@3stars said:
From a state that elected pro wrestler Jesse Ventura as their governor, what do you expect?
I was not a big fan of Jesse, but he never would have signed a law like this. He was more of a libertarian.
As a side note, Jesse did something I never thought I would see. He brought the GOP and Dems together on a budget deal. They came to an agreement, cut Jesse out of the deal, and over rode his veto.
Wasn't this law enacted because older citizens were having their life savings drained by "dealers" selling coins on TV saying the stuff was an investment but when the buyers went to sell they discovered they had purchased worthless crap? I might be thinking of another situation but I do recall reading about something very similar.
"May the silver waves that bear you heavenward be filled with love’s whisperings"
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
@1Mike1 said:
Wasn't this law enacted because older citizens were having their life savings drained by "dealers" selling coins on TV saying the stuff was an investment but when the buyers went to sell they discovered they had purchased worthless crap? I might be thinking of another situation but I do recall reading about something very similar.
Not exactly, I talk about the origins of the law at the start of the youtube video. Asset Marketing Services (AMS) had there "Customer List" stolen by a former employee. The people using the list failed to deliver the product. AMS then worked with the attorney general to write the law, and get the little guy out of business. There were other fraudsters that inspired the law as well, on died before trial, the others spent time in the Federal pokie.
It is complicated here in Canada with trans provincial transactions.
But what YOU guys have there in the excited state of MN is simply unreal!
Guys and girls........I hope we will all be still above ground to experience common sense in trade and politics.
Namely, but not limited to:
have the same laws for every state and province. like the same Drivers license, motor vehicle acts and of course, the same taxation. oh, yes, the same criminal laws... just all the same regardless where it happened and how it happend and most important how an infraction is being dealt with..
is this wishful utopia thinking?
@YQQ It’s it’s utopian thinking. We don’t even have that from county to county here. You drive 50 miles in any direction and the taxation and traffic laws are different. Somethings are perfectly legal in one state, and a felony in the next state over. Texas and California (for example) will never be on the same page on everything.
Law on silver... Blahhh blahhh blahhh... He and his group don't like the law... He got a lawyer to file a lawsuit... He hopes to win lawsuit and change the law.... Blahhh blahhh blahhhh
History has shown, quite well, that not all laws are legal. Only when someone has the courage (and resources) to stand up to them do they get overturned and justice prevails. Women can now vote!
@derryb said:
Has anyone to date been charged under this MN law?
I am not aware of anyone being charged criminally under this MN law. I think the criminal charges are in their for added intimidation, and to encourage more people to just pay the civil fine.
There have been MN dealers charged in criminal Federal court, since the MN has been enacted.
@derryb said:
I would suggest that the lawsuit address jurisdiction of the MN courts who in affect will be seeking criminal charges against someone (a coin dealer who ships a coin to a residence in MN) out of state who never stepped foot into MN.
If I live outside of MN and post a social media statement against MN that the AG of MN finds offensive, does that AG have the jurisdiction to file MN charges against me? How long before a state can impose it's electronics communications tax on an out of state person who telephones someone in that state?
This is an "overreach" law and it needs to be nipped in the bud. Good luck to the OP. I suggest a "Go Fund" page to assist with expenses.
I also believe such a lawsuit would receive more "sympathy" from the MN courts if it were filed by a MN resident who is negatively impacted by restrictions placed on his out of state preferred retailers who will no longer sell to him.
Yes, I do have a gofundme page setup, to raise money for the expenses of the suit. Right now we are thinking Public Relations, and expert witnesses.
While the MN law is beyond ridiculous, excuse me if I just expel an exasperated sigh at this time. There are far higher priorities out there now than one state's coin dealer "oppression". While coins are still on my radar, I'd rather see our healthcare workers (two of my daughters are among them) and other frontline people get more attention than this thing. Maybe after things settle down.
Maybe when things have settled down your state will have passed the same "ridiculous" law. While healthcare workers are more than worthy of attention, this is a coin forum where coin things tend to get attention.
@ElmerFusterpuck said:
While the MN law is beyond ridiculous, excuse me if I just expel an exasperated sigh at this time. There are far higher priorities out there now than one state's coin dealer "oppression". While coins are still on my radar, I'd rather see our healthcare workers (two of my daughters are among them) and other frontline people get more attention than this thing. Maybe after things settle down.
I can't argue with this post except this is a coin forum and that's why it came up. Healthcare has their own lobbyists and professional societies and I know there is a lot going on with those right now. Unfortunately, this effort in MN needs to be a grassroots effort at the moment. There are a lot of issues in the world that need addressing. This is one that impacts our hobby and I'm glad @Tomthecoinguy is fighting it!
@ElmerFusterpuck said:
While the MN law is beyond ridiculous, excuse me if I just expel an exasperated sigh at this time. There are far higher priorities out there now than one state's coin dealer "oppression". While coins are still on my radar, I'd rather see our healthcare workers (two of my daughters are among them) and other frontline people get more attention than this thing. Maybe after things settle down.
It is fine for people to have different priorities, personally I put the Constitution and Liberty high on the list. I am not alone, as many have died for them.
lol, as you can see, my post count needs no help. This worthy cause, however, does. It's one thing to not support your fellow coin collectors/dealers. It's quite another to try to discourage others from doing so.
Based on the Wayfair decision, not sure how this law won’t be upheld. Wayfair specifically targeted sellers shipping goods into a state. It allowed each State to set a nexus threshold above which a seller must register and collect applicable taxes.
@taxmad said:
Based on the Wayfair decision, not sure how this law won’t be upheld. Wayfair specifically targeted sellers shipping goods into a state. It allowed each State to set a nexus threshold above which a seller must register and collect applicable taxes.
@derryb said:
Maybe when things have settled down your state will have passed the same "ridiculous" law.
Crystal ball gazing doesn't count, except to add to your post count.
Let me rephrase Derryb's post:
First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me
by Martin Niemöller
Talk about comparing a mole hill to a mountain!
You have no idea just how bad the Minnesota Department of Commerce has been. They came after me for post on this board, they altered documents, and lied to a state court judge to try and get me. They also have a common practice of extorting out-of-state coin dealers.
@taxmad said:
Based on the Wayfair decision, not sure how this law won’t be upheld. Wayfair specifically targeted sellers shipping goods into a state. It allowed each State to set a nexus threshold above which a seller must register and collect applicable taxes.
@derryb said:
Maybe when things have settled down your state will have passed the same "ridiculous" law.
Crystal ball gazing doesn't count, except to add to your post count.
Let me rephrase Derryb's post:
First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me
by Martin Niemöller
Talk about comparing a mole hill to a mountain!
You have no idea just how bad the Minnesota Department of Commerce has been. They came after me for post on this board, they altered documents, and lied to a state court judge to try and get me. They also have a common practice of extorting out-of-state coin dealers.
My bad - i was going off of memory. Re-read the law. Interesting that they wrote it to exclude eBay...
Good luck - I will lean on my previous post a bit - Wayfair determined a company had nexus based on a set number of transactions and/or a dollar amount. This attempts to do the same. While some of the definitions are confusing, the underlying requirement to register is not and does follow Wayfair's logic vis-a-vis nexus.
@derryb said:
Maybe when things have settled down your state will have passed the same "ridiculous" law.
Crystal ball gazing doesn't count, except to add to your post count.
Let me rephrase Derryb's post:
First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me
by Martin Niemöller
Talk about comparing a mole hill to a mountain!
You have no idea just how bad the Minnesota Department of Commerce has been. They came after me for post on this board, they altered documents, and lied to a state court judge to try and get me. They also have a common practice of extorting out-of-state coin dealers.
Harley a comparison to the Holocaust or communism
Likely the comparison was meant to be between people who speak out for others and those who will not speak out until they find themselves under threat.
@derryb said:
Maybe when things have settled down your state will have passed the same "ridiculous" law.
Crystal ball gazing doesn't count, except to add to your post count.
Let me rephrase Derryb's post:
First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me
by Martin Niemöller
Talk about comparing a mole hill to a mountain!
You have no idea just how bad the Minnesota Department of Commerce has been. They came after me for post on this board, they altered documents, and lied to a state court judge to try and get me. They also have a common practice of extorting out-of-state coin dealers.
Harley a comparison to the Holocaust or communism
It is all tyranny, just at different stages. Tyranny always starts small.
While I don't care for the law, if I recall it was changed to put the threshhold for needing to register with the state at $25000 in sales in MN. For anyone doing that volume of business, it's probably worth a few hundred dollars to get the paperwork in order, silly though it may be. Since these changes (and you have ICTA to thank), I was under the impression that it's not quite as burdensome on the small volume dealers.
Are out of state dealers still excluding Minnesota residents?
@Nap said:
While I don't care for the law, if I recall it was changed to put the threshhold for needing to register with the state at $25000 in sales in MN. For anyone doing that volume of business, it's probably worth a few hundred dollars to get the paperwork in order, silly though it may be. Since these changes (and you have ICTA to thank), I was under the impression that it's not quite as burdensome on the small volume dealers.
Are out of state dealers still excluding Minnesota residents?
You should read the law, it really is a total mess the way it is written. The 2016 changes made minor changes, and even expanded the products covered, it did not change the fact it was a total mess.
There are just as many if not more dealers banning MN residents now vs 2016. The threshold is not $25,000 in sales and purchases to Minnesota residents. All sales count towards the $25,000 threshold even if they have nothing to do with MN, then if you have one transaction with a MN resident the registration requirement kicks in.
I could make a convincing argument that treasure island is one of the few reasons I'm collecting today. They are stunning people in person and online. I can only wish you guys the best.
I never have and don't plan to! F Mn. and come get me if you dare! I think if they did come after me a good lawyer would make it a profitable venture for me!
@Nap said:
While I don't care for the law, if I recall it was changed to put the threshhold for needing to register with the state at $25000 in sales in MN. For anyone doing that volume of business, it's probably worth a few hundred dollars to get the paperwork in order, silly though it may be. Since these changes (and you have ICTA to thank), I was under the impression that it's not quite as burdensome on the small volume dealers.
Are out of state dealers still excluding Minnesota residents?
Wonder how long it will take to get to the Supreme Court? 6-8 years?
Seems like lobbying the MN legislature and whoever the dimwits were who created this law may achieve quicker results. I assume you’ve tried that route.
@oldUScoins said:
Wonder how long it will take to get to the Supreme Court? 6-8 years?
Seems like lobbying the MN legislature and whoever the dimwits were who created this law may achieve quicker results. I assume you’ve tried that route.
Yes, the judicial branch is really slow. Although I don't think it goes all the way to the Supreme Court, although it is certainly possible with the nature of the case. Much more likely it gets resolved (in our favor) at the appeals court level.
Yes, the legislative process in MN is terrible right now. Because of the approach the MN DoC has taken, i.e. ignore the law because it is cheaper for most companies to pay the fines, it means the law must be totally gone to stop their tactics.
Interesting! I'll read it. The issues in dispute are both esoteric and complex, particularly the dormant commerce clause issues, and even for seasoned lawyers. So, I'm glad you got a firm to take it on a contingent fee. I really don't know much about this statute, so I will enjoy this. Good luck with it and I hope you prevail.
Just watched the video. I think you've got a good case on all three issues, but then, I was wrong on the Izzy Swift case.
Does Minnesota keep records of its legislative history?
@TPRC said:
Interesting! I'll read it. The issues in dispute are both esoteric and complex, particularly the dormant commerce clause issues, and even for seasoned lawyers. So, I'm glad you got a firm to take it on a contingent fee. I really don't know much about this statute, so I will enjoy this. Good luck with it and I hope you prevail.
Just watched the video. I think you've got a good case on all three issues, but then, I was wrong on the Izzy Swift case.
Does Minnesota keep records of its legislative history?
Yes, we have good records on legislative history. Tapes are available on-line of all the hearings, and all versions of the bill are available.
When I talk in the video about what promoted the law, I got that information from the hearings.
Reading a lot of these responses makes me sad. Why are forum members attacking a user who is spending his time, effort and money to get a more favorable coin collecting/selling climate in Minnesota? Seems weird that users are ridiculing, trolling and presenting defeatist attitudes. No wonder the US is where it currently is. I guess I underestimated how many pathetic people there out there who are ready and willing to bend over and take it from state legislatures...
The law is very painful and exceeding slow (The wheels of justice turn slowly, but grind exceedingly fine) so you really have to exhaust all other remedies before resorting to very expensive legal action which I'm sure the op has. I hope he gets justice as it makes no sense to apply such taxes to precious metals.
@ms70 said:
I can't believe this didn't happen sooner.
Me too, it has been a long time in the works. The path it took to get here has been a long one. Perhaps when it is all over I will share all the details, it could fill a book.
Comments
I was not a big fan of Jesse, but he never would have signed a law like this. He was more of a libertarian.
As a side note, Jesse did something I never thought I would see. He brought the GOP and Dems together on a budget deal. They came to an agreement, cut Jesse out of the deal, and over rode his veto.
Join the fight against Minnesota's unjust coin dealer tax law.
Wasn't this law enacted because older citizens were having their life savings drained by "dealers" selling coins on TV saying the stuff was an investment but when the buyers went to sell they discovered they had purchased worthless crap? I might be thinking of another situation but I do recall reading about something very similar.
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
Best of luck with the lawsuit. I have heard lots of complaints about it - here and elsewhere. Cheers, RickO
Not exactly, I talk about the origins of the law at the start of the youtube video. Asset Marketing Services (AMS) had there "Customer List" stolen by a former employee. The people using the list failed to deliver the product. AMS then worked with the attorney general to write the law, and get the little guy out of business. There were other fraudsters that inspired the law as well, on died before trial, the others spent time in the Federal pokie.
Join the fight against Minnesota's unjust coin dealer tax law.
It is complicated here in Canada with trans provincial transactions.
But what YOU guys have there in the excited state of MN is simply unreal!
Guys and girls........I hope we will all be still above ground to experience common sense in trade and politics.
Namely, but not limited to:
have the same laws for every state and province. like the same Drivers license, motor vehicle acts and of course, the same taxation. oh, yes, the same criminal laws... just all the same regardless where it happened and how it happend and most important how an infraction is being dealt with..
is this wishful utopia thinking?
@YQQ It’s it’s utopian thinking. We don’t even have that from county to county here. You drive 50 miles in any direction and the taxation and traffic laws are different. Somethings are perfectly legal in one state, and a felony in the next state over. Texas and California (for example) will never be on the same page on everything.
History has shown, quite well, that not all laws are legal. Only when someone has the courage (and resources) to stand up to them do they get overturned and justice prevails. Women can now vote!
ZeroHedge makes debut at White House press corps briefing
How long before a state can impose it's electronics communications tax on an out of state person who telephones someone in that state?
ZeroHedge makes debut at White House press corps briefing
Has anyone to date been charged under this MN law?
ZeroHedge makes debut at White House press corps briefing
I am not aware of anyone being charged criminally under this MN law. I think the criminal charges are in their for added intimidation, and to encourage more people to just pay the civil fine.
There have been MN dealers charged in criminal Federal court, since the MN has been enacted.
Join the fight against Minnesota's unjust coin dealer tax law.
Yes, I do have a gofundme page setup, to raise money for the expenses of the suit. Right now we are thinking Public Relations, and expert witnesses.
gf.me/u/yqj4kx
Join the fight against Minnesota's unjust coin dealer tax law.
a noble fight that is worthy of donations.
ZeroHedge makes debut at White House press corps briefing
and if you have nothing better to do for the next ten years...
Results occur only when you do something. lol
ZeroHedge makes debut at White House press corps briefing
While the MN law is beyond ridiculous, excuse me if I just expel an exasperated sigh at this time. There are far higher priorities out there now than one state's coin dealer "oppression". While coins are still on my radar, I'd rather see our healthcare workers (two of my daughters are among them) and other frontline people get more attention than this thing. Maybe after things settle down.
10-4,
My Instagram picturesErik
My registry sets
Maybe when things have settled down your state will have passed the same "ridiculous" law. While healthcare workers are more than worthy of attention, this is a coin forum where coin things tend to get attention.
ZeroHedge makes debut at White House press corps briefing
This litigation will likely take years to get resolved favorably. Good that the OP started now, in my view.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
I can't argue with this post except this is a coin forum and that's why it came up. Healthcare has their own lobbyists and professional societies and I know there is a lot going on with those right now. Unfortunately, this effort in MN needs to be a grassroots effort at the moment. There are a lot of issues in the world that need addressing. This is one that impacts our hobby and I'm glad @Tomthecoinguy is fighting it!
Terrible law. I remember when it was put in place. Best of luck!
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
It is fine for people to have different priorities, personally I put the Constitution and Liberty high on the list. I am not alone, as many have died for them.
Join the fight against Minnesota's unjust coin dealer tax law.
Crystal ball gazing doesn't count, except to add to your post count.
10-4,
My Instagram picturesErik
My registry sets
Let me rephrase Derryb's post:
First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me
by Martin Niemöller
Join the fight against Minnesota's unjust coin dealer tax law.
lol, as you can see, my post count needs no help. This worthy cause, however, does. It's one thing to not support your fellow coin collectors/dealers. It's quite another to try to discourage others from doing so.
ZeroHedge makes debut at White House press corps briefing
Based on the Wayfair decision, not sure how this law won’t be upheld. Wayfair specifically targeted sellers shipping goods into a state. It allowed each State to set a nexus threshold above which a seller must register and collect applicable taxes.
Talk about comparing a mole hill to a mountain!
There really isn't any comparison.
Join the fight against Minnesota's unjust coin dealer tax law.
You have no idea just how bad the Minnesota Department of Commerce has been. They came after me for post on this board, they altered documents, and lied to a state court judge to try and get me. They also have a common practice of extorting out-of-state coin dealers.
Join the fight against Minnesota's unjust coin dealer tax law.
The law in question is not about taxes.
Choice Numismatics www.ChoiceCoin.com
CN eBay
All of my collection is in a safe deposit box!
Harley a comparison to the Holocaust or communism
My bad - i was going off of memory. Re-read the law. Interesting that they wrote it to exclude eBay...
Good luck - I will lean on my previous post a bit - Wayfair determined a company had nexus based on a set number of transactions and/or a dollar amount. This attempts to do the same. While some of the definitions are confusing, the underlying requirement to register is not and does follow Wayfair's logic vis-a-vis nexus.
Good luck.
Likely the comparison was meant to be between people who speak out for others and those who will not speak out until they find themselves under threat.
ZeroHedge makes debut at White House press corps briefing
It is all tyranny, just at different stages. Tyranny always starts small.
Join the fight against Minnesota's unjust coin dealer tax law.
"Enough is Enough, lawsuit filed!"
While I don't care for the law, if I recall it was changed to put the threshhold for needing to register with the state at $25000 in sales in MN. For anyone doing that volume of business, it's probably worth a few hundred dollars to get the paperwork in order, silly though it may be. Since these changes (and you have ICTA to thank), I was under the impression that it's not quite as burdensome on the small volume dealers.
Are out of state dealers still excluding Minnesota residents?
You should read the law, it really is a total mess the way it is written. The 2016 changes made minor changes, and even expanded the products covered, it did not change the fact it was a total mess.
There are just as many if not more dealers banning MN residents now vs 2016. The threshold is not $25,000 in sales and purchases to Minnesota residents. All sales count towards the $25,000 threshold even if they have nothing to do with MN, then if you have one transaction with a MN resident the registration requirement kicks in.
Join the fight against Minnesota's unjust coin dealer tax law.
I could make a convincing argument that treasure island is one of the few reasons I'm collecting today. They are stunning people in person and online. I can only wish you guys the best.
I never have and don't plan to! F Mn. and come get me if you dare! I think if they did come after me a good lawyer would make it a profitable venture for me!
great work
www.paradimecoins.com - Specializing in Top Pop Type PCGS CAC coins. Subscribe To Our NEWPs Mailing List
Thanks, I will keep people posted on the progress.
Join the fight against Minnesota's unjust coin dealer tax law.
Wonder how long it will take to get to the Supreme Court? 6-8 years?
Seems like lobbying the MN legislature and whoever the dimwits were who created this law may achieve quicker results. I assume you’ve tried that route.
Yes, the judicial branch is really slow. Although I don't think it goes all the way to the Supreme Court, although it is certainly possible with the nature of the case. Much more likely it gets resolved (in our favor) at the appeals court level.
Yes, the legislative process in MN is terrible right now. Because of the approach the MN DoC has taken, i.e. ignore the law because it is cheaper for most companies to pay the fines, it means the law must be totally gone to stop their tactics.
Join the fight against Minnesota's unjust coin dealer tax law.
Interesting! I'll read it. The issues in dispute are both esoteric and complex, particularly the dormant commerce clause issues, and even for seasoned lawyers. So, I'm glad you got a firm to take it on a contingent fee. I really don't know much about this statute, so I will enjoy this. Good luck with it and I hope you prevail.
Just watched the video. I think you've got a good case on all three issues, but then, I was wrong on the Izzy Swift case.
Does Minnesota keep records of its legislative history?
Tom
Yes, we have good records on legislative history. Tapes are available on-line of all the hearings, and all versions of the bill are available.
When I talk in the video about what promoted the law, I got that information from the hearings.
Join the fight against Minnesota's unjust coin dealer tax law.
Thanks for taking the lead @Tomthecoinguy
Reading a lot of these responses makes me sad. Why are forum members attacking a user who is spending his time, effort and money to get a more favorable coin collecting/selling climate in Minnesota? Seems weird that users are ridiculing, trolling and presenting defeatist attitudes. No wonder the US is where it currently is. I guess I underestimated how many pathetic people there out there who are ready and willing to bend over and take it from state legislatures...
The law is very painful and exceeding slow (The wheels of justice turn slowly, but grind exceedingly fine) so you really have to exhaust all other remedies before resorting to very expensive legal action which I'm sure the op has. I hope he gets justice as it makes no sense to apply such taxes to precious metals.
If you want to track it in pacer, the case # is ** 0:20-cv-02019-NEB-BRT** Styczinski et al v. Arnold
The whole complaint is 73 pages ... can you post it somewhere so we don't have to pay 10c/page to download it?
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
Yes, here is a link to the filing. To make it easier to find later, this link is also in the original post.
https://www.tcpr.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/Complaint-Final-for-Filing-MN-Precious-Metals-9-22-20.pdf
Join the fight against Minnesota's unjust coin dealer tax law.
I can't believe this didn't happen sooner.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
Me too, it has been a long time in the works. The path it took to get here has been a long one. Perhaps when it is all over I will share all the details, it could fill a book.
Join the fight against Minnesota's unjust coin dealer tax law.