Failure Friday - Stories Where a Coin Didn't Work Out
CPJ
Posts: 78 ✭✭✭
Here's something a bit different. Most often, we hear stories of great success. It's just human nature to tell others of those purchases that worked out very well. Occasionally, and on this forum more commonly seen than I expected, you will see someone tell about where a coin failed to look as expected or was a financial loss. I personally find that I often learn more from these tales than those of resounding success.
So with that introduction, I am curious to hear more of the stories of failure. And since it is Friday, I chose Failure Friday for the title. Most anything will go as I find different aspects of the hobby interesting and can learn something from them. Examples are a coin that didn't look as expected, a crack out that was a huge loss, dipping that created a monster (in a bad way), etc. As I'm very picture oriented, those would help if available.
I'll start with one of my early failures. I was looking for a mid MS grade Peace Dollar with nice toning and color. I thought I had a winner. Grade - check, color - check, overall look - check, die cracks - nice bonus. It wasn't until I had it in hand that I realized I totally overlooked the scratch marks on the obverse toning. In pulling up the sellers pictures, they were there, but did not look very prominent. The lesson was simple, look at the entire coin and don't just focus on those areas that catch the eye.
Here are two images of the failure. One uses standard lighting and the second was an axial technique to show the in hand color The axial shot really makes the scratches prominent. Nice coin, but for those scratches......
Standard Lighting
Axial
Comments
I found out long ago that the best way to protect myself from those fails was to never make an assessment of a prospective purchase with the coin held "right side up". That is, I turn the holder so that the date is at 12 o'clock when assessing the obverse. It seems that, for me at least, when you look at a coin in the normal orientation, flaws are somehow easier to overlook if they're not immediately apparent. I think your eye tends to see what you expect (want) to see.
Coinlearner, Ahrensdad, Nolawyer, RG, coinlieutenant, Yorkshireman, lordmarcovan, Soldi, masscrew, JimTyler, Relaxn, jclovescoins, justindan, doubleeagle07
Now listen boy, I'm tryin' to teach you sumthin' . . . . that ain't no optical illusion, it only looks like an optical illusion.
My mind reader refuses to charge me. . . . . . .
Does losing a Stella by tossing it in the trash by mistake count?
One of our favorite forum members here did that decades ago.
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
Cool topic
Here's one I've shared here- a very nice unc 1914 buffalo that I somehow missed a scratch on the obverse. I am partially vindicated though because when I first posted it others didn't see it until pointed out. It's above the cheek.
I also have an otherwise gem 1916 that has rolling machine damage hidden in the hair and touches a few other high points near the rim. I don't have a picture of that one though. Both were raw ebay purchases.
Collector, occasional seller
A Stella!. Arghhhhh!
Coinlearner, Ahrensdad, Nolawyer, RG, coinlieutenant, Yorkshireman, lordmarcovan, Soldi, masscrew, JimTyler, Relaxn, jclovescoins, justindan, doubleeagle07
Now listen boy, I'm tryin' to teach you sumthin' . . . . that ain't no optical illusion, it only looks like an optical illusion.
My mind reader refuses to charge me. . . . . . .
We have all made mistakes in our collecting experience, some more than others....And we see such issues here on a daily basis. Not sure that people will focus everything into one thread, since many do not know (at the time of posting) that they overlooked something - since 'new' collectors just do not have the knowledge. Remember, experience is that knowledge one obtains through inexperience. Cheers, RickO
I was looking at a nice 1923 Canadian cent starting with the reverse. we agreed it was a nice coin in high grade. I flipped it over just to find a huge staple on the obverse. I didn't stay long after seeing that. I wish he would have been nicer and told me first. his loss
I assume by staple you meant staple scratch. That would have been a deal killer for me too.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Whew! After reading the first line, I thought there were two Stellas in the trash!
yes staple scratch. my apologies on the confusion all
So many coins that I thought were cherrypicks, only to realize in the hand that I had blown the attribution. So many hidden cleanings and overlooked scratches on otherwise high grade coins. Once I thought I had scored a broadstruck Shield nickel, only to find in the hand that the edge had simply slipped under the cardboard of the 2x2. Then there's the time I cherrypicked and almost immediately misplaced a proof 1938 Jefferson nickel, that one still bothers me.
For every success story I post here, there is at least one story that ends with my head buried in my hands.
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
@ms71 's look at it upside down trick is a good idea. It makes the brain look at what you're seeing instead of viewing a "coin" or otherwise familiar image. Artists and others use this concept, too.
I do it sometimes, but usually don't take time online to copy and flip a pic...I probably should.
As for fails, mine are ebay purchases from 20yrs ago. Just weren't as nice as I thought they'd be, basement slabbers, things like that. My budget has historically been pretty tight, so no huge losses, just young stupidity.
It works really well for me. It's just random metal you're looking at, and the marks/scratches seem to stand out so much better and attract the eye. I've not found it to be quite as effective on photos as with actual coins, but still helpful.
Coinlearner, Ahrensdad, Nolawyer, RG, coinlieutenant, Yorkshireman, lordmarcovan, Soldi, masscrew, JimTyler, Relaxn, jclovescoins, justindan, doubleeagle07
Now listen boy, I'm tryin' to teach you sumthin' . . . . that ain't no optical illusion, it only looks like an optical illusion.
My mind reader refuses to charge me. . . . . . .
As soon as I saw this title I thought of Fred and the Stella. He has my sympathy.
While not a financial fail, it was a fail for my collection. I bought a Barber Half in a PCI 64 holder. I'm like that's a lock for a 58+. Cracked and submitted...came back a 62. I tried it 4 more times. Came back unc details cleaned twice, Au details once...I'm like WTF! Then it finally came back in a 61 holder and was an easy sale to the 1st person I offered it to for 63+ money.
Wish I had some photos, but I bury my mistakes (sell them asap). As a young collector I was simply too trusting, ignorant and impatient, which led to some pretty expensive lessons. I also learned early on not to trust "bourse" lighting, which can unrealistically enhance luster and eye appeal. The worst mistake I ever made was thinking I could outsmart an experienced dealer and get a real bargain, and I don't mean a cherrypicked coin. I would give specifics but I'm sure there must be a limit on the space allowed for a post.
Have been collecting over 50 years. Mistakes will be made.
1) 31 D dime that would be MS 67FB today but didn't notice scratch on cheek due to a combination of my error and miserable lighting at the auction (coin was raw, everything was back then)
2) 1890 Liberty Nickel in a PC 6 holder that my mentor recommended I buy; turned out a dip went bad and he missed it.
3) 1917 P Type I SLQ in PC 6 FH. Coin recommended by mentor. Coin flashy but had too many contact marks for the grade. This was on me, because I saw it, wondered about it, and decided if he liked it, it must be okay.
Might add - These were the only times my mentor screwed up. He helped me out much more than he screwed up.
Wow. That certainly is the reason I posted and hang out here. I took the original image and did what you suggested. It took something I overlook and placed it front and center. I'll definitely have to use that going ahead. Thanks!
It took me a while to find it. It almost looks camouflaged.
I'm in the bury them phase now. I'm getting a few good picks to remind me what I missed, and then off they go.
I sold an album set of ASEs with silver under $20 earlier this year to finance the purchase of these two coins which I purchased raw from my local coin shop. Sent them both in to PCGS thinking I had a solid shot at AU50 on the seated dollar and 63PL on the CC Morgan.
The seated dollar came back as "authenticity unverifiable" and the CC morgan came back UNC Details Wheel Mark Damage which can clearly be seen in the field around Liberty's forehead. So I am left with a details coin and a coin of questionable authenticity. The ASE set today would be worth about 50% more than what I sold it for. The lessons learned are to buy slabbed, don't buy raw just for the sake of a potential profit if the coin makes it into a holder, and lastly I now believe that most seated dollars that will make it into a holder are already there.
Luckily I don't have too many stories about bad purchases, largely because I spent a lot of my early collecting years without enough money to make financially significant mistakes, so I learned without losing too much. I do have two sales that stick out as learning mistakes.
Years ago I picked up some silver dollars at a good price. One of them I graded at 64, sold it for a decent profit (keep in mind this was back in the day when I had time and not money, so I'd have done anything to make $10, so it may well have been $20 profit). The buyer got it into a 66 slab. I'm not sure where I went wrong with the grade (64 to 66 is a big leap for a Morgan), but I went from being satisfied that I had made a bit of money to being pretty upset about what I left on the table. That said, I was probably more upset that the buyer told me as soon as the grade came back. It's one thing to do well (indeed, I've been on that side, too), but there's no real reason to make sure the seller is aware he screwed up.
Similarly long ago, I bought a nicely toned blue proof Indian cent in an ICG 63BN holder, with the grade limited by some spotting/carbon flecks. I liked the coin, and back then, I couldn't afford much better. I showed it to a dealer who offered me a profit (again, probably $30-40... nothing huge) and the dollar signs won out. Not too long after, the dealer thanked me, telling me that he got rid of the spots and put the coin in a 65BN holder--much nicer, and and much more valuable. I'm still torn on this one. Truth is, if I had known that I could make coin more appealing for $50, I'd have loved to have the coin and have it be better (to be clear, I see careful spot removing as conservation and very different than doctoring in the sense of artificial toning or other surface damage/attempts to mask problems). Perhaps the dealer wouldn't have done the work at a price I could afford (or at all) and let me keep the coin, but I didn't even know such work was possible. Yes, I agreed to the deal, but as a high schooler, I wonder if it should have been obvious that I was well less informed. Again, I probably wouldn't have thought anything of it had I not been told later what the end result was.
At the very least, both of these incidents taught me lessons in how I want to treat others, whether it's giving a kid some leeway over a profit, or being a good winner and not rubbing it in if I come out ahead.
A few that I can recall:
~The 1/2 oz vs 1 oz mistake ....this happened twice where I mixed up a 1/2 oz coin with a 1 oz coin (similar designs and not being alert when bidding). One was silver, so no big deal. The other was platinum, so not great.
~The upgrade ....I bought a nice MS 66 toned Morgan but didn't love it. There was little interest in it but I finally managed to sell it for a $50 profit. That was solid but then I saw it at auction in a 67 holder and it sold for double of what I sold it for (I didn't think an upgrade was certain and I wouldn't have risked cracking, so congrats to whoever took the risk).
One other example is a coin I still have that I stubbornly have submitted several times (the only such example I have). Each time it received a different grade (AU 55, MS 62, and Unc Details). I was surprised with all the results and am still not satisfied (I don't even know if it's circulated or uncirculated
).
There are many, but each came with a lesson - hopefully learned.
I once bought a half-cent from a copper specialty dealer (who doesn’t frequent the boards here). He lauded its qualities, strong-for-grade blah, blah, blah. It looked really nice under bourse lighting. I got it home and suddenly it had a huge area of discoloration that was enormously distracting. It’s something that nobody would miss except under fluorescents it looked ok.
I took it back to the same dealer looking to sell it a year later at the same table and same show. “No, that coin shouldn’t even be in a holder. It’s got a huge problem right here........” He offered me a paltry sum for it and got phenomenally offended when I politely declined. He even ran me off from his table and told me to never come back. It was the darn weirdest thing I’ve ever seen. I mean the guy went apoplectic. I eventually sold it somewhere, at a loss, but I don’t buy coins under bourse lighting any more.
That sounds downright painful. I had one that I misplaced when getting it out of sight when I had some people over. Fortunately, I found where I tucked it a few weeks later. I could only imagine losing something of that importance.
With unlimited funds, it would be interesting to submit a coin like that 30 or so times to see the spread in grading. Once could make a project out of it and some others to see how consistent the grading is.
I've seen several comments about buying under bourse lighting. What is the solution, bring your own lighting, ask to move to a location with good lighting, or simply pass in those situations?
.> @CPJ said:
Practice under different lighting conditions? Carry a loupe with an LED light built in (I do this) along with my other favorite loupe. You could carry a small LED flashlight or something like that? Use the lights that a dealer has set up on his table (you know they are buying things based on what they see under those lights). You don't want to rely on just the bourse lighting, it's almost always terrible.
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
I would like to try that but my funds are unfortunately limited.
The interesting thing with my coin is that I’ve sent it to three different grading companies. I could at least round it out and send it to the 4th top company.
In December 2017, I bought a lovely 3 Cent Silver PCGS MS67 with a CAC from Legend Auctions at a fair price of around $3,950 or so. In August 2019 I had an opportunity to buy an upgrade from Oliver Jung - a real nice 3 Cent Silver PCGS MS67+ with a CAC at a very fair price.
So this past January at FUN I sold my replaced coin to a well known dealer for $3,500, which I still believe was a very fair price. It turns out the dealer went out of business shortly after that. Lo and behold, I see that coin popped up in a GC auction. Yes, it’s easy to second guess, but two bidders went crazy for this coin, and the high bidder paid a hammer of $10,000 ($11k with bp)! Woulda, coulda, shoulda!
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Yes, like someone posted, "interesting thread ". Unfortunate but true. All of our fact based stories. Lol. Many of you guys know one of mine. It's about the 1920s Mercury dime. I sent it in thinking it would come back to be my best coin in my collection. Only to find out, it would turn out to be one of my worst. Lol. Here I was to believe it was all my fault by dipping it into acetone before I sent it out. But by most of you guys reminding and teaching me, that acetone will not harm a coin. Esp. Cause a "Cleaned Designation ". In which I thought was the case. We all came to a conclusion that the coin was most probably cleaned before I even purchased it. This explains why I found it in the junk silver tray. Oh well, it still happens to be one of my special coins in my collection. Because of the story behind it. Lol. Many of you guys, claim, and I concur, the coin today still looks pretty good despite its determination by our Host. From a $1000 coin, in which I thought I discovered for $5, to a "Detailed Coin" that's not worth much at all? Lol That's the Coin hobby for ya. I still love our hobby!
"Jesus died for you and for me, Thank you,Jesus"!!!
--- If it should happen I die and leave this world and you want to remember me. Please only remember my opening Sig Line.Don’t have any coin war stories but plenty of poker stories. Listening to players grumbling on the way out from their latest bad beat reminds me of my poker teacher. Education costs money. I bet those with these coin stories never made the same mistake twice. Hence, education costs money.
"I spent 50% of my money on alcohol, women, and gambling. The other half I wasted.
I'll give ya 10 Bucks for it!
I wish my biggest failures involved not making enough profit on a coin I sold 😞....and I got plenty of those, too!
I'd agree. I'd suspect it was recently cleaned and turned during the time it took to have it graded. Another thought is that the Acetone removed a coating on the coin that then let the air contact to start the oxidation process. It's still a beautiful coin, however.
My failure was getting out of the hobby. Or was it getting in ?
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
I've enjoyed reading the stories, and certainly find them educational. Thanks all for your contributions!
Here's another one of mine as it's Friday. I bought it as a low cost filler as the coin seemed to have some character with light colors on the rim toning. In hand, it looked passable, but the images collected were enough to make me move on from this. The first image used standard lighting and showed some potential. The second was a hybrid axial, and that showed some flaws that made this one qualify for Failure Friday. Specifically, I'm seeing green on the high points of the relief that I suspect is PVC. Even if it's not PVC it's unsightly enough for me to move on.
This one definitely shows the challenges of buying without seeing a coin in hand. In hand, I have to look closely to see the green, and only when I use a specialized photo technique does it become obvious.
Standard lighting
Axial hybrid
I took a look at the TV pics of it, and it certainly is a beautiful coin for the most part! My guess is the cleaning was limited to the fields on the reverse because there is lots of dark toning (and or gunk) around the rims on both sides that I suspect would have been tidied up with a cleaning. Also the toning on the obverse looks pretty old to me.
There definitely could have been gunk or dirt that covered up the hairlines from the cleaning that concealed them before the acetone bath. Interestingly enough, according to the PCGS definition of "cleaned", even a chemical dip doesn't condemn a coin to a problem holder. It has to be some form of abrasive cleaning. Like when I took silver polish to a nice 1917 walker when I was a kid
Successful BST transactions with: Cameonut, Rob41281
When I first started collecting coins for a hobby I bought a partial Franklin album on ebay with about 6 UNC coins in it. When I began filling the rest of the dates, a shop in town (that no longer is in business) "helped" me fill those pages with their inventory of BU Franklins. I spent what for me at the time was quite a bit of money on individual coins. I took their word and believed the grades written on the cardboard holders were accurate. I paid $125 for this particular "key date" which at the time was the most expensive coin in the album. My first membership to PCGS I needed some coins to fill out my submission and decided to send in that "expensive" Franklin from my album and this is what came back.
I paid $125 for an $18 dollar Franklin... I've kept this photo around for years just as a reminder to do my own diligence in learning how to grade a series I'm interested in before jumpnig right in with the wallet.
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Click on this link to see my ebay listings.
Ah, too bad. Not even the FBL's he wrote on the flip. This is a good reminder, like you mentioned. Not only to check more closer for the actual grade/s but to not believe what another might tell you, or in this case, not to believe what's written. Still, Nice coin dude.
"Jesus died for you and for me, Thank you,Jesus"!!!
--- If it should happen I die and leave this world and you want to remember me. Please only remember my opening Sig Line.