@WCC said:
A higher supply might be more than offset by increased demand.
I have no doubt the bags of Morgan dollars that sat in vaults for generations are a good example of this. People don't generally start collections of coins they have no realistic hope of ever acquiring.
Yes, this is an example, probably the best one. It's different than most series but I don't believe that the demand is primarily because collectors really like it that much. For the most common dates, I assume that most aren't even owned by collectors but for financial speculation. The large supply enables a very large collector base and from it, a low to very low proportion pay high prices due to how coins are collected in the US (E.G., TPG).
I think the whole notion of keeping pop reports accurate has been long forgotten. I gave up worrying about this when TPG's started offering free pop reports....... they knew how skewed their figures were ! Personally my experience has been with crossing from PCGS to NGC for reasons that would scare some of you (just don't tell anyone). Of course keep the label with the coin as a fourth party opinion. If you did your homework when you bought the coin, the labels should be the same.
@bidask said:
I have about 40 NGC labels where the coins have crossed but I have yet to send into NGC cause I’m paranoid they would not perform on my request to delete the coin from their database.
So- because you're worried they won't delete the coin from their database, you choose a course of action that, in effect, assures they can't delete the coin from their database? I guess I'm not seeing the upside here.
That is correct . No upside until I can be sure they will be deleted !
Why should that matter to you? Just send them in and of course they will remove them. It's obvious then that the slab isn't intact anymore. It's in their best interest to do so. You can always keep a pic of a couple and check the cert number to see if it has been deleted.
@PerryHall said:
Didn't the grading services pay 50 cents for each returned label?
Once upon a time they did. My understanding is NGC merely says thank you now. I think I heard PCGS will do something small for a large enough batch like a free grading cert or something. But neither may be true today any longer.
I think PCGS pays a fitty cents bounty, but it takes a couple months for them to get around to it. I once included some with a submission and subtracted the bounty from my total and still got a check.
@PerryHall said:
Didn't the grading services pay 50 cents for each returned label?
Once upon a time they did. My understanding is NGC merely says thank you now. I think I heard PCGS will do something small for a large enough batch like a free grading cert or something. But neither may be true today any longer.
I think PCGS pays a fitty cents bounty, but it takes a couple months for them to get around to it. I once included some with a submission and subtracted the bounty from my total and still got a check.
Awesome! Do you just send a note with the labels in a ziplock?
@PerryHall said:
Didn't the grading services pay 50 cents for each returned label?
Once upon a time they did. My understanding is NGC merely says thank you now. I think I heard PCGS will do something small for a large enough batch like a free grading cert or something. But neither may be true today any longer.
I think PCGS pays a fitty cents bounty, but it takes a couple months for them to get around to it. I once included some with a submission and subtracted the bounty from my total and still got a check.
Awesome! Do you just send a note with the labels in a ziplock?
I don't think you need to include a note. They know what they are and what to do with them. At least, I hope they do.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I can't speak for NGC because I don't have my "Agreement" handy at the moment, but the latest "PCGS Collectors Club Agreement" has an interesting and applicable clause included:
PCGS Coin Holders.
(a) If Customer breaks open any PCGS coin Holder, it shall immediately return to PCGS the PCGS certification label and shall destroy such coin Holder. Each PCGS certification label at all times shall remain the property of PCGS. If Customer comes into possession of any Holder which is not completely sealed, Customer shall immediately return such Holder to PCGS.
this is pretty clear and straightforward, PCGS is saying that they WANT the pop report to be accurate but the onus of returning labels is on members. we may whine, moan, bitch and complain about the inaccuracy of the pop numbers. my hunch is that not many members are aware of this fact or even read their user agreement.
@BryceM said:
Your efforts are commendable, but I think you’re trying to put out a house fire with a thimble.
Meaning ...?
I believe he is insinuating that there are thousands and thousands of labels that do not get turned in so for the couple that do, it helps very little. A thimble of water instead of buckets and fire hoses etc.
To this point---i once was at the office of a prominent dealer. We were talking coins and at one point he opened a drawer and showed me literally thousands of labels he has kept and never turned in. That imagine is always in my mind when looking at pop reports.
I have never crossed NGC to PCGS or the other way. But, when I bought coins with labels after crossing, returned and yes, updated. It took a little bit of ti.e but did happen (so so not despair @Boosibri ).
@BryceM said:
Your efforts are commendable, but I think you’re trying to put out a house fire with a thimble.
Meaning ...?
I believe he is insinuating that there are thousands and thousands of labels that do not get turned in so for the couple that do, it helps very little. A thimble of water instead of buckets and fire hoses etc.
To this point---i once was at the office of a prominent dealer. We were talking coins and at one point he opened a drawer and showed me literally thousands of labels he has kept and never turned in. That imagine is always in my mind when looking at pop reports.
There was a picture posted some years back of a dealer [Steve Contursi comes to mind] with a yuge pile of cracked out slabs. IIRC he donated the bounty of somewhere over $30K.
@keets said:
I can't speak for NGC because I don't have my "Agreement" handy at the moment, but the latest "PCGS Collectors Club Agreement" has an interesting and applicable clause included:
PCGS Coin Holders.
(a) If Customer breaks open any PCGS coin Holder, it shall immediately return to PCGS the PCGS certification label and shall destroy such coin Holder. Each PCGS certification label at all times shall remain the property of PCGS. If Customer comes into possession of any Holder which is not completely sealed, Customer shall immediately return such Holder to PCGS.
this is pretty clear and straightforward, PCGS is saying that they WANT the pop report to be accurate but the onus of returning labels is on members. we may whine, moan, bitch and complain about the inaccuracy of the pop numbers. my hunch is that not many members are aware of this fact or even read their user agreement.
Do you think this clause is there for pop report accuracy, or to prevent slab counterfeiting with same date coins of lesser grade?
Not a crossover player - I don’t have anything where the change in bluesheet bid value if any (US material) would justify the expense. In addition the crackout / holder game can be risky. Anything I would do there I play to win not tie or lose.
Most of my slabs are Pcgs, next highest number NGC, then some ANacs, ICG. None of non Pcgs / NGC material enough in cost / MV to justify the huge expense of the holder game.
In answer to op question - no. Whatever stat imbalance issue from crackout game on pops that water went under bridge a long time ago.
In summary I agree w BryceM comment on futility of it. Plus a lot of coins so common like generic dollars even if accurate pop accounting would barely put dent in it.
Comments
Nevermind.
You tagged my prior post with a "LOL". I wasn't offended, just wondering what you saw in my post.
Yes, this is an example, probably the best one. It's different than most series but I don't believe that the demand is primarily because collectors really like it that much. For the most common dates, I assume that most aren't even owned by collectors but for financial speculation. The large supply enables a very large collector base and from it, a low to very low proportion pay high prices due to how coins are collected in the US (E.G., TPG).
I think the whole notion of keeping pop reports accurate has been long forgotten. I gave up worrying about this when TPG's started offering free pop reports....... they knew how skewed their figures were ! Personally my experience has been with crossing from PCGS to NGC for reasons that would scare some of you (just don't tell anyone). Of course keep the label with the coin as a fourth party opinion. If you did your homework when you bought the coin, the labels should be the same.
Keeping old labels you crack out gives you insider info on the scarcity of some coins!
As has already been correctly pointed out, your solution of holding onto the labels, insures that the very thing you want to happen, won’t happen.
Contact NGC, tell them of your concerns, ask to whose attention you can mail the labels and keep a copy of them for yourself.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Why should that matter to you? Just send them in and of course they will remove them. It's obvious then that the slab isn't intact anymore. It's in their best interest to do so. You can always keep a pic of a couple and check the cert number to see if it has been deleted.
I think PCGS pays a fitty cents bounty, but it takes a couple months for them to get around to it. I once included some with a submission and subtracted the bounty from my total and still got a check.
Awesome! Do you just send a note with the labels in a ziplock?
I send them back because it's the right thing to do.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
I don't think you need to include a note. They know what they are and what to do with them. At least, I hope they do.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I can't speak for NGC because I don't have my "Agreement" handy at the moment, but the latest "PCGS Collectors Club Agreement" has an interesting and applicable clause included:
(a) If Customer breaks open any PCGS coin Holder, it shall immediately return to PCGS the PCGS certification label and shall destroy such coin Holder. Each PCGS certification label at all times shall remain the property of PCGS. If Customer comes into possession of any Holder which is not completely sealed, Customer shall immediately return such Holder to PCGS.
this is pretty clear and straightforward, PCGS is saying that they WANT the pop report to be accurate but the onus of returning labels is on members. we may whine, moan, bitch and complain about the inaccuracy of the pop numbers. my hunch is that not many members are aware of this fact or even read their user agreement.
To this point---i once was at the office of a prominent dealer. We were talking coins and at one point he opened a drawer and showed me literally thousands of labels he has kept and never turned in. That imagine is always in my mind when looking at pop reports.
I have never crossed NGC to PCGS or the other way. But, when I bought coins with labels after crossing, returned and yes, updated. It took a little bit of ti.e but did happen (so so not despair @Boosibri ).
There was a picture posted some years back of a dealer [Steve Contursi comes to mind] with a yuge pile of cracked out slabs. IIRC he donated the bounty of somewhere over $30K.
I have issues with both PCGS and NGC on updating population reports.
You are joining the club. Most here do have issues, whether coin related or not. 😉🤣
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
If you have a CAC submission, you can toss your crack-out labels in the box & JA will send them where they need to go.
My Saint Set
Why would you do that if you get an account credit? Every 40-70 labels or so is a free economy or regular submission.
I'm pretty sure PCGS or I will be dead in 60 years.
My Saint Set
Do you think this clause is there for pop report accuracy, or to prevent slab counterfeiting with same date coins of lesser grade?
Successful BST transactions with: Cameonut, Rob41281
both.
No (unless they sent me free grading coupons).
Not a crossover player - I don’t have anything where the change in bluesheet bid value if any (US material) would justify the expense. In addition the crackout / holder game can be risky. Anything I would do there I play to win not tie or lose.
Most of my slabs are Pcgs, next highest number NGC, then some ANacs, ICG. None of non Pcgs / NGC material enough in cost / MV to justify the huge expense of the holder game.
In answer to op question - no. Whatever stat imbalance issue from crackout game on pops that water went under bridge a long time ago.
In summary I agree w BryceM comment on futility of it. Plus a lot of coins so common like generic dollars even if accurate pop accounting would barely put dent in it.
Just recently I sent an NGC 1879 CC to our host. I did not ask for Crossover but was pleasantly surprised when it came back at the same grade.