So what is really the thing between Hansen and Lawrence?
Realone
Posts: 18,519 ✭✭✭✭✭
Is it really that he is selling what he has upgraded, or is there another nonpublic arrangement going on to look like he they are selling his dupes/lower graded stuff but in reality its a marketing scheme?.
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I suppose there’s no way for anyone to truly know on the outside. However, I think the question is one of integrity. If DLRC has demonstrated a history of integrity (so far as I know they always have) then I would take them at their word. It’s certainly possible Hansen/DLRC acquires large collections/registry sets for a very small number of coins and intends to sell off the rest.
Why would you post a thread with a question you know no one knows the answer to. Were you actually expecting a definitive answer or just trying to slight the two parties for some reason?
I don't think PCGS' Registry Rules are being followed here, especially with Mercury Dimes. It does not seem like Pedigrees are getting removed. Maybe there are different rules for billionaires? Pedigrees are not getting removed before coins are sold off. https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/benefits
After your initial pedigree, if you upgrade coins from your set and would like the upgraded coin pedigreed, the Reholder fee of $12 per coin will apply for each coin that is Reholdered. PCGS will not pedigree duplicate coins. You must submit both the upgraded coin and the coin it will be replacing. The coin that will no longer remain in your set will be reholdered without the pedigree and returned to you along with the newly pedigreed coin. ($12 to Reholder the coin with the new pedigree and $12 to Reholder the coin that the pedigree is being removed from, 2 X $12 = $24). Your set must remain 100% complete and in the top five to qualify.
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
i'm not piling on but i wondered the same thing. if like what turtle says, there are just crumbs leftover from big aquisitions, then why have the provenance.
maybe it gives some others an opportunity to own a major provenance at an affordable price? maybe just purchased ambiguously in the beginning and there are hundreds of coins with no place in the desired end result. i'll hold and not think something nefarious.
i'd be curious for some insight but not from a negative perspective.
Deep-pocket collectors have often bought up collections, even 'crapola,' in order to get just a few coins they wanted. Then they turned around and sold the discards, frequently at auction. In order to keep things quiet, they frequently resorted to making deals with auction houses to keep their names out of the picture. Thomas Elder did this for favored customers, like William Woodin--some of Elder's greatest sales (e.g., the Gschwend Collection) were actually Woodin's discards. Abe Kosoff did likewise for Ted Naftzger. This sort of thing has been going on for more than a century.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
There are a lot of mutual benefits if you think about it from inventory, storage, software, access to new material, capital, etc. What's the big deal? Good for them.
"Major Provenance?"
He has only been around for a few years. This strikes me more like a major accumulation than a collection. If I were to end up with a coin that had his pedigree on it, the first thing I would do would be to send it to PCGS to remove it...according to the rules, it should have been done anyway, if he has his set in place anyway.
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
I guess it depends. From what I read he collected as a kid and only recently got back into it. It wouldn’t surprise me if he was like a kid in a candy store and bought everything he saw that he liked. Just because he has money doesn’t mean he doesn’t have to go through the same learning curve as everyone else as to what really interests him and where his passion lies with regard to collecting goals.
If I'm understanding what you're asking it's whether they're putting DLH labels on random coins to unload them at higher prices as a marketing scheme? That would be a very deceptive marketing tactic and I would take offense at the accusation if I was either party. Just my opinion.
fair enough. i guess there is some variance to provenance/collection/accumulation etc. for me, 5-6 years (as another member wrote) and the acquisition of as much of the quantity and quality he's obtained, leading to many top sets or even 2nd, in my lowely estimation make it a major provenance. i'd bet he will still be buying after the decade mark as well. just the opinion of the little guy.
for the sake of friendly conversation and reading the opinions of others, what would be the minimum one would need to do to be considered a major provenance in your or others estimation. i'm sure there is a better word than major here but it eludes me.
WTH?
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
I’m going to do my best not to take this as an attack on my personal or my company’s integrity, but it’s difficult to do so. However, for the sake of answering the questions, I'll elaborate a bit.
I can personally attest that every single one of the coins that we have offered have been a part of the Hansen collection. Yes there are quite a few cheaper coins with the pedigree that may not deserve a pedigreed holder, but when someone is attempting to build a complete collection of US coins with major varieties or not in the attempt to fill the holes you are going to acquire some cheap points. The complete set contains over 5,000 pieces and not every finest known coin is going to be available. As a collector, I'm sure that you've bought a number of coins that you've either upgraded later or held on to as it filled a hole and it was the best one that you could find (or afford) at that time. Whether those coins are hole fillers or eventually part of the ultimate (final) set is one thing, but at some point they were indeed part of the collection.
To use any pedigree from a collector as a marketing ploy is the definition of dishonesty in my book. Perhaps there's an upside to doing this in a "the final dollar is the ultimate reward" sort of way, but to know myself or DLRC is to understand that's not in our vocabulary. No mark on my personal integrity would be worth that in the long run.
All of this being said, I can’t imagine that PCGS would be too happy about this as well because it would also be a knock on their integrity. PCGS explicity requested in the beginning that we agreed that we would only do coins that were owned by Mr. Hansen in the special holders...and it would be foolish not to honor that promise that we gave to them. Whether the coins were in the set for five minutes or for two years is another subject, however that's a rabbit trail that's unnecessary to chase at this time.
I'll conclude by inviting anyone of you that have a question on this topic to visit our office in Virginia Beach and I'll be happy to show you our inventory system on the Hansen coins and how we separate the coins in our possession that are for sale. As for the remaining coins in the holders, I would invite you to see the rest of the collection, but it's in a state of organizational progress right now. That being said, you're welcome to reach out to Mr. Currin who is quite prominent here and has been invited to visit the vault to see how the coins and pedigreed holders worked out...
Thanks,
John
President of David Lawrence Rare Coins www.davidlawrence.com
email: John@davidlawrence.com
2022 ANA Dealer of the Year, Past Chair of NCBA (formerly ICTA), PNG Treasurer, Instructor at Witter Coin University, former Instructor/YN Chaperone ANA Summer Seminar, Coin World Most Influential, Curator of the D.L. Hansen Collection
Look closer at major collections like James A. Stack, Robison, Norweb, Pittman, and even Eliasberg. They weren't all gems....far from it....there were plenty of dogs or so-so coins, even low grades. But they bought what was available at the time and tried to complete sets. Let's not hold Hansen to a standard that wasn't even followed by the all time great collectors of decades past.
@JBatDavidLawrence
Your response to this thread is appreciated but what about following the registry rules and removing the pedigree from coins that have been upgraded/updated in the sets?
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
I've wondered the same thing. Lots of DLH labels out there, is he really churning through coins that quickly? If he is, why put the name on them? For example, 3 of the 4 1937 Proof Buffs they have for sale right now are DLH holders.
To be fair, I don't think they are charging any sort of premium for the name, it's just marketing something.
Edit: I see we have some input from the source as I was typing- I appreciate that
Collector, occasional seller
Keyman64, now this is a great question for our generous hosts. I'm not aware of these rules or how these standards are followed in general.
President of David Lawrence Rare Coins www.davidlawrence.com
email: John@davidlawrence.com
2022 ANA Dealer of the Year, Past Chair of NCBA (formerly ICTA), PNG Treasurer, Instructor at Witter Coin University, former Instructor/YN Chaperone ANA Summer Seminar, Coin World Most Influential, Curator of the D.L. Hansen Collection
Now, the history of the Hansen Pedigree label is probably something I should address in a blog. It's worthy of an article that's longer than the post here. If there's enough interest, I'm happy to write that in the next week or two, with photos to go with each.
As far as "why does Mr. Hansen have 3 of these duplicates of 1937 Proof Buffalo Nickels?"...well, you don't even realize that there are 3 more that aren't for sale.
How does he end up with 6 coins? Simply put, when he started, he didn't have an inventory system and when the PCGS Registry didn't accept a serial number, it caused him to buy multiple coins...and that's how we end up with 6 of some coins. Not often, but it has happened. The imperfections of coin dealers websites not being updated in real-time could have some affect on this as well.
President of David Lawrence Rare Coins www.davidlawrence.com
email: John@davidlawrence.com
2022 ANA Dealer of the Year, Past Chair of NCBA (formerly ICTA), PNG Treasurer, Instructor at Witter Coin University, former Instructor/YN Chaperone ANA Summer Seminar, Coin World Most Influential, Curator of the D.L. Hansen Collection
I think "in general". If you upgrade a coin in your set and want it to include the pedigree, you need to send in both coins and they will add it to one and remove it from the other.
PCGS would need to let us know how this is handled when it is not just a name on an insert, but an entire special label.
In my view, these holders are not a pedigree as per the registry, but given to this large collection per some arrangement. I suspect anyone attempting to build such a set would be able to get this treatment.
John, while it came as no surprise to me, that was a very classy response. For what it’s worth, I feel that you’re owed an apology.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@keyman64
I don't think the DLH holders are a set pedigree, but rather a collection identifier. As such I don't think they fall under the set pedigree labeling rules. I could be wrong and as JB said, probably best for someone at PCGS to answer that.
Collector, occasional seller
Lastly, there's one more question that seems to be getting asked indirectly.
Why are we putting his pedigree on the coins?
There are a number of reasons to do so, and I'll do a short list.
1. It differentiates the coins from DLRC's inventory and consignments (over 7,000 coins on our website right now, with 450 or so being Hansen pedigreed)
2. It certainly helps with building marketing to developing a brand. The Hansen Collection has gotten a ton of national media (compared to the overall hobby) in the past 2-3 years and if we're looking to grow the hobby past our limitations of today, this certainly doesn't hurt. Growing the hobby is great for collectors and dealers as it not only brings attention to it, it adds value to your collections.
3. Mr. Hansen enjoys seeing the fruits of all of the work in a consistent form. So, when he sees the coins with a consistent label, it adds to his enjoyment.
4. We've been displaying parts of the collection at national shows over the past 2-3 years and it certainly adds to the eye appeal of the display when the holders are uniform and attractive.
I'll stop there for now, but you can see our intent. Does it help us to market the collection? Of course. But, it serves many other purposes as well and I think that it's fantastic for the hobby overall to get any added attention these days.
President of David Lawrence Rare Coins www.davidlawrence.com
email: John@davidlawrence.com
2022 ANA Dealer of the Year, Past Chair of NCBA (formerly ICTA), PNG Treasurer, Instructor at Witter Coin University, former Instructor/YN Chaperone ANA Summer Seminar, Coin World Most Influential, Curator of the D.L. Hansen Collection
Benefits are seen here: https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/benefits
Rules are seen here: https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/rules
When registry sets are started, one has to agree to these things. From the Registry Forum not long ago, there was an update to rules saying that if a coin is sold and the former owner does not remove the coin from their registry in a timely fashion that their sets could be deactivated from the registry in order to get the point across. https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1038959/fine-tuned-new-registry-rules
So, from that, it would seem that by not following the rules with the removal of the pedigree of coins that have been updated/upgraded then all of those sets could be subject to deactivation for not following the rules...maybe even just before the deadline for Registry Awards?
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
Take a look at this coin... https://www.pcgs.com/cert/06545707
On the Pedigree Line it is identified as what?
Sure, special labels are one thing but PCGS has clearly labeled this as a PEDIGREE in their system.
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
Someone had to agree to the rules when starting the registry sets though...
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
Perhaps you should change the label to say Hansen Hoard!
The dime you posted is currently part of his registry set so it should have the pedigree. Only one of the nickels I referenced above has the pedigree listed in the cert page, even though all 3 are DLH holders. No consistency it seems, I have no idea.
Collector, occasional seller
Interesting. Here is a coin that is currently for sale:
https://www.davidlawrence.com/rare-coin/1828182 It has the label.
When you look it up, it has the pedigree and is NOT in a registry set. https://www.pcgs.com/cert/82619384
Seems like a pretty clear violation of the rules to me.
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
I am rather confused about this whole thing. When it comes down to brass tacks everything a company does is marketing or PR.
I am not into the registry so the name means absolutely zero to me, but many here follow what he does so why shouldn't DLRC put his name on the coins he once owned no mater if they were his best or not.
Make no mistake about it, no matter what anyone says or attempts to bully/shame you into thinking, it’s ALWAYS about money.
🤷🏼♂️
BHNC #248 … 130 and counting.
This isn't going anywhere. Enough!
Are you saying, you know for a fact, he sent in his sets to get the free Pedigree via the registry service? I highly doubt it, and thus his name on the holders has nothing to do with the registry.
I have said nowhere in this thread, any such thing. To say otherwise would be dishonest. To answer your question, no. I have said that I have read the rules and benefits of the Registry and I know you have to agree to such rules when signing up.
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
They are in a partnership so one would assume that the coins that get bumped out of the collection would go through the DLRC Site.
JB is a very good man
m
http://news.coinsblog.ws/2017/12/28/dell-loy-hansen-enters-partnership-with-david-lawrence-rare-coins/
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......