You two think fight threads will ever take off on the forum? We have the “Post a ........ for whatever” threads, “Is this a .....” threads, but nothing in the way of pure conflict threads. A mediator could write your intros, weight class, city you hale from, maybe even a little music video to get the blood flowing and then the central argument gets posted and it’s on!!!!!! Don’t stop til heather shows up.
Interesting idea, but after a series of quick knockouts by me, everyone would probably lose interest...
I think there is an underlying NT tone going on but that AT was put on top of it, and ruins it for me. The overlaying purplish toning, the way it seems to sit and pull, and the colors/tone beneath it, mark it for a coin that I wouldn't pursue for being a toned coin.
@CoinJunkie said:
Splotchy, abrupt unnatural color transitions, no "pull away" toning at letters.
This.
Right, wrong, sometimes right, sometimes wrong, I can’t say. The entire subject of AT or NT seems to rest on something akin to “cause I said so.” The grading services being the opinion of authority at least defines things somewhat. As a collector and a peasant one at that, it’s frustrating when there seems to be disconfirming information or varying standards. Below is an MS68+ graded by our hosts that seemingly contradicts all the previous comments. I may have to see how much of that $100 joeykoins has left and get rid of this thing.
This coin is markedly different than the OP coin.
The OP coin is AT.
-Wrong colors
-Wrong progression of colors
-That blue-red splotchy combo is indicative of air transfer toning.
-It does not have elevation chromatics, which also follows a natural progression. Just because colors on lettering differ from their surroundings does not automatically make it NT. Again, can be caused by air transfer.
-The lack of pull away toning is NOT indicative of AT.
-Can't tell from picture, but the toning is likely floating and hazy.
Some refer to overgraded slabs as Coffins. I like to think of them as Happy Coins.
@Ronyahski said:
This coin is markedly different than the OP coin.
The OP coin is AT.
-Wrong colors
-Wrong progression of colors
-That blue-red splotchy combo is indicative of air transfer toning.
-It does not have elevation chromatics, which also follows a natural progression. Just because colors on lettering differ from their surroundings does not automatically make it NT. Again, can be caused by air transfer.
-The lack of pull away toning is NOT indicative of AT.
-Can't tell from picture, but the toning is likely floating and hazy.
I interpret your statement above to mean that not all NT coins exhibit pull away toning, which I agree with.
In your opinion, which of the following statements are true:
A. AT coins can exhibit pull away toning
B. AT coins exhibit pull away toning roughly as often percentage-wise as NT coins do.
@Ronyahski said:
This coin is markedly different than the OP coin.
The OP coin is AT.
-Wrong colors
-Wrong progression of colors
-That blue-red splotchy combo is indicative of air transfer toning.
-It does not have elevation chromatics, which also follows a natural progression. Just because colors on lettering differ from their surroundings does not automatically make it NT. Again, can be caused by air transfer.
-The lack of pull away toning is NOT indicative of AT.
-Can't tell from picture, but the toning is likely floating and hazy.
I interpret your statement above to mean that not all NT coins exhibit pull away toning, which I agree with.
In your opinion, which of the following statements are true:
A. AT coins can exhibit pull away toning
B. AT coins exhibit pull away toning roughly as often percentage-wise as NT coins do.
Thanks in advance.
Between the two, I'll go with A, but substitute 'can' with 'rarely'. I'm not a Morgan collector, which are the coins most noted for pull away toning, so I have no opinion on weight of AT vs. NT pull away toners. All I know is that is that I can count on one hand the AT pull away toners that I have seen.
AT coins with pull away toning can be made from a toneover, that is, coins with pull away toning that are subsequently enhanced with additional toning. I believe that white coins that are sharply struck and/or from early state dies can be ATd with pull away, especially if the artificial toning is not heat induced.
Some refer to overgraded slabs as Coffins. I like to think of them as Happy Coins.
@Ronyahski said:
This coin is markedly different than the OP coin.
The OP coin is AT.
-Wrong colors
-Wrong progression of colors
-That blue-red splotchy combo is indicative of air transfer toning.
-It does not have elevation chromatics, which also follows a natural progression. Just because colors on lettering differ from their surroundings does not automatically make it NT. Again, can be caused by air transfer.
-The lack of pull away toning is NOT indicative of AT.
-Can't tell from picture, but the toning is likely floating and hazy.
I interpret your statement above to mean that not all NT coins exhibit pull away toning, which I agree with.
In your opinion, which of the following statements are true:
A. AT coins can exhibit pull away toning
B. AT coins exhibit pull away toning roughly as often percentage-wise as NT coins do.
Thanks in advance.
Between the two, I'll go with A, but substitute 'can' with 'rarely'. I'm not a Morgan collector, which are the coins most noted for pull away toning, so I have no opinion on weight of AT vs. NT pull away toners. All I know is that is that I can count on one hand the AT pull away toners that I have seen.
AT coins with pull away toning can be made from a toneover, that is, coins with pull away toning that are subsequently enhanced with additional toning. I believe that white coins that are sharply struck and/or from early state dies can be ATd with pull away, especially if the artificial toning is not heat induced.
I have seen that pattern of toning many times. It has the appearance of being placed on the coin. Natural toning has a different look. It is one of those things that you know it when you see it. Looking at lots and lots of coins was how I learned. I never had a mentor or a dealer who taught me. So my description is probably not the best. I might even be wrong but I would not pay any premium for that coin.
@ricko said:
AT...For the reasons above and also.... Look at the dark spots on the rim of obverse...opposing...as if the process required stabilizing at those points or that is where the tarnishing agent was introduced.....Just my observations...Cheers, RickO
@CoinJunkie said:
To the OP: Send the coin to PCGS along with your next submission. If it gets straight-graded, I'll reimburse you the grading fee (minus shipping).
I sent it in walk through, variety attribute, oversized holder, and checked the "Get Brett Down Here to Double Check This" block.
Splotchy, abrupt unnatural color transitions, no "pull away" toning at letters.
This.
Right, wrong, sometimes right, sometimes wrong, I can’t say. The entire subject of AT or NT seems to rest on something akin to “cause I said so.” The grading services being the opinion of authority at least defines things somewhat. As a collector and a peasant one at that, it’s frustrating when there seems to be disconfirming information or varying standards. Below is an MS68+ graded by our hosts that seemingly contradicts all the previous comments. I may have to see how much of that $100 joeykoins has left and get rid of this thing.
" Below is an MS68+ graded by our hosts that seemingly contradicts all the previous comments."
What led you to say that? To clarify, when you wrote "all the previous comments", did you mean comments in the post you quoted or the comments of other posters, as well? Either way, I think the above coin looks markedly different from the one in your opening post.
Speaking to the splotchiness, color, and pull away. The picture of the coin i have (and dislike) and the picture of the MS68+ are not "markedly different." I knew posting it there'd be some boot shiner (guessed you) calling an area of my coin yellow but same color on graded coin "more of an effervescent honey with accents of marigold". The entire subject is debatable and poorly defined. Wish it were otherwise.
We're expressing opinions and mine is that the two coins look markedly different.
Check out how the goose berry emerald flows into the Ice Blue.
I literally had no memory of this thread when it opened to page 2. My first impression of the TrueView was that was NT, nice color progression, and an overall attractive reverse and coin. Scrolling thru the front page, my comment was that it looked AT and I would have passed on the coin. I believe the initial image led me to this conclusion. It still makes the coin look AT to my eyes. Congrats on the 64 grade! This should reaffirm that we can’t grade from photos!
@bolivarshagnasty said:
I literally had no memory of this thread when it opened to page 2. My first impression of the TrueView was that was NT, nice color progression, and an overall attractive reverse and coin. Scrolling thru the front page, my comment was that it looked AT and I would have passed on the coin. I believe the initial image led me to this conclusion. It still makes the coin look AT to my eyes. Congrats on the 64 grade! This should reaffirm that we can’t grade from photos!
Yea there is some pull away toning too that my photos didn’t capture. Either way I learned through the spirited debate and can check the block for a colorful Morgan example in my collection. Thank you and all the others for the inputs.
@jmlanzaf said:
Why did they put a premium on bright white 25 years ago? People dipped everything because no one wanted toning. The experiment has already been done. There was a time when bright white was king. It could happen again.
Artificially white... .
Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc
The coin in the original post looks NT after you adjust for some slight color issues. Even then, the splotchiness in spots of the toning is fine, as is the lack of pull away, because it is still in the correct order.
Pull away is not to be relied upon, it can be faked. I have seen the aforementioned AT/pull away coin in hand before, that fellow is the man who images my coins. I had purchased an AT Morgan and sent it to him for images. He invited me to lunch and gave me a thorough lesson on identifying artificial toning, including an in-hand inspection of 10 or so examples he owned, including that one. It was an eye opening experience.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
I have seen that pattern of toning many times. It has the appearance of being placed on the coin. Natural toning has a different look. It is one of those things that you know it when you see it. Looking at lots and lots of coins was how I learned. I never had a mentor or a dealer who taught me. So my description is probably not the best. I might even be wrong but I would not pay any premium for that coin.
The photos appear to be a tad bit different. Congrats and nice looking coin.
Now that it's been graded and seen in-hand by PCGS..."I knew it was NT all along!"
Congrats on the grade and sticking with your instincts with the actual coin in your possession.
Comments
Interesting idea, but after a series of quick knockouts by me, everyone would probably lose interest...
You may not like my answer, but....
I think there is an underlying NT tone going on but that AT was put on top of it, and ruins it for me. The overlaying purplish toning, the way it seems to sit and pull, and the colors/tone beneath it, mark it for a coin that I wouldn't pursue for being a toned coin.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
This coin is markedly different than the OP coin.
The OP coin is AT.
-Wrong colors
-Wrong progression of colors
-That blue-red splotchy combo is indicative of air transfer toning.
-It does not have elevation chromatics, which also follows a natural progression. Just because colors on lettering differ from their surroundings does not automatically make it NT. Again, can be caused by air transfer.
-The lack of pull away toning is NOT indicative of AT.
-Can't tell from picture, but the toning is likely floating and hazy.
I interpret your statement above to mean that not all NT coins exhibit pull away toning, which I agree with.
In your opinion, which of the following statements are true:
A. AT coins can exhibit pull away toning
B. AT coins exhibit pull away toning roughly as often percentage-wise as NT coins do.
Thanks in advance.
@FadeToBlack posted his experiment a while back. Note the pullaway. Question A applies here.
This thread is now hanging on the definition of "markedly."
And notice that it wasn't ME who took us down the semantic rabbit hole...
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
Ahem, that would be “Mark(edly)” 😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Between the two, I'll go with A, but substitute 'can' with 'rarely'. I'm not a Morgan collector, which are the coins most noted for pull away toning, so I have no opinion on weight of AT vs. NT pull away toners. All I know is that is that I can count on one hand the AT pull away toners that I have seen.
AT coins with pull away toning can be made from a toneover, that is, coins with pull away toning that are subsequently enhanced with additional toning. I believe that white coins that are sharply struck and/or from early state dies can be ATd with pull away, especially if the artificial toning is not heat induced.
Thanks, I very much appreciate your input.
Y> @ironmanl63 said:
Or there's this
I sent it in walk through, variety attribute, oversized holder, and checked the "Get Brett Down Here to Double Check This" block.
Check out how the goose berry emerald flows into the Ice Blue.
Congratulations on getting it graded. PM me your PayPal address and I'll send you $35.
Nah, I was just busting chops. Nice to see honor lives though.
https://images.pcgs.com/source/199013744_large.jpg
I literally had no memory of this thread when it opened to page 2. My first impression of the TrueView was that was NT, nice color progression, and an overall attractive reverse and coin. Scrolling thru the front page, my comment was that it looked AT and I would have passed on the coin. I believe the initial image led me to this conclusion. It still makes the coin look AT to my eyes. Congrats on the 64 grade! This should reaffirm that we can’t grade from photos!
It appears that the color balance was off by a wee bit in the initial photos.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Lol. I take partial responsibility for poor photos.
Yea there is some pull away toning too that my photos didn’t capture. Either way I learned through the spirited debate and can check the block for a colorful Morgan example in my collection. Thank you and all the others for the inputs.
You should. And your penalty will be a giveaway of the coin
.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Congrats. Beautiful coin and beautiful outcome,dude. I'm jealous. Lol
"Jesus died for you and for me, Thank you,Jesus"!!!
--- If it should happen I die and leave this world and you want to remember me. Please only remember my opening Sig Line.But reading the first page it sounds like no one would want it anyway other than the OP.
Maybe if it he dips it then they will take it for free.
"To Be Esteemed Be Useful" - 1792 Birch Cent --- "I personally think we developed language because of our deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
Congrats! Beautiful coin. Coin photography is tricky and changes everything.
I get suspicious when purple shows up on a coin.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
I vote NT. The green looks ok to me same with the purple
Artificially white...
. 
Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc
This thread is a trainwreck.
The coin in the original post looks NT after you adjust for some slight color issues. Even then, the splotchiness in spots of the toning is fine, as is the lack of pull away, because it is still in the correct order.
Pull away is not to be relied upon, it can be faked. I have seen the aforementioned AT/pull away coin in hand before, that fellow is the man who images my coins. I had purchased an AT Morgan and sent it to him for images. He invited me to lunch and gave me a thorough lesson on identifying artificial toning, including an in-hand inspection of 10 or so examples he owned, including that one. It was an eye opening experience.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
The photos appear to be a tad bit different. Congrats and nice looking coin.
Now that it's been graded and seen in-hand by PCGS..."I knew it was NT all along!"
Congrats on the grade and sticking with your instincts with the actual coin in your possession.