How do I file a significantly not as described claim on eBay?
GRANDAM
Posts: 8,771 ✭✭✭✭✭
I clicked on request a return but I don't see that option.
The closest is doesn't match description or photos. Seller doesn't accept returns so I want the right option to be able to return the coin. I ordered a PCGS MS70 2018 Krugerrand and photos are stock photos. I specifically stated no spots, finger prints or haze and their photos didn't show any but I got a badly spotted coin, I realize the coin wasn't spotted when graded but it is now and it is no longer a MS70 coin.
Yea, I gotta quit buying MS70 bullion but I have some raw Krugerrands that I have had since 2017 and they have not spotted but I soak all silver in acetone before putting them away for storage. I wish all submitters did.
Is SNAD still an option?
GrandAm 
1
Comments
definitely a snad
It'll be interesting to see where this thread goes...
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
Just out of curiosity, you stated no spots but did they ever agree to no spots? Or was that just your message to the seller at check-out.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
Spotting Not As Described.
By accepting the money the seller also accepted the buyers stipulations, if the seller failed to read those requests by the buyer then that is on the seller. SNAD is the right way to go, with the understanding that you might (for sure would by many sellers here) be blocked by the seller.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
I wasn't trying to start anything, but I disagree. It matters how it was presented. If I bought a slabbed coin and typed in the special instruction box that the "coin must upgrade on resubmission" would that constitute a binding contract? Isn't the contract written when you click the "Buy" button not when you add your own conditions later?
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
I haven't had to file a snad yet(knock on wood)...but I would think the choice would be not as pictured or described.
If it were me I would block myself. The heck with the seller blocking. I don’t care if the big eBay sellers want to scream about my opinion
I might scream, except I'm not sure what that even means.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
I disagree. It's more like, by bidding, the buyer accepted the seller's terms and conditions, as long as they complied with EBay policies
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Me either, I think that the seller had the opportunity to cancel the deal after the buyer hit buy if the buyers conditions couldn't be met. Once the seller accepted the monies and sent the coin the seller is responsible for meeting the buyers conditions, imo. Its quite possible that a big seller like AMPEX (just an example I don't know the seller) might employ an entry level employee who just enters and fills orders without regard to looking at any buyer communication.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
I don't think that's how the eBay terms work. If you click Buy it is a committment to buy.
You do realize the burden that your suggestion would put on sellers. Let's say you buy a raw gold eagle for $1800 on eBay and then specify that it must 65 or better at PCGS in the "instructions" box. You've totally effed the seller. If he cancels on you, he has to eat $55 in non-refundable PayPal fees. If he ships and the coin only 64s at PCGS, then he has to pay round-trip shipping plus $55 in non-refundable PayPal fees.
When you commit to buy, you've committed to buy at the terms PRIOR to the commitment. You can't arbitrarily re-write the contract.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
Yes, I agree. That's why I said that I wondered where this was going to go as a thread.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
The seller showed a MS70 coin with no spots, stock photo with #00000000 serial number. We all know a MS70 with spots is no longer a MS70 coin, you can’t show a clean coin and send a spotted coin and expect a buyer to be happy, I am hoping the seller just didn’t notice the spots and all will work out, it is a BIG eBay seller, not a one guy operation.
I did put the no spots in the PayPal payment notes, regardless coin is not as described.
If a seller blocks me for this then the heck with him.
Haven’t done eBay in so many years. Glad my memory gets refreshed on an almost daily basis. Everybody’s a big business person, till they aren’t. Have fun folks.
Your comparing apples to oranges, buying a slabbed coin that is represented in the photos as perfect is exactly what the buyer asked for and expected to receive, not a spotted mess. If the seller is not selling what he shows and represents in the auction photos then a SNAD is deserved. Buying a raw coin and then placing special conditions about grading after buying would be unreasonable and I'm sure that Ebay would side with the seller in a case like you outlined.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Big difference in stating no spots and must upgrade or cross at same grade.
I will say I absolutely will not buy a coin from a stock photo! There are several big sellers that use them for collectable coins and it blows my mind!
While it's obviously too late now, it would have been much better to message the seller before bidding, and see if he was willing/able to provide you with a spot-free example.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I 100% agree with you on this point.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Your best bet is to call them (or e-mail them) and let them propose a solution. That way, you end up with one or two disappointed people, but it's done and taken care of. File a SNAD and you'll end up with one or two disappointed and angry people.
Regardless of buyer notes- That coin is not MS70 and shouldn't be sold as such. Someone is trying to make their problem someone else's by selling it with file photos.
Was there a premium above bullion for this? If not I wouldn't bother doing anything. If a premium was paid for MS70 grade then you were wronged and something should be done to make it right.
Collector, occasional seller
Going by what I read a lot on here if buyer asks a question a lot of sellers block because of a potential problem buyer.
Must be a lot of power felt in all this.
Actually I did message the seller first and explained. They told me to file a return request with photos which I did. I always message a seller first and give them a chance to fix the problem. As a seller I appreciate that when it is done for me,,,,,, (even though I have very few returns or problems in any given year) I just wanted to make sure I chose the right option and didn't give anyone a way out for sending a spotted coin. I have purchased many coins from the seller and never had any problems,,,, not sure if they will remember that because as I said a big seller. I also ordered a PCGS MS70 2019 Krugerrand from them and it is PERFECT.
An honest seller will replace or refund,,,
If you specifically stated in a message to the seller, no spots.....then that's it. No spots. Ebay will accept the return since it doesn't match the agreed description. Stock photo is meaningless and irrelevant if you discussed what you wanted. If the seller doesn't cover your return, Ebay will.
So what was their reply? Or did I miss that?
IMHO, the seller should be ashamed of himself for selling that coin with a stock photo and no written disclaimer of the spotting. And he should have his head examined if he's the least bit surprised or upset that a buyer would want a return. Flame away.
Again, not trying to start anything. Just curious.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
No, it's apples to apples. Plug in any condition you want, you're still adding a condition after the sale.
And, it sounds from the OP that he knew it was a stock photo when he bought it. So he knew he wasn't getting the coin pictured.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
If a coin has a serious defect and the seller didn't mention it or describe it in his listing, I consider that to be a case of SNAD.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
In a legal sense, I'm not sure there is. In either case, a condition is being added after the sale. That was my only point. And my comment is completely generic, I don't mean it to apply directly to you.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
He didn't "discuss what he wanted". He inserted the condition in the instructions along with his payment.
IMHO that makes a huge difference. The sale has already occurred before the condition was ever seen by the seller. The condition was never agreed to by the seller. And the seller is already on the hook for non-refundable PayPal fees by virtue of the payment.
That said, eBay will force the return on the seller no matter what. [I'm curious how people like @derryb would see this because we just had a recent thread about the problem of eBay returns.]
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
Click on help in your ebay and get the phone number and call your complaint in. This worked for me.
When a seller has an eBay store you go to your seller hub to print labels and invoices, It is easier and cheaper, buying shipping labels via eBay you get a significant discount. When you are looking at your list of items waiting to ship and the buyer has sent you a note it is highlighted in RED letters so if you don't see it you are using the "BRAILE" version of seller hub.
eBay doesn't answer the phone,,,,, STILL, I fear they will never answer phone calls again.
I didn't add ANY conditions I just pointed out that I wanted to be sure that I was getting what was advertised,,,,, a MS70 coin.
I am beside myself that ANYONE here would try to justify a seller sending spotted piece of crap like I got when selling a MS70 coin. I have sold spotted coins and I ALWAYS point that out and call attention to them as I don't want the hassel of dealing with an unhappy buyer,,,,,, maybe that is why I have 100% positive feedback and 5893 transactions and NO negatives ever. If the seller asks I would pay to ship it back myself and his PayPal fee's but I shouldn't have to.
Sounds like everything's under control then. If they want you to request a return then they will likely accept it and go from there.
Collector, occasional seller
Always file your claims with paypal. They have the money that you want returned and from my experience are much more likely to return it.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
I don't understand how anyone can give an opinion only hearing one side of the story.
Wisdom has been chasing you but, you've always been faster
The other side of the story is the spotted coin.
I would link the auction but I don't want to call out the seller.
I haven't heard back yet. I messaged and filed the return this morning.
I'm not sure what version of the "other side" would make this sale OK. If they had mentioned a badly spotted coin I'm sure @GRANDAM would not have bothered with the listing and certainly wouldn't have brought it up here.
Collector, occasional seller
I trust GRANFAM to give a fair and honest description of what transpired. He is a long time member in good standing of the Circle of Trust.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
What collector anywhere in the world would buy an MS70 coin, and be happy with the coin the OP received?
I don't think that's the point.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
Color me naive, yet shouldn't a collector take it for granted an MS70 coin doesn't have spots?
.
Unfortunately, no, as many 70’s end up with some degree of spotting.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
If you are selling an MS70 that has spots it should be clearly noted as having spots. An MS70 coin does not have spots. If it develops spots it is no longer an MS70 coin. I would think the great Feldini would agree with that statement. Would Heritage sell an MS70 coin with spots without noting so or at least showing clear photos that show the spots. Anyone who thinks selling an MS70 coin with spots without saying so OK is not someone I want to deal with.
I have not heard anything from the seller but I HOPE they make it right. I am sure a stock person just pulled a coin out of a box of 20 and didn't look at it. The seller has a good reputation and I want to believe that they didn't send a spotted coin knowing that it was spotted.
Ideally, a coin graded 70 would not be spotted, but many are.
As a real life example from earlier today - a client wrote in, asking if any from a group of Proof 70 ASE’s were spotted. I glanced at them and replied (something to the effect) that a number of them did exhibit some spotting.
In answer to your question, Heritage shows images of the actual coins being auctioned or offered for sale.
For the record, I’m personally opposed to stock images with respect to coins where the quality and/or appearance matters. And I think the seller should absolutely give you a refund.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
PCGS's policy seems to agree that some MS70s will end up spotted...
PCGS Modern Silver Coin Spot Policy
When initially grading modern silver issues, PCGS will deduct for spots that are already evident. If coins spot after they are graded by PCGS, they are not covered by the terms of the PCGS grading guarantee. We anticipate that a two-tier market (spot-free and spotted) will develop, much as it has in the past 10 years or so in the U.S. generic gold market.
https://www.pcgs.com/silver-coins-spot-policy
Oh boy, this is a fun one. I'm going to try to respond from two perspectives at the same time. First, I sell a ton on eBay and I do everything I can to make sure my listings are accurate, though I'm only human, and I know that limits my ability to achieve perfection. Second, I know well that it sucks to buy something and not get what was advertised. I hope what I say can be useful to this particular instance, and in general, as well.
I have an eBay store, and I have never used the seller hub to print a label, and I've had my store for longer than the hub has existed. At a certain volume, there are outside tools that process orders in bulk far faster than anything the eBay website can do. When I've had to print 100 invoices and shipping labels together, I can click one button in the software I use and then just sit back for the printing to happen. The comments in my software are not big and red, and admittedly I don't always see them. I would not be surprised if your comment wasn't seen.
Let me play devil's advocate here. I have sold hundreds (thousands?) of graded silver bullion coins over the years, and every time I handle them, I'm afraid I'll miss haze or spotting somewhere (sometimes it's obvious, and sometimes it takes the right angle to see it, especially if it's a tiny spot, rather than something huge). That said, I don't sell with stock photos (I also don't carry an inventory where I have quantity of anything, and everything I sell is at auction, not fixed price), so the odds that I miss spotting/haze AND the photo doesn't show it is slim. That said, my experience has taught me that it's very easy to imagine having 500 of a generic coin like this, for which a stock photo is appropriate. And because it's generic, it would be treated as a commodity--when filling an order for X coins, just grab X coins. Especially given that many larger firms have shipping departments made of people who aren't coin experts, I'd be willing to bet no one saw the coin before it went out.
Now, to be clear, I am NOT saying the seller is off the hook as a result of this. I'm just trying to say that it's very easy to understand how this occurred, and I'll bet it has nothing to do with malice or unscrupulous behavior on the seller's part. From what Grandam wrote, I don't see anything that said the seller is surprised or upset about the return. Grandam emailed the seller and the seller said to open a return. I'd prefer to handle things outside of the eBay return system (and for that, I appreciate Grandam emailing the seller rather than just opening a case), but I can imagine that the return system may be easier for some to use, especially larger operations where multiple people/departments may be involved.
These statements are wrong. When a buyer pays, they have completed the transaction for the item described by the seller. In this case, it was a PCGS MS70 Krugerrand. There is no place for the buyer to change anything about the sale, in particular because if the seller doesn't agree to whatever stipulation the buyer throws in, the seller is out the full PayPal fee to refund the money for a sale that never even happened. Now, in this case, while the seller could argue that the coin sold was the coin received (I'm assuming the listing didn't say anything about hazing or spotting), it's a simple case to make that the coin is significantly different from what was shown in the stock photos, so the buyer is still right to say the coin isn't as described, but not because of a stipulation made in the order comments.
There have been many examples earlier in the thread that explain why these stipulations shouldn't hold weight, but I'll add one more that could be more appropriate for this transaction. Suppose the listing said "coin may have spotting." That would likely mean that the seller has many coins, some are spotted, and you'll get the first coin that's picked out of the box. A note that says "send a coin without spotting" does not entitle you to a SNAD when a coin with spotting arrives. The coin was as described by the seller, and if you don't agree to what the seller has put forth, you must either make an agreement with the seller PRIOR to the sale or buy somewhere else. Many times, sellers have various varieties of the same item (in particular, think about items that come in multiple colors). To save on the cost of treating each variety as different (stored in a unique place, fulfilled by variety, and no worries about stock levels of individual varieties) they treat them as the same and send a random one. It is unreasonable to expect that you could request something specific and get it. The price being charged is based on what the seller advertised, and writing a note to get something beyond what was advertised doesn't entitle you to automatically get what you asked for without paying the additional costs associated with the request, threatening a SNAD if your request isn't met.
This is completely correct. Beyond its general application any time there is a stock photo or whenever you are not certain about an item, it's particularly appropriate with this type of item. So many silver bullion coins have turned and spotted (sometimes within a year--I've handled plenty of spotted 2019 coins already, some many months ago) that I would assume any coin will be spotted unless it is described as otherwise or there is a photo of the coin you will receive. If there's any question, ask prior to buying.
To expand on this, in particular with silver bullion coins, many coins develop spotting after they are holdered. When graded, they are real 70s with no spots. Some time later--could be a few months, could be years--spots or haze can develop, from very light to nearly covering the coin. Yes, the coin would no longer grade 70, but it's still in a holder that says 70.