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Does ICG grade Proof coins as MS state?
isaiah58
Posts: 385 ✭✭✭
I found a number of very shiny Franklins listed on eBay as MS graded by ICG. They are the best condition for Proof coins. But it appears to me that they are proofs. I am linking one below. If looks like ICG does not provide images but does a simple data verification. I see why they are not very well thought of.
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It sure looks proof but could easily be a photoshop job.
I'd guess it's simply what would be termed a "mechanical error". PCGS, NGC, ANACS and all the others have had similar things happen, as well. The coin certainly appears to be a proof and the seller specifically mentions this is the coin for sale and that these aren't stock photos.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
The have a number of them, all proof like in ICG MS holders. I will do some close up looks to see if they all have a lot of marks and/or environmental damage like this one does. I see rolls of proof coins listed all the time, these coins probably came from rolls of coins that missed the grade and someone figure to send them to ICG?
That is a very nice silver Franklin....I would upgrade my '57 album coin with that one....
Cheers, RickO
We all know what ICG stands for.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
?
I Can't Grade?
BHNC #203
That's funny but I have several coins in their slabs and the grades are all spot-on.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
As Jethro Leroy Gibbs would say "Rule 4" Posts promoting or bashing other grading companies or services are not allowed.
Why are you quoting me? I did not say anything for or against them.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
comment withheld.
Aw, come on --
I was just kidding.
Sorry if anyone was insulted, but I thought it was kinda funny.
I guess not.
BHNC #203
I have some also, and their grades were right on .
But, realize I was just joshing
BHNC #203
I work for ICG. Shortly after I joined CU someone posted what the ICG initials stand for. I thought it was hilarious so I started a discussion asking members to post what the letters of each TPGS stood for like: Insane Coin Guess, Not Graded Correctly, etc. I thought it would be a very funny exercise with some really good posts. I Can't Grade is a hard one to beat.
Unfortunately the mods Zapped the discussion. I guess Rule #4 applied even though we are all joking around.
We all have our favorite TPGS for specific reasons but you must be a complete moron if you think any of the top four services is incompetent. Competition is good for the collector!
PS The grader who graded the Proof MS was sent home for the rest of the week after this discussion was started. We have 3 QC people on every coin that is slabbed. I'm one of them so I must have missed this too. However, I claimed I was downstairs in the kitchen baking cookies at the time and blamed the error label on the other two.
I'd take you seriously, but the seller has multiple Proof Franklin's in ICG holders all with MS63 thru MS65 grades, I think 65 was the highest?
I count 14 Proof Franklins currently listed as MS in ICG holders for sale by this seller on ebay right now. One is even labeled MS68 and has an asking price of $3,500.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
I'd imagine ICG offers a grading guarantee and would make the owner of a $40. proof Franklin he paid $3,500. for whole.
To my knowledge, in such cases, PCGS and NGC would classify those as “mechanical errors” and not make the owners whole.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I figured as much when I looked up the number of the label. Unfortunately, I only graded the 8 FS varieties in the box. The rest of the box with common coins went to two other graders. So it is possible there were other label errors. No one was sent home. It is a good bet that I missed those errors during QC.
In a case such as this, most submitters return the coins to be corrected. They get coupons for grading several coins free to cover any postage and inconvenience so I suspect the person listing them must not know the difference between a Proof or MS franklin EITHER!
It's funny but it is not.
EDIT: Thanks for the info, Not funny!!
A free grading voucher is a minimal amount compared to a potential difference in value of hundreds or thousands of dollars, as could be the case for some incorrectly attributed coins.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
If I recall correctly, PCGS has verbiage on their submission form regarding obvious mechanical (labeling) errors and that the responsibility lays on the submitter to inform PCGS of the error(s) so that they may be corrected. Certainly, PCGS does not pay out a lucky lottery ticket to those folks who receive mechanical errors.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
I agree. There is a big difference between calling a PR 3CN MS and selling an obvious Proof as a MS. In some cases, the TPGS I've worked at have NOT DUCKED BEHIND the "mechanical error" excuse when they were dead wrong about an attribution! I would EXPECT any major TPGS to honor that type of error.
Understood. My initial reply was in response to poster abcde12345, who stated “I'd imagine ICG offers a grading guarantee and would make the owner of a $40. proof Franklin he paid $3,500. for whole.” My guess is that he’s mistaken.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
A brief comment for Insider2 . . .
Your comments, insight, and humor in this event are refreshing and well-composed. So many times here on the Boards individuals involved in simple matters develop angst, ruffle feathers, and react negatively. Your comments here are the opposite and have made an interesting discussion even more compelling.
Thanks for your honesty, contributions, and expertise . . . . .
Drunner
Thanks but this is as bad as slabbing a fake. It looks like we made a mistake and in at least two cases $400, $3000 the seller is going to burn some buyers really badly. IMO, judging from what he is selling he knows the difference between a PR and MS Franklin. I've NEVER graded a Proof or MS Franklin a 68. That must be some coin.
I don't know how to report an item to Ebay but I did write to the seller and suggested he take those two down and send them back to be corrected. Unfortunately, in this case, I doubt we will do anything for the new owners except tell them to return the coin to the seller.
PS I'f I owned the grading service, I'd have my six year old cousin join Ebay and bid $10,000 on each of those coins. LOL.
I’ve been in touch with the seller and he said he was going to end most of the listings. I prefer to give him the benefit of the doubt at the moment.
Edited to add: I just looked again and unless I’m missing something, he did as he said he would.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
The seller didn't end the two listings that already had bids, so they are still live.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson