Stay At Home Friday Poll #1
Insider2
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What is your opinion? Should this Mint State coin be "detailed? It's all scratched up. Obviously PMD right?
Stay At Home Friday Poll #1
This is a public poll: others will see what you voted for.
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It has the look of a planchet that had issues before it was struck. Can't really be ignored, since marks that severe aren't typical for Type 3 $1 Indians the way they are on issues like this 1789 French ecu (on which they're actually better than typical). I could see either a details grade with "planchet flaw" or a lowered net grade.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
Looks like damage, I'm waiting for the really cool explanation of why it isn't. Coin looks too new to be adjustment marks. Struck through a broom?
Looks to me like the damage is only on the high points of the details, with no evidence in the fields, suggesting pmd.
But I'm no expert.
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Seriously?
Look again.
K lookin a bit deeper, I do see some lines in the fields, so change my opinion, final answer planchet defect.
Why I like the boards, make you look a little deeper, and learn.
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I agree with Messy Desk. The fact that the marks traverse through both the field and devices with almost seamless continuity makes me lean towards a planchet flaw. I would like to see normal size images before deciding the appropriate remedy, but most likely I would straight grade it silently if a slight deduction or with a a descriptor if more severe.
Looks like scratches to me. Maybe someone scraped something off. I dunno
OK, the "Obvious" answer is details but I am sure Mister Obvious Skip will throw us a ringer.
Looks like regular circulation damage.
Net grade....Maybe F12-VF35?
I think less stuff should be body-bagged anyway.
We have TrueView now and the "sight unseen" idea never made sense to me.
https://www.pcgs.com/photograde/#/GoldDollar3/Grades
My Saint Set
Adjustment marks? I would have expected to see the scratches to damage the adjacent raised rim but the rim appears to be undamaged.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
The devils in the details! Peace Roy
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I think the magnification makes the scratches appear worse than they would in hand....so I say straight grade...modifier would be OK, but perhaps not necessary. Cheers, RickO
The 'marks' look more pronounced on the denticles, letters, devices in general, than in the field. Likely a result of not enough striking pressure (need to squeeze the dies more, to force metal more completely into the die crevices that form the intended design features). Also look at the marks--no sharp edges. This is not a case of PMD.
I am torn between a straight grade with modifiers and a (silent) net grade, because both would likely produce the same result in the marketplace. No buyer would pay the same for this coin and a similar one without those flaws.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
I'd grade it 60. But I don't run the show.
I'm sticking with adjustment marks. There are scratches that go through some of the denticles but there is no damage to the adjacent rim. How else can this be explained?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I can't this time. Every once and awhile there are no tricks just to keep you thinking.
As has been posted, these marks were on the planchet and were not struck out. They are very detracting. A few points:
You can see how stupid net grading is. Only a 0000000 (ah, net grader) would GRADE/sell a fully original MS coin with some mint-made characteristics as an AU or less!
Since the marks are very detracting, they take up a good deal of the surface on such a small coin, its commercial MS grade would be lowered. It was straight graded. The price would also be lowered.
The old technical system worked this way: We have a virtually mark free, gem MS coin (I didn't show the entire coin) with some planchet flaws = Gem Unc, Planchet flaw obverse. let the dealers price it.
Note: If a major TPGS were to straight grade this coin w/modifiers they would have reverted back to the old system we used at the Services in DC during the 1970's and 80's - "True" technical grading. That is EXACTLY what occurred many YEARS AGO when "details" grading became forced upon the TPGS returning coins in "body bags!" LOL, it is all a big circle governed by reason and common sense. It has just taken a few decades for the "experts" to get with the program.
I'd agree except that grade is infrequently used anymore so I suspect MS-62 due to the beauty of the rest of the coin and no friction on the high points that is common on gold.
The cause of the marks although interesting are irrelevant to me
It would be the first thing I would see every time I looked at it. Just like adjustment marks. To each his own as is often said about numismatics.
Adjustment marks, OPSI (original planchet surface Imperfections) - the contact marks on planchets , scratches, damage, and anything else on the planchet (for example imbedded dirt) before being struck THAT STILL REMAINS VISIBLE can all be considered specific "planchet flaws."
What's the date on this coin which appears to be a Type 3 gold dollar? Were these scratches adjustment marks made by a mint employee to reduce the weight of an overweight planchet or were they just damage on the planchet? When did the mint stop adjusting the weight on gold planchets? Inquiring minds want to know.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Still don't get the planchet flaw.
I'm thinking a single scratch across a planchet would be narrower in the devices than in the fields because the gold would get pressed & compacted into the die.
My Saint Set
Inquiring minds will need to ask an "expert." I'm not, I just pretend to be in my own mind. So...
What's the date on this coin which appears to be a Type 3 gold dollar? I don't remember. Were these scratches adjustment marks made by a mint employee to reduce the weight of an overweight planchet? Probably, I was not there but they appear to be. When did the mint stop adjusting the weight on gold planchets? I don't know for sure.
What I do know is at some time in the late 19th Century, the ladies stopped filing the surface of the blanks and started to take the gold from the edges. Sometimes these adjustment marks can be seen between the edge reeds. At this time, without a lot of looking, I don't recall seeing an adjustment mark on a gold coin after 1908. They would be on the edge.
This has been an interesting thread. Thanks!
More, please.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
damage most likely
https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipNX5On5yDhT46OtnY5uIEth9nyaJBQGS8pd3FXPPAlEkZvlknjs6AjNA_epjkVFVg?key=MUVmZ0RxcjBSR3k4d0VNRmdGeFUwaUl1VEtGUGlB
https://photos.google.com/album/AF1QipNAIaSqPRMg72Om7F45Y7afv2oe9gSpiHfUtnra
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I would have through environmental damage, but I can see your explanation. Thanks for this!
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
Read the thread.
Environmental damage does not leave scratches on a coin. They can occur when some "ham-fisted-rookie" tries to remove it.
I've seen early dollars where the surface is very heavily covered with deep adjustment marks that received a straight grade by NGC and PCGS. The reasoning was the adjustment marks were created during the minting process so they shouldn't affect the grade but they sure affected the value of the coin.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Insider2,
Do you have images of the obv & rev that you can post? I am curious to see what the coin actually looks like. Part of the discussion could center on how much of a discount to apply.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
Sorry, no. I only wanted the "good" part of the coin for my files. Gem Unc gold dollars are not rare.