Is this the same coin?
cccoins
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I was looking at old auction catalogs tonight, and ran across this coin from a 1946 Stacks sale:
Do you think it’s the same as this coin? While most of the marks are not visible in the photo above, the two coins share a large cut across liberties knees.
I would be appreciative if anyone had a high resolution scan of the from from this sale:
3
Comments
The hits across the knees would be pretty coincidental for it not to be the same coin, but it looks like some rim damage was conveniently cropped out of the early photo. Might be....
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I would say most likely yes.
Forgot to ask is it your coin?
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
Yes, it is my coin.
The other scratches and rim hits were not mentioned. It I had a closeup, we could determine if the scratches were pre or post 1946.
No.
Lance.
Impossible to say definitively, but I lean toward no.
Same coin. What are the chances that two coins would have the same large mark of the same exact size, location, and orientation? Virtually zero.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Definitely not the same coin. Rim damage missing on obverse to right of 6 in date and also rim damage missing on reverse next to M in America.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
As previously stated, the rim damage was cropped out of the first picture.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Thank you Perry, I should have read all the posts, but I still feel doubtful. I believe you would still be able to see the reverse rim damage at the M as it protrudes into the coin. JMO
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
PCGS CoinFacts says there are 19 of these 1876-CC twenty cents coins still in existence. The chances of two examples of an extreme rarity such as this having the same exact mark with the same size, shape, location, and orientation is virtually zero.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
As previously stated, the rim damage was cropped out of the first picture.
why would the rim damage to the right of the date be cropped out but the rim damage just under the date NOT be cropped out?? while it may indeed be the same coin I don't think it's realistic to make that assessment based on such a poor quality printed photograph that has been digitized. my personal opinion is that there are a number of "artifacts" in the picture which don't seem to match the coin.
I can't tell.
I don't know the quality of the 1946 Stack's photos, but there are copies of this catalog around. There's an ANS staffer who has been active on here lately, he should be able to get a scan whenever he can get back to work. There are a few other people on here who have original catalogs, we'll just have to wait and see.
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I agree with @PerryHall...in 1946 there were maybe only ten surviving examples of this date with the other ten being discovered as part of the Maryland hoard in the 1950s...and most of those/maybe all were UNC...the chances of two of those original ten having the exact same slice on the knees seems remote to me...
I'd guess that the rim damage is hidden in the original photograph due to its poor quality or the rim damage occurred after 1946...
I see a hint of rim damage on obverse above the head, also the dot above the head. I I see the rim damage on the reverse rim next to the M. When comparing a low res image to a high res, you have to go from the low to the high, some things you see on the high will not appear on the low.
I would give it 90% chance of being the same coin.
The images can't be aligned 100%, as there is some distortion (like one of them was photographed at an oblique angle).
Still, I did the best I could, and the knee hits look pretty darn close!
First - thank you all for the advice and opinions. It is helpful.
Second - @IkesT amazing work. I would know how to do what you did with the picture. Thank you for doing that.
Finally, someone mentions an ANA staffer on the board. If you know who that is, please let me know, and I will ask them for a higher resolution scan.
I have some more thoughts as well that I will share later.
Too many marks match. I'd bet they are the same coin.
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Why do you say that? Several places match. 100% no question the same coin. Otherwise, one is a transfer counterfeit from the genuine coin with the hit.
Lot's of similarities. My one observation is the obverse rim damage mentioned to the right of the 6. On the trueview the damage does protrude into the pattern. The old image does not show any damage there. As for the reverse, there is a mark in the pattern above the M consistent with where it would be there on the TV.
Edited to add: Is this a $100k valued coin? Based on your collection comments, do you have another one of these in a better grade?
You're welcome - a bit frustrating to figure out, but I'm glad I learned how to do it. In a nutshell, I edited the images in GIMP and exported as a GIF. It's not that easy to explain, in detail, as several steps went into it - putting the images in 2 different layers, rotating & resizing to match the images, setting the animation parameters, etc.
There are so few of these, It looks like the same coin to me
Based on your collection comments, do you have another one of these in a better grade?
No, this is the only one that I could afford. Based on my current collecting direction, I wouldn’t sell this to buy an unc., unless it was a crazy deal in my favor.
99% same coin
I posted my comment before I became aware of the very low population. Just based on statistics, I would now vote "same coin". In looking over the scans, it appeared that the gashes didn't match in a couple areas, but the resolution of the catalog photo was so low that it might just be an optical artifact.
if not the same coin then it is possible that one is an electrotype of the other. With such a rarity it would not be uncommon.
the older photo looks suspect.
I bought an early spoon a few years ago, (1640's) and found a plate in an old book that looked similar, after similar comparison, I have concluded with certainty that it's my spoon! It's really fun to find items in your personal collection that's in old publications!
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99% sure same coin.
Ditto. I did not consider the number extant. I too considered the knee gashes inconsistent. But in light of the small number of survivors it is too improbable for two to be so alike. Must be the same coin.
Lance.
IMO, NOT a good reason. It does not matter if only 2 coins exist or a million. Identical coins have identical marks. That's why I asked, Unfortunately, the smaller marks are not obvious in the 1946 image.
90% sure same coin.
I would wager the same coin also.
I would suggest reading a good primer on probability and statistics. We are all taking educated guesses here. When dealing with the quality of photos at hand, one must factor in any external information available.
As you say, there is a matching mark on the reverse rim in both photos - it is nearly lost in the low resolution of the 1946 catalog photo, but you can just make it out. As a couple people have said (and I concur), there are other marks that are just not visible in that photo because the resolution is too low.
I vote same coin.
Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc
Anyone that thinks they are not the same is ridiculous.
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Wrong
My Early Large Cents
A lot could have happened to that coin since 1946 regarding the rim dings.
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@CoinJunkie said: "I would suggest reading a good primer on probability and statistics. We are all taking educated guesses here. When dealing with the quality of photos at hand, one must factor in any external information available.
Thanks for your suggestion. I was done with probability and statistics in college long ago so I'll pass. Now, I'm in the real world. I believe a numismatist who is actually qualified to have a truly EDUCATED GUESS should have what I call "an-eye-for-detail." It has nothing to do with anything EXCEPT being able to distinguish minute differences or similarities between two objects. I find most women have it. They can see an old cigar butt next to the floorboard BEHIND THE COUCH when they enter a room. Thankfully, I and others here seem to have that female trait. I find that many men do not but they can be trained.
My eyes are definitely not what they use to be, but I would bet my life that we are looking at the same coin in both images.
Thank you all for your feedback. I went and looked at the coin today. The knee nick is visible to the naked eye, as are the rim hits. The other scratches are hard to see. That helps me to visualize that the coin in the old catalog is likely the same. I will share the provenance as I know it a little later tonight.
After looking at both images in detail... then seeing the subsequent overlays (Thanks @IkesT ), I believe it is the same coin....We know how tricky coin photography can be, and certainly the old picture is not of the quality we see today....Cheers, RickO
Funny - its the kind of thing cherry pickers struggle with all the time with lousy eBay photos. And there are more than enough details to convince me I have a pick! No doubt - same coin.
This odd shaped spot tends to match as well. Nice coin.
ah, ya beat me to the post.
agreed
BHNC #203
I wouldn't call anyone ridiculous or bet my life based on a nearly 75 year old photo. I lean toward not the same coin.
If we were all the same, the world would be an incredibly boring place.
Tommy
Unless the rim damage is hidden in the 1940's photo (which it seems like it could be) then it's not the same. It would be really interesting to compare the same coin side by side 80 years apart to see how the toning has changed. I wish it were the same coin, for that reason.
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As has been pointed out earlier the rim damage has been cropped out of the picture. Notice how the rim is narrower in the old pic than in the new pic.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire