A tale of 2 B&Ms
Bochiman
Posts: 25,556 ✭✭✭✭✭
I guess I'm lucky enough to live where there are a few choices of brick and mortar shops.
They don't always have my special wants, but when it comes time to sell generic stuff, it is kind of nice....
I waited until the markets closed yesterday and called a local shop, let's call it "B", that is about 15 minutes away. I asked what price they would pay for a 1 ounce gold (raw) modern commem from the Usmint. First thing I was told was it wasn't an actual ounce of gold (wrong!) and I would need to bring it in. Ok.
Then, this morning, I call another local shop, let's call this one "R", that is 15 minutes in the OTHER direction. I tell him what I had to sell, give him the same info, and he says "$1750".
Since I knew what he would pay, but I was heading, for some other traveling, in the direction of shop "B", I went there. First thing dude did was apologize as he was the one who talked to me on the phone and said he found out, after we hung up, that I was right and he was wrong. That was cool of him to do that...he has never heard/seen of the modern commems before so he learned something.
Then, he went to his boss, and came back, and offered me ~$1680. I just looked at him and said, "I have an offer of $1750 from shop "R" and it is only 10 minutes from here". So, he went back to his boss, asked the most he could offer, and came back to me and offered $1732.
I thanked him for his time, picked up the flip with the coin/commem in it, and left. 10 minutes later, I was walking out of shop "R" with $1750.....less than 3 minutes in shop "R" as he remembered the phone call and looked at it and just said "you want cash?". Done deal. Super easy and super quick.
Time I spent in shop "B" was more than 10 minutes.
I don't blame them for having their own profit formulas but, as a selling customer, I didn't like getting lowballed and then getting a higher offer like the way they did it. Give me your best price, particularly since it was clear I wasn't some dimbulb who ripped it off or inherited it and didn't know better. And, if you can't cover $18 to keep it from a competitor, and you KNOW you can still flip it quickly for more, then that is a bit sad.
And, I KNEW they could quickly flip it because the only other customer in there was asking about buying 1oz gold bars (they were out) and was then looking at other 1oz gold choices.....
I made a little less than I would have gotten selling it elsewhere, but the quick cash, no shipping (I would have sent registered, so that wouldn't have been cheap), and not having to worry about anything was worth it.
And, I then proceeded to quickly hit a local casino with $250 of that and doubled it on craps in a couple of hours while socializing with some friends.....so, that worked out pretty well 
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Comments
You’re lucky to have choices of shops, there are none where I live. They may have thought you were just trying to get more by saying you had another higher offer. I’ve had a more than a few people come to look at stuff, non-coin, and tell me they can get it cheaper from somewhere else. When I tell them to go there instead because my price is good, some still buy from me. It’s a negotiation tactic that doesn’t always work.
Coins and craps on the same day, I’m definitely jealous!
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It was your choice to go to the shop that offered less- they didn't ask you to come in. You could have avoided being lowballed by not doing so, you know. At least shop "R" didn't know you were using their bid to try to get more from somebody else.
They may have thought I was playing games, but, that's only because they don't know me. I don't play games. $18 difference wasn't a big deal to me...it really wasn't. BUT, they played games WITH ME. "Homey" don't play that (if anyone remembers In Living Color TV show...…
I'm a pretty upfront and honest person. And so was the "R" shop guy. That's why, when I got there, I had mentioned it before getting to the counter and he was already asking if cash was ok. Seriously, in and out in less than 3 minutes. I was happy about that part as well.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
You're totally off base, but that's ok.
I didn't try to use one against the other at all. I asked both their best price. Kind of why I called both shops AHEAD OF TIME and asked their offer given where spot was at......I got TWO "best" prices from shop "B" when I went there in person. I mentioned the other shop because it was their chance to get the buy or lose it. They made their choice, I didn't whine or try to cajole. I said "thank you, but I'm heading there".
you really shouldn't try to project the way you think you, or others, may do something when I stated pretty clearly what I did above.
If I had "played the game of using them against each other", I would have said I did that. I went to "B" shop because they were on my way to where I was going. I've dealt with both shops a bit before.
The one thing you had right in your post was that it WAS my choice on going to "B" shop....for the reason I stated just above (and stated in the OP).
Sheesh....some people think everyone is playing games or dishonest with their intentions
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
At least you gave both shops the opportunity to buy the piece.
It seems to me that at the level you sold it at, and the fact that one dealer didn't quite know what it was, that you were selling one of the Commemorative Arts series of gold medals sold by the US mint sometime in the early 1980s. Around here they routinely sell in the 97-98% of melt range to dealers.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
This story seems oddly familiar..🤔
The distance between the shops, the letters B and R...the resulting rigamarole.
I'll bet Bman and myself live in the same district...😅
If you don’t have solid relationships already established, you absolutely have to get multiple bids on your stuff. That’s how you find out the real market (at least as it it pertains to your current available options).
Also, I don’t know that I’ve ever bought a coin in person without offering (or being offered) lower. It’s not games, it’s negotiating and can be done in a professional and friendly manner, and everyone leaves happy with whatever the agreement was (sale, no sale, whatever).
If you say so.
Bingo, Tom!
1982 Louis Armstrong.
I priced it strong on the BST because of the shipping and not knowing who I would be dealing with, as it is an "off piece". I would have negotiated a little with someone on the forums, particularly if I knew them from around here, but, it is what it is.
Quick cash won when I decided it wasn't going to be a super easy sale like a AGE would be. Since I bought it 2 years ago (according to my invoice, 23 months ago actually, almost to the day), it rose >30% (plus I got ebay bucks when I bought it...for $100 of those), so I wanted to lock in the profit.
Sounds like 98.75% of melt wasn't too bad
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
I do and I wasn't trying to play him. I was very succinct and honest about it. No idea why you think otherwise or like you are proving something negative about me. Plenty of people have dealt with me here and I would say 100% would agree I don't play games and am reasonable....and plenty have met me in person and would say the same. I'm just an upfront and honest person. I didn't take HIS offer and told him why.
Sheesh....some people here...think everything is the way they would do things.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
If you leave near, but not in, seattle….it is likely.....
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Btw...on our point about people saying they can get it cheaper somewhere else......I've been in both shoes...as a buyer and a seller.
It's why, as a seller, I don't say one thing that I can't back up (ie...if I say I have a better offer, I am ok with 'you' not matching it because I know I can go elsewhere and get what I mentioned. As a seller, if someone says that, I say "no problem, go for it" as I am never in the NEED of selling my stuff and I'm not a dealer. If I give a best price, then that's what it is. If I give a price, and 'you' buy a few things, I can probably knock a little off and either offer that or am very willing. Just a good way to do it, for me.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
You had a better offer, yet went to the shop anyway. And when the offer there wasn't as good as the one you had elsewhere, you respond "I have an offer of $1750 from shop "R" and it is only 10 minutes from here". So- what were you trying to accomplish with that comment?
Buyer trying to get best price = lowballing
Seller trying to get best price = worked out pretty well
Well, I live relatively near but not in Washington state, so I don't think we're going to the same shops. 😉
But I do think it's interesting and odd that your choice of letters match the proprietor's I frequent.
Or I should say I frequent R and haven't been in to see B for years now.
Dude....I'm done with you....you don't grasp what was said and act like you are trying to prove you were right about me. Go to town....I'm just going to ignore you from here on in as you bring nothing to the discussion of value and just want to be like that, but I will try to make it simple for you....very simple.
Since you weren't there, you are IMAGINING it the way you want.
Yes, I said that. I also was grabbing my flip with the coin in it when I did it. Not in a mean way, just as in a "I'm leaving" way....and he was trying to keep the purchase by going to his boss again. Because I am not a rude person (unlike some, it would seem), I gave him the benefit of my time to see what he would come back with.
It was off by more than I was willing to allow, given what had occurred.
Btw...if I ever put something up on the BST forum that you are interested in, don't be. I don't think I would like to deal with you even if you agreed to a posted price. Thanks
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Thanks for the story. A good time and free casino money is always nice.
If your choice of shop "abbreviations" are what I think they are, I thank you for the intel; although it does not surprise me. After all, advertising isn't free...
The moment you mentioned the quote from the other shop, you played one against the other.
Keep competitors out of any comparisons and you will cultivate more than you can imagine.
Deal where you like and don't mention "other" offers.
You can legitimately ask if one will pay ...x...amount.
Nah...I was ready to leave. Good or bad, I may talk too much, but it is all honest and never meant to play anyone against anyone else. Since I've never owned a shop, and not a dealer, I may look at it differently, but, end of the day, it is what it is....I was getting my flip/coin and heading out....in a nice/pleasant way and not just grabbing and leaving in a huff.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Reply of the day...😅
It's always good and usually easy to find enough info to know within a pretty narrow range what a fair offer is.
Bochiman, as someone who's worked in supply chain management for the past 13yrs or so, I can tell you that you have absolutely nothing to be ashamed of. You didn't have a "better" offer until you were already in the one store in person because they wouldn't give you one over the phone. You provided the amount of your existing offer and gave them a chance to match while you were in their presence, they declined and you went with your better offer. You acted completely ethically and above board.
Whether or not disclose actual offers from competitors is a fun study and can be parsed lots of ways. At my company, I would get fired for it and I have to tiptoe around to make sure I don't do it. In government contracts, you get fired if you don't disclose the name and exact dollar amount. In coin trading, you can get roasted regardless.
I'm glad you got your money out of it and got to see some friends on the proceeds.
I’m the same way, I don’t like lowballs or too much back and forth. Lowballs Just get a simple no and one counteroffer is enough for me. I’m happy to walk away rather than waste time. Sounds like you are the same, I hope you didn’t think I was being critical of what you did, I see no problem with it. I was just trying to relate some similar past experiences.
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I think shooting some craps was a great idea. New shooter coming out! Peace Roy
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@Bochiman .... I believe you did well, and exactly how I would have done it. I consider that process to be totally fair when selling an item. Cheers, RickO
Ron, if after you told shop B that you’d already been offered $1750, they matched the offer, would your have sold to them? Or what if they offered $1755, $1760 or $1765? Or had you decided that you weren't going to sell to them, period?
While in your mind, you weren’t playing one shop against the other, if you would have sold to shop B at or slightly above $1750, in essence, that’s what you were doing. And I think many, if not most others would do the same.
If someone lowballs me, I don’t give them the opportunity to match a fair offer that someone else has made. I want to reward those who are fair and avoid those who aren’t. From what I know of you, I’d bet that you feel the same.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
You effectively did try to use the first offer to leverage the second offer. You need to consider that the 2nd shop may well view that as a tactic on your part, not you being straight forward and honest.
This is why dealers drink.
And while you think $18 is no big deal, it represents a 1% margin. If gold gaps down $20 on Monday, that $18 is gone. You might well have gotten a higher offer on Monday. There is more risk in buying while the market is closed. I will offer less on Saturday than Monday
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
If dealer B might have offered more on Monday, so, too might dealer A.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
You started out saying the two shops were 30 minutes apart - 15m from your location in opposite directions. Later on, you implied it two 7 minutes (10 - 3) to drive to the other shop.
Time has a value also (plus gas, oil, depreciation, insurance, et al)
It is a lot harder to own a store and keep the lights on than you might think...
Risk has a value (the risk the market opens lower on Monday vs. the risk it opens higher) (the risk you - joe shrub off the street who nobody knows who you are is selling a fake)
Capital has a value (tied up) - you think the shop could have flipped it to the customer, except you also admit the counter person didn't know about modern gold... maybe they have dozens in the back that he now knows to offer the customer?
If the customer heard you being paid 1732 and is asked 1750 to buy, does that upset him/her, $18 is a lot of money for 30s of ownership. Except the store takes on some risk - what if what you are selling turns out to be fake?
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
This is true. Or dealer A was filing an order and so there was no risk. So dealer A might be lower on Monday.
Local dealer/friend bought a tenth ounce eagle this friday for $196 to fill an order for a customer. He will not be paying 196 on Monday.
You know how this works, Mark. A single offer on a single item at a single time can have all kinds of variables.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
All I'm going to say is that I wouldn't hesitate to deal with "shop B" solely based on what was posted by the OP.
Even though they offered only $1680? You wouldn’t even “hesitate”?😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Maybe shop B has free donuts.
No need to justify what you did. You did nothing wrong. Good job.
BHNC #248 … 130 and counting.
IF the 2nd shop had upped their price to $1750, they'd have gotten the deal. And the other dealer left out in the cold for being upfront and making a very fair and best offer. Not entirely fair imo. I like a dealer who comes out with a good offer...... and try to reward it whenever possible. Never been in the habit of working dealers against each other to "earn" my business over nickels (in this case 1%). I know many do this though. Not a fan.
THIS
I might hesitate to offer them bullion, but I wouldn't hesitate to deal with them overall based on their reported behavior. I don't see anything unethical about it.
Fair enough. But based on their offer for a bullion item, I’d be very surprised if they typically offer/pay competitive prices for non-bullion items.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Dealing includes purchasing as well. I think you're making some assumptions based on very limited data. Maybe on a more mainstream gold piece, the offer would have been at least as much as shop R, just as one example.
I’m admittedly working with a sample size of only one and therefore, possibly arriving at an incorrect presumption. However, over a long period of time, I’ve observed that most dealers tend to be consistent in their offers and asking prices - they’re generally either competitive (or not) in a large majority of cases. And that’s regardless of market conditions.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
It's SOOO easy to cultivate a great relationship with a B&M shop.
Especially for members of this forum who should have a "leg up" on knowing something about coins and dealer practices.
I don't think this is true. I am not the higher buyer on bullion in my area. I have very good reasons for that. But no one in town would pay more for world-wide collections, for example. No shop in town pays more for U.S. widgets than I do.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
You don’t think it’s true that I’d be very surprised about that? 🤭😮
😉
I assure you, I would.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Lol.
Of course, you knew what I meant.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
Never been in the habit of working dealers against each other to "earn" my business over nickels (in this case 1%). I know many do this though. Not a fan.
Fair enough. But based on their offer for a bullion item, I’d be very surprised if they typically offer/pay competitive prices for non-bullion items.
there really are quite a few variable circumstances that figure into something like this. it might be as simple as one shop not doing much business in bullion or competition between two shops sort of close to each other. some dealers are willing to make less than others so their offers are higher,
my tactic in situations like this was always an easy one. my boss paid pretty strong and fair, so when we'd make an offer and the seller said "So and so offered me $XXXX" I would politely tell them that they should probably go sell to that dealer, it's all really simple. I think like rr on stuff like this, I usually just ask for a "best price" and if it works, fine, I agree. if not, I try to be courteous and move along.
almost every dealer I know has a very good memory, I don't want to be remembered as difficult or a chiseler.
@Bochiman , your only error was not knowing your audience here when posting this. As this forum is made up of more dealers than collectors its not surprising that some here dislike your actions and feel that your actions were; to them; akin to playing the dealers against each other. Likely those who have responded have been or felt that they have been in the position of dealer B, hence the rankled feathers.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
I'm more of a collector than a dealer. I don't necessarily "dislike" the OP's actions, but I do think casting shade on shop B was unwarranted. YMMV. And there was nothing "akin" about it. The one dealer was played against the other. There's not any law against that, just as there's no law against a dealer making an initial offer lower than what they might pay if countered.
Much ado about not much, ultimately.
akin to playing the dealers against each other.
that's what was done.
there's nothing wrong with that, it's not right or wrong and is a tried-and-true tactic, some members(dealers and not) just don't care for it. if you work the counter like I did or are a full time dealer you sort of get used to it, seeing it daily.
If that is the same commemorative I saw on the BST, (Louis Armstrong) , I would have gladly paid the $1750.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
I know there is not a good collectors market for gold commems but IMO you were lowballed by both shops. Current premiums on gold suggest you should have at least been offered spot but if your happy I guess that's all that matters. Regards
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
BOOMIN!™
Wooooha! Did someone just say it's officially "TACO™" Tuesday????
you had your chance, Joe!!!
every market is different and every dealer needs to know his market, what he can sell and for how much. things change a lot in a year, but back in the summer of 2019 when I still worked at the Shop we didn't really have any buyers for these medals. my boss would buy them and offer them for sale but they always ended up going to the melter. that means he had to buy them far enough back to cover himself and I don't recall the 97-98% mentioned by TomB above to be low enough then.