You will see a heavy PM transaction tax long before you will ever see confiscation. Confiscation is a one time collection, taxation occurs each and every time the same piece of metal is sold.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
Under the current situation, with the mint activity marketing gold coins, I can’t see how they could get away with it. Maybe a couple of generations from now, there might be a circumstance where it could be government policy, so I said 50 years.
Still gold is not money, like it was in 1933, so the government might not view it as something it would need to seize in the future.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
The govt can do anything they want, it is all a conspiracy’. The govt has been selling us gold coins for the last 36 yrs to get more gold in the people’s hands so WHEN they take it back that is more FREE gold for Uncle Sam
If the US ever gets that desperate, they will probably fire the private accounting firm they entrusted with the money supply back in 1913 & issue a new currency.
The total value of all the gold in the world is around $10 trillion.
In current U.S. Dollars. Which may or may not be an objective measure of the value of gold in an unmanipulated market.
The "value" of anything is set by the market. Perhaps the government could declare Gold to be worth $100,000/oz and simply pay off our national debt by issuing everyone gold coins with a face value commensurate to that value.
Like the proposed Obama $1 Trillion dollar (which never came into fruition).
Obviously it would cause inflation, as you refer to later in your comment regarding the equilibrium point between inflation and gold values. But nonetheless they could pay for our national debt in the only currency that most Chinese, Indian, and other foreign debt holders trust (historically speaking): Gold.
No one will accept electronic data bits if inflation goes haywire. People will only accept hard assets. Gold, land, guns, etc. If it isn't a physical, tangible object that provides value, no one will take it in a real emergency scenario. I know I wouldn't. Neither would foreign debtholders.
This is why Germany and others have continually and steadily repatriated Gold from our Federal Reserve banks, thousands of armored trucks delivering Gold overseas to their banks. Because they want something physical. Not electronic, or a "promise" of future payment in devalued dollars.
In a real emergency, everything boils down to instinct. Anything artificially contrived blows away in the wind like a dandelion.
@Moxie15 said:
To those who said no, a question...In May of 2019 did you think that the government would or could shut down businesses that they deemed non essential?
@jwitten said:
I never thought Americans would gladly vote for socialists, yet it's happening, so yes, I can see it happening eventually.
Redistribution of wealth puts them purely into communist territory. They call themselves socialists because it sounds a bit less extreme, but have no doubt they share the ideas that this country pushed against for decades during the Cold War.
@oldUScoins said:
US doesn't use the gold standard anymore. Why would the government want your gold?
Because the "fiat standard" is going down the toilet FAST, and Gold isn't going away in terms of value.
To pay our enormous national debt, foreign debtholders will only accept hard payments (such as Gold) if our currency goes the way of the German Mark circa 1923 (hyperinflation).
The U.S. government only honored Gold debts to foreign countries after 1933, at $35 an oz. An inflated value from $20/oz - but still a hard currency. That's because foreign governments have armies, and debts must be honored. Human nature hasn't changed since then, and neither has trust in the natural laws of finances. They will want their debts paid in some reliable form - and the fiat Dollar won't be that currency for eternity. Especially if we keep printing it ad infinitum.
The moment true inflation hits, and the shelves are even more empty - the national debt won't be the only thing we have to worry about. Perhaps riots and looting will take place if the economy is damaged enough. Especially in places that were already suffering.
As another member on here contributed, the idea of a precious metals transaction tax is more likely to occur. Simply whittle away any ability to protect your wealth by taxing the sale, or OWNERSHIP (like annual property taxes) of Gold, and eventually the same result of wealth-confiscation will be achieved.
@oldUScoins said:
US doesn't use the gold standard anymore. Why would the government want your gold?
Because the "fiat standard" is going down the toilet FAST, and Gold isn't going away in terms of value.
To pay our enormous national debt, foreign debtholders will only accept hard payments (such as Gold) if our currency goes the way of the German Mark circa 1923 (hyperinflation).
If our debt holders refuse to accept the freshly printed funny money, the US will say "take it or leave it" and "what ya gonna do about it?" This is why our money is backed by our military and not our gold.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
@oldUScoins said:
US doesn't use the gold standard anymore. Why would the government want your gold?
Because the "fiat standard" is going down the toilet FAST, and Gold isn't going away in terms of value.
To pay our enormous national debt, foreign debtholders will only accept hard payments (such as Gold) if our currency goes the way of the German Mark circa 1923 (hyperinflation).
If our debt holders refuse to accept the freshly printed funny money, the US will say "take it or leave it" and "what ya gonna do about it?" This is why our money is backed by our military and not our gold.
If this happened they would just tell the US government that their credit rating is now zero and the US can borrow money from someone else in the future. Also, they may confiscate businesses and properties owned by US companies in their country to get compensated for the loan that the US government defaulted on.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
The US dropped off the gold standard vis a vis the link to the dollar in 1971. Gold is a barbarous relic. But even the US government mustn't have a lot of faith in itself as it holds quite a bit of gold in the NY FRB and Fort Knox.
In documented human history lots of things have come and gone as currency - cowrie shells, wampun, tea bricks, paper moneys of many varieties - but one thing remains a constant - that barbarous relic. And the firearm that protects it and the family that owns it.
Tir nam beann, nan gleann, s'nan gaisgeach ~ Saorstat Albanaich a nis!
@oldUScoins said:
US doesn't use the gold standard anymore. Why would the government want your gold?
Because the "fiat standard" is going down the toilet FAST, and Gold isn't going away in terms of value.
To pay our enormous national debt, foreign debtholders will only accept hard payments (such as Gold) if our currency goes the way of the German Mark circa 1923 (hyperinflation).
The U.S. government only honored Gold debts to foreign countries after 1933, at $35 an oz. An inflated value from $20/oz - but still a hard currency. That's because foreign governments have armies, and debts must be honored. Human nature hasn't changed since then, and neither has trust in the natural laws of finances. They will want their debts paid in some reliable form - and the fiat Dollar won't be that currency for eternity. Especially if we keep printing it ad infinitum.
The moment true inflation hits, and the shelves are even more empty - the national debt won't be the only thing we have to worry about. Perhaps riots and looting will take place if the economy is damaged enough. Especially in places that were already suffering.
As another member on here contributed, the idea of a precious metals transaction tax is more likely to occur. Simply whittle away any ability to protect your wealth by taxing the sale, or OWNERSHIP (like annual property taxes) of Gold, and eventually the same result of wealth-confiscation will be achieved.
Insidious, but spectacular and plausible.
That is highly speculative and HIGHLY HIGHLY unlikely.
Let's say the dollar devalues to the point of absurdity. 1st of all, if that happens, the value of the debt is all but worthless anyway since it won't scale. But a holder of U.S. debt could only insist on hard asset payments if it has an army big enough to demand hard asset payments. U.S. Treasuries don't come with the option of hard asset payments. They aren't gold certificates.
So if the dollar goes to hell, all the debtors still get paid in worthless dollars.
@derryb said:
When would they confiscate? No way of knowing when they will completely destroy the currency, they've been successful at doing it slowly but surely for over 100 years. Re: the boiling frog theory: At some point the frog is dead.
Oh boy time to get out the tinfoil hat. Bet it gets awfully dark down there in the ole doomsday bunker.
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
BOOMIN!™
Wooooha! Did someone just say it's officially "TACO™" Tuesday????
The real question is: How many treasures are buried already, based on the assumption of confiscation ? Many have been dug up and sent to auction. All hail the auctioneer.
@GRANDAM said:
The govt can do anything they want, it is all a conspiracy’. The govt has been selling us gold coins for the last 36 yrs to get more gold in the people’s hands so WHEN they take it back that is more FREE gold for Uncle Sam
So in theory they are just loaning it to the owners who have paid upfront interest via the mint issue price.
Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
@derryb said:
If our debt holders refuse to accept the freshly printed funny money, the US will say "take it or leave it" and "what ya gonna do about it?" This is why our money is backed by our military and not our gold.
And that will result in revolution.
Just because there is a military does not mean there is not a militia. Or state guard. Or other armed groups.
The value and stability of our currency is not a joke. People's lives and livelihoods depend on it. People feed their children with bread paid for with dollars. If the dollar becomes meaningless, and shelves truly become more empty than they have been lately, and people begin to starve - chaos will erupt.
Asking the question "What are you going to do about it?" to people who have reached the point where they have nothing left to lose, usually results in an ultimate response.
Not a good proposition to find oneself within. But increasingly likely in direct correlation, rising in tandem with severe inflation.
@Tom147 said:
Don't wanna take this thread to far off track. But.... if they come knocking on my door.......well that's also why I'm sitting on a cache of ammo.
I'd like to apologize in advance to anyone trying to take my gold, guns, religion... but sorta not really.
@derryb said:
If our debt holders refuse to accept the freshly printed funny money, the US will say "take it or leave it" and "what ya gonna do about it?" This is why our money is backed by our military and not our gold.
And that will result in revolution.
I'm referring to our foreign debt holders who hold most of our sovereign debt.
Just because there is a military does not mean there is not a militia. Or state guard. Or other armed groups.
The value and stability of our currency is not a joke. People's lives and livelihoods depend on it. People feed their children with bread paid for with dollars. If the dollar becomes meaningless, and shelves truly become more empty than they have been lately, and people begin to starve - chaos will erupt.
You should be preaching this to those destabilizing and devaluing (now more than ever) your currency - the FED and you elected officials.
Asking the question "What are you going to do about it?" to people who have reached the point where they have nothing left to lose, usually results in an ultimate response.
Why your politicians place the strength of its military above all else. The military has been enforcing dollar hegemony throughout the world for decades. Ask any dead head of state who thought he could put an end to using dollars to conduct world trade. Conspiracy theory? Don't take my work for it, Take the word of the most decorated marine in the history of the USMC.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
So if the dollar goes to hell, all the debtors still get paid in worthless dollars.
That is certainly one way to get debt free.
If the US dollar sinks until it is at par with the Zimbanwe dollar, then I'll be happy to pay off the national debt with my 100 trillion dollar note.
That is what debtors want - inflation. Your old debts get paid off in debased dollars. Creditors, therefore, want a premium to hold debt for the very same reason.
To that end, if you look at Treasury yields even for 30 year durations, I think the more likely outcome of this mess is deflation not inflation. No one is demanding a premium to buy debtor instruments.
I think people that keep talking about inflation, inflation, inflation are really ignoring the actual conditions on the ground. We're so used to thinking in inflationary terms, that is our default. In our lifetimes, unless you are pushing 100, all we've known is inflation...until the last 10 years when there is essentially zero inflation despite the massive amounts of debt generated.
People should really look at Japan over the last 20 years. That is far more likely our future.
Comments
To quote Winston Churchill: "Those who fail to learn from history are condemned to repeat it."
I don't recommend living in fear, but I do recommend remaining vigilant.
I never thought Americans would gladly vote for socialists, yet it's happening, so yes, I can see it happening eventually.
You will see a heavy PM transaction tax long before you will ever see confiscation. Confiscation is a one time collection, taxation occurs each and every time the same piece of metal is sold.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
US doesn't use the gold standard anymore. Why would the government want your gold?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_6102
Of course - they do want your money though...I expect higher taxes coming soon! Such is life.
“Never” is a long time.
Under the current situation, with the mint activity marketing gold coins, I can’t see how they could get away with it. Maybe a couple of generations from now, there might be a circumstance where it could be government policy, so I said 50 years.
Still gold is not money, like it was in 1933, so the government might not view it as something it would need to seize in the future.
The govt can do anything they want, it is all a conspiracy’. The govt has been selling us gold coins for the last 36 yrs to get more gold in the people’s hands so WHEN they take it back that is more FREE gold for Uncle Sam
If the US ever gets that desperate, they will probably fire the private accounting firm they entrusted with the money supply back in 1913 & issue a new currency.
My Saint Set
jmlanzaf said :
They have more ammo and bigger guns.
May your soul rest in peace.
I know that. You think I'm gonna say " here ya go " ? Would you ?
Why it happened in the early 1900s. Strange as it might seem. So here we go again.
Never...but eventually, when the world and all the humans on top of it burn down to the ground...gold will still be there for the taking
The total value of all the gold in the world is around $10 trillion.
In current U.S. Dollars. Which may or may not be an objective measure of the value of gold in an unmanipulated market.
The "value" of anything is set by the market. Perhaps the government could declare Gold to be worth $100,000/oz and simply pay off our national debt by issuing everyone gold coins with a face value commensurate to that value.
Like the proposed Obama $1 Trillion dollar (which never came into fruition).
Obviously it would cause inflation, as you refer to later in your comment regarding the equilibrium point between inflation and gold values. But nonetheless they could pay for our national debt in the only currency that most Chinese, Indian, and other foreign debt holders trust (historically speaking): Gold.
No one will accept electronic data bits if inflation goes haywire. People will only accept hard assets. Gold, land, guns, etc. If it isn't a physical, tangible object that provides value, no one will take it in a real emergency scenario. I know I wouldn't. Neither would foreign debtholders.
This is why Germany and others have continually and steadily repatriated Gold from our Federal Reserve banks, thousands of armored trucks delivering Gold overseas to their banks. Because they want something physical. Not electronic, or a "promise" of future payment in devalued dollars.
In a real emergency, everything boils down to instinct. Anything artificially contrived blows away in the wind like a dandelion.
Best comment yet!
Who needs confiscation when certain groups are proposing a wealth tax? Why stop at gold when they can take it all?
Redistribution of wealth puts them purely into communist territory. They call themselves socialists because it sounds a bit less extreme, but have no doubt they share the ideas that this country pushed against for decades during the Cold War.
Because the "fiat standard" is going down the toilet FAST, and Gold isn't going away in terms of value.
To pay our enormous national debt, foreign debtholders will only accept hard payments (such as Gold) if our currency goes the way of the German Mark circa 1923 (hyperinflation).
The U.S. government only honored Gold debts to foreign countries after 1933, at $35 an oz. An inflated value from $20/oz - but still a hard currency. That's because foreign governments have armies, and debts must be honored. Human nature hasn't changed since then, and neither has trust in the natural laws of finances. They will want their debts paid in some reliable form - and the fiat Dollar won't be that currency for eternity. Especially if we keep printing it ad infinitum.
The moment true inflation hits, and the shelves are even more empty - the national debt won't be the only thing we have to worry about. Perhaps riots and looting will take place if the economy is damaged enough. Especially in places that were already suffering.
As another member on here contributed, the idea of a precious metals transaction tax is more likely to occur. Simply whittle away any ability to protect your wealth by taxing the sale, or OWNERSHIP (like annual property taxes) of Gold, and eventually the same result of wealth-confiscation will be achieved.
Insidious, but spectacular and plausible.
If our debt holders refuse to accept the freshly printed funny money, the US will say "take it or leave it" and "what ya gonna do about it?" This is why our money is backed by our military and not our gold.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
If this happened they would just tell the US government that their credit rating is now zero and the US can borrow money from someone else in the future. Also, they may confiscate businesses and properties owned by US companies in their country to get compensated for the loan that the US government defaulted on.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
The US dropped off the gold standard vis a vis the link to the dollar in 1971. Gold is a barbarous relic. But even the US government mustn't have a lot of faith in itself as it holds quite a bit of gold in the NY FRB and Fort Knox.
In documented human history lots of things have come and gone as currency - cowrie shells, wampun, tea bricks, paper moneys of many varieties - but one thing remains a constant - that barbarous relic. And the firearm that protects it and the family that owns it.
The PERFECT plan for retaining your gold is
That is highly speculative and HIGHLY HIGHLY unlikely.
Let's say the dollar devalues to the point of absurdity. 1st of all, if that happens, the value of the debt is all but worthless anyway since it won't scale. But a holder of U.S. debt could only insist on hard asset payments if it has an army big enough to demand hard asset payments. U.S. Treasuries don't come with the option of hard asset payments. They aren't gold certificates.
So if the dollar goes to hell, all the debtors still get paid in worthless dollars.
Oh boy time to get out the tinfoil hat. Bet it gets awfully dark down there in the ole doomsday bunker.
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
BOOMIN!™
Wooooha! Did someone just say it's officially "TACO™" Tuesday????
That is certainly one way to get debt free.
If the US dollar sinks until it is at par with the Zimbanwe dollar, then I'll be happy to pay off the national debt with my 100 trillion dollar note.
The real question is: How many treasures are buried already, based on the assumption of confiscation ? Many have been dug up and sent to auction. All hail the auctioneer.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
If somehow it was needed for a military or technological application and the government was short of a supply-sure.
So in theory they are just loaning it to the owners who have paid upfront interest via the mint issue price.
And that will result in revolution.
Just because there is a military does not mean there is not a militia. Or state guard. Or other armed groups.
The value and stability of our currency is not a joke. People's lives and livelihoods depend on it. People feed their children with bread paid for with dollars. If the dollar becomes meaningless, and shelves truly become more empty than they have been lately, and people begin to starve - chaos will erupt.
Asking the question "What are you going to do about it?" to people who have reached the point where they have nothing left to lose, usually results in an ultimate response.
Not a good proposition to find oneself within. But increasingly likely in direct correlation, rising in tandem with severe inflation.
I'd like to apologize in advance to anyone trying to take my gold, guns, religion... but sorta not really.
Nationalize the gold mines, skip sunshine mint making the planchets, west point does it all.
I'd like to hope that's what happens before door to door confiscation.
I'm referring to our foreign debt holders who hold most of our sovereign debt.
You should be preaching this to those destabilizing and devaluing (now more than ever) your currency - the FED and you elected officials.
Why your politicians place the strength of its military above all else. The military has been enforcing dollar hegemony throughout the world for decades. Ask any dead head of state who thought he could put an end to using dollars to conduct world trade. Conspiracy theory? Don't take my work for it, Take the word of the most decorated marine in the history of the USMC.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
That is what debtors want - inflation. Your old debts get paid off in debased dollars. Creditors, therefore, want a premium to hold debt for the very same reason.
To that end, if you look at Treasury yields even for 30 year durations, I think the more likely outcome of this mess is deflation not inflation. No one is demanding a premium to buy debtor instruments.
I think people that keep talking about inflation, inflation, inflation are really ignoring the actual conditions on the ground. We're so used to thinking in inflationary terms, that is our default. In our lifetimes, unless you are pushing 100, all we've known is inflation...until the last 10 years when there is essentially zero inflation despite the massive amounts of debt generated.
People should really look at Japan over the last 20 years. That is far more likely our future.
[In my ever humble opinion, of course.]
If gold is all you have to pay your taxes, then sure.
An old timer once told me . In a coin shop of all places. "Taxes, Insurance and Inflation, Avoid all three and you will be rich" Haha
100% Positive BST transactions