I have never gotten an MS60, 61 or 62. Many 58's and 63's but never those dreaded grades. I cannot fathom PCGS's thought process regarding these beauties. I absolutely love them.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
some of these have obvious rub PCGS couldn't have missed
if they have obvious "rub" as you stated than they should be graded correctly as AU__ . to my way of thinking it is one thing to "market grade" a point based on eye appeal --- from MS63 to MS64 --- but it is entirely a different thing to go from AU to MS.
I will stop there because I like being a member here.
Ah! The quest for that elusive AU58+! How many times have you tried them?
@lkeigwin said:
PCGS assigned the same grade to all of these bust halves. What grade is it?
ANSWER
Here are slab shots of one. Thoughts? I have some, and some questions.
One is not all MS61's are "ugly or otherwise impaired coins that if they had a small touch of wear they would not likely grade AU58..." (a quote from another thread by a very well respected member and excellent grader). Many of us share this view.
Another is that some of these have obvious rub PCGS couldn't have missed. Technical AU's. Were they market graded? Why as 61's, a grade many of us run from? AU58+ seems a better fit.
Are low grade MS bust halves viewed differently by graders than, say, low grade MS Morgans?
@amwldcoin said:
Ah! The quest for that elusive AU58+! How many times have you tried them?
A few I bought as 61's. Several were 58's years ago and were regraded before PCGS had the "reconsideration plus-only" service (which you can use today to try to turn a 58 into 58+, no higher).
Now, as MS61's, I can't use that service to get them where they probably belong without cracking them. And I don't like to take chances with toned coins.
I still need a dozen or so 58+ halves to have a perfect everyman set (of 33). But I don't see it happening. They're very scarce and I won't buy a 58+ I need if I don't like it. My onetime #1 set (prior to plus grading) is destined to live in 2nd place. C'est la vie.
Lance.
I have a big problem with the current AU58-MS63 grade range. We have the system we inherited, I suppose. Grading and pricing aren't exactly the same thing and that's the rub, pun-only-slightly-intended.
A bit of wear is only one of the many "bad" things that can happen to a coin and we've historically treated even a minuscule, tiny, almost imperceptible amount of wear as the kiss of death, forever banishing a coin from the hallowed, exalted ream of uncirculated coins. Is a small patch of wear really more objectionable than the barb-wire-fence thrashing that many silver dollars exhibit at MS61? How about a dipped-to-death dull coin that rings in at MS62? Give me one of these CBH beauties any day of the week.
Every price guide in the world lists a higher price for an MS60 coin than the same coin at AU58. That makes no sense to me and doesn't reflect what people are actually paying. Maybe it works for comparing a baggy 58 with a baggy 61, but the usefulness ends there. AU63 is the correct grade, but doing that opens up its own very large set of problems.
I'm pretty sure the OP didn't pay MS61 prices to acquire most of these. Beauties like this probably trade closer to quoted prices at MS63..... so even at MS61 they still aren't "market graded."
Beautiful coins Lance. I have no problem with any of them in a 61 holder. To me a "rub" does not knock a coin out of MS. I know (I heard a cringe) most would disagree. But what if a MS coin was put in a holder out of the mint and a slide or some other way produces a rub. The coin has still not seen circulation and thus MS.
If you want an AU58+ in this market(or PCGS's scheme) you have to pay the price....IE try and try again. My next to last submission I had one that I cracked out of a 61 holder and got it into a 58 holder...then tried it again under the + review. Didn't get it(That was the top choice out of 20 that 1/2 a dozen serious aficionados thought was a lock +). The 1 that did I had submitted 5 times even with a show express in the mix before I got the coveted +! My average is approaching 4 submissions to get a +.
@amwldcoin said:
Ah! The quest for that elusive AU58+! How many times have you tried them?
A few I bought as 61's. Several were 58's years ago and were regraded before PCGS had the "reconsideration plus-only" service (which you can use today to try to turn a 58 into 58+, no higher).
Now, as MS61's, I can't use that service to get them where they probably belong without cracking them. And I don't like to take chances with toned coins.
I still need a dozen or so 58+ halves to have a perfect everyman set (of 33). But I don't see it happening. They're very scarce and I won't buy a 58+ I need if I don't like it. My onetime #1 set (prior to plus grading) is destined to live in 2nd place. C'est la vie.
Lance.
Some of the coins have clear rub. They are all very attractive so I guessed 58+. If MS they appear to be no brainer 63 or 64. Would never have guessed all 61!
I wanted to say 58 but some of the coins looked MS, while instead, others did look AU, so I just waited to see.
This is a good post, Lance, as I feel that it can be used as a teaching tool.
I honestly have difficulty differentiating rub from strike softness on Busties, especially, on that curly wave of hair on the right facing side....just under the cap.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
I believe you nailed it, low MS bust coins grade different than beater Morgan's...
Logically a 60 or a 61 should be a nicer coin than a 58. And in some series that might actually be the case?
With millions of "BU" Morgan and Peace dollars available, there has to be a fugly bottom feeder catch-all grade for all the bags of UNC junk the tpg's get.
This was interesting. 61 was not on my short list, and from the photos, I really can't justify the grade on any of the coins. They all have average to above average eye appeal, which doesn't fit with 61 in my book. I'll amend my previous post to recommend that you send me these along with some 63s so I can learn where I went wrong.
Thank you, Lance. The CBH is an open collar coin. A looker, on a nice day can range anywhere from a MS 58 to an MS 63 these days. The first thing to look for re wear is luster breaks, as many die pairings were not fully struck, and even in MS 65 and MS 66, will lack some detail.
The first things I look at are the wingtip on the viewer's left, and the beak, head, and feathers above the eye. If there's a luster break and lack of detail, it's an AU coin. But if there's a lack of detail here and no luster break, it's an Unc.
Comments
I have never gotten an MS60, 61 or 62. Many 58's and 63's but never those dreaded grades. I cannot fathom PCGS's thought process regarding these beauties. I absolutely love them.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Interesting results
Successful transactions with : MICHAELDIXON, Manorcourtman, Bochiman, bolivarshagnasty, AUandAG, onlyroosies, chumley, Weiss, jdimmick, BAJJERFAN, gene1978, TJM965, Smittys, GRANDAM, JTHawaii, mainejoe, softparade, derryb, Ricko
Bad transactions with : nobody to date
some of these have obvious rub PCGS couldn't have missed
if they have obvious "rub" as you stated than they should be graded correctly as AU__ . to my way of thinking it is one thing to "market grade" a point based on eye appeal --- from MS63 to MS64 --- but it is entirely a different thing to go from AU to MS.
I will stop there because I like being a member here.
Ah! The quest for that elusive AU58+! How many times have you tried them?
I'm guessing that's backlash against the old AU63 issue. I think 58+ better than 61, but they are all SWEEEEETTTTT!!!!!
A few I bought as 61's. Several were 58's years ago and were regraded before PCGS had the "reconsideration plus-only" service (which you can use today to try to turn a 58 into 58+, no higher).
Now, as MS61's, I can't use that service to get them where they probably belong without cracking them. And I don't like to take chances with toned coins.
I still need a dozen or so 58+ halves to have a perfect everyman set (of 33). But I don't see it happening. They're very scarce and I won't buy a 58+ I need if I don't like it. My onetime #1 set (prior to plus grading) is destined to live in 2nd place. C'est la vie.
Lance.
Good thread.
I have a big problem with the current AU58-MS63 grade range. We have the system we inherited, I suppose. Grading and pricing aren't exactly the same thing and that's the rub, pun-only-slightly-intended.
A bit of wear is only one of the many "bad" things that can happen to a coin and we've historically treated even a minuscule, tiny, almost imperceptible amount of wear as the kiss of death, forever banishing a coin from the hallowed, exalted ream of uncirculated coins. Is a small patch of wear really more objectionable than the barb-wire-fence thrashing that many silver dollars exhibit at MS61? How about a dipped-to-death dull coin that rings in at MS62? Give me one of these CBH beauties any day of the week.
Every price guide in the world lists a higher price for an MS60 coin than the same coin at AU58. That makes no sense to me and doesn't reflect what people are actually paying. Maybe it works for comparing a baggy 58 with a baggy 61, but the usefulness ends there. AU63 is the correct grade, but doing that opens up its own very large set of problems.
I'm pretty sure the OP didn't pay MS61 prices to acquire most of these. Beauties like this probably trade closer to quoted prices at MS63..... so even at MS61 they still aren't "market graded."
Huh....60 and 61 were guesses I would not have made. 62-63, even 64? Sure. 58-58+? No issue.
But I hear you on 61 not necessarily being a "mark of death". While I don't have any 61's myself, I have more than a few 62's that I'm proud to own.
Beautiful coins Lance. I have no problem with any of them in a 61 holder. To me a "rub" does not knock a coin out of MS. I know (I heard a cringe) most would disagree. But what if a MS coin was put in a holder out of the mint and a slide or some other way produces a rub. The coin has still not seen circulation and thus MS.
If you want an AU58+ in this market(or PCGS's scheme) you have to pay the price....IE try and try again. My next to last submission I had one that I cracked out of a 61 holder and got it into a 58 holder...then tried it again under the + review. Didn't get it(That was the top choice out of 20 that 1/2 a dozen serious aficionados thought was a lock +). The 1 that did I had submitted 5 times even with a show express in the mix before I got the coveted +! My average is approaching 4 submissions to get a +.
Some of the coins have clear rub. They are all very attractive so I guessed 58+. If MS they appear to be no brainer 63 or 64. Would never have guessed all 61!
Crack'em all out and send them back in!!
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
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I wanted to say 58 but some of the coins looked MS, while instead, others did look AU, so I just waited to see.
This is a good post, Lance, as I feel that it can be used as a teaching tool.
I honestly have difficulty differentiating rub from strike softness on Busties, especially, on that curly wave of hair on the right facing side....just under the cap.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
^^This^^
I'll buy 61's like that all day long...
I believe you nailed it, low MS bust coins grade different than beater Morgan's...
Logically a 60 or a 61 should be a nicer coin than a 58. And in some series that might actually be the case?
With millions of "BU" Morgan and Peace dollars available, there has to be a fugly bottom feeder catch-all grade for all the bags of UNC junk the tpg's get.
Hey! I was the first to guess MS61. Do I get the pick of the litter?
This was interesting. 61 was not on my short list, and from the photos, I really can't justify the grade on any of the coins. They all have average to above average eye appeal, which doesn't fit with 61 in my book. I'll amend my previous post to recommend that you send me these along with some 63s so I can learn where I went wrong.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
Thank you, Lance. The CBH is an open collar coin. A looker, on a nice day can range anywhere from a MS 58 to an MS 63 these days. The first thing to look for re wear is luster breaks, as many die pairings were not fully struck, and even in MS 65 and MS 66, will lack some detail.
The first things I look at are the wingtip on the viewer's left, and the beak, head, and feathers above the eye. If there's a luster break and lack of detail, it's an AU coin. But if there's a lack of detail here and no luster break, it's an Unc.
Well...I guessed 62, so not far off... and I stand by my qualifying statement (58-63 if I were grading)....Cheers, RickO