day. Forget NGC.

Billk9989 · October 13, 2020 9:16PM

I don’t remember saying that I have a box full of Franklin proofs. I have a dozen. I have many MS Franklins that I think will grade well, mostly from BU rolls that I recently went through.

Your request for a picture is fair. I only have one photo of a proof coin that I recently submitted to PCGS, which I have included here. The reverse is virtually perfect but I’m not including it because it has all of my member and submission numbers. I am also including a photo of an NGC equivalent coin that graded at MS68, as you can see. There is something about the obverse device on the 1952 proofs, that you can see in both my coin and the NCG graded one. It looks like hairlines, but it’s in the die, as I have seen a number of the 1952s and all but one seem to have this characteristic. You can see it clearly in the close-up of the NGC coin - hair, cheek, shirt, same general pattern as mine.

I would argue that my coin is probably better than the NGC one because my coin has no hairlines in the fields and I see a few on the NGC coin. My coin has a mirror finish on both sides in normal light, as I assume the NGC one does, too. All of my other proof Franklins are as good as this one, maybe better, because they don’t have the marks on the device.

As I recall, the NGC coin sold for a couple of grand. I am expecting that my coin is going to come back as 67 from PCGS, which will make it worth less than half what the NGC coin went for (again, from recollection). The PCGS price guide says that their PR68 has a retail value of $3750, far better than what the NGC coins are going for. But I’ll bet that I get PF67, for whatever reason, and that’s worth 800 bucks compared to the two thousand for the NGC. Like you, I have a bias toward PCGS. But more importantly, I just want to maximize what I get for my coins.

I added a couple of pictures of MS coins that I took pictures of, to document my PCGS submission as part of my Franklins test case, 59-P and 57-D, both FBL. I picked these out of BU rolls. On the MS coins I probably do have a box full of nice BU coins that I picked out of BU rolls that have been sitting for 45 years.

Proof Franklin Half Submissions

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