Opinion requested....silver or silver over brass

coinsarefun · March 18, 2020 12:55PM

This particular merchant token comes in brass, gilt brass, silver over brass and silver. Reeded and plain.
The edge is reeded and cannot get a nice clear image to post. However the reeds do have a few small nicks
and looks silver all the way through. I have posted several images and only changed the lighting, no other editing(crop) tho-
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Is it look silver or silver over brass?
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EXOJUNKIE · March 18, 2020 1:10PM

The TPGs will be happy to tell you. When it doubt, submit it!

Sonorandesertrat · March 18, 2020 1:22PM

Weigh it. Do you have calipers, so that you can measure the diameter and thickness--to calculate the volume? The density of brass is 8.4 grams/cc, pure silver is 10.5 grams/cc, and sterling silver is 10.4 grams/cc. A calculated density would be approximate, but sufficiently accurate to make the call.

amwldcoin · March 18, 2020 1:54PM

It should be easy to tell with a simple ring test. Just balance it on your fingertip and give it a light tap with a ball point pen.
It sure looks silver to me.

coinsarefun · March 18, 2020 2:35PM

Sorry @Sonorandesertrat no calipers. I did weigh it against a brass token that I have. The brass is 1/16" smaller
in diameter tho'
Brass token weighs 7.9g
Token in question 9.8g
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@amwldcoin I did do that. It does sound like silver and for that reason I started to think it was.
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@EXOJUNKIE .......lol just had to have them correct one they thought was brass to copper
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Okay everyone. Here are some pics I managed to get on my iPhone. Maybe this will help.
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Sonorandesertrat · March 18, 2020 2:41PM

My bet is silver

AUandAG · March 18, 2020 2:48PM

A simple specific gravity test would tell you for sure: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_2vA1qO2fA

coinsarefun · March 18, 2020 3:33PM

@AUandAG well.......dat's dat!! specific gravity weighs in at 7.5 so must be silvered brass.
Really had me fooled into thinking it was silver!

Sonorandesertrat · March 18, 2020 3:37PM

So will it be tossed off the bus?

coinsarefun · March 18, 2020 3:52PM

@Sonorandesertrat said:
So will it be tossed off the bus?

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I still like it very much and will have it graded as it’s still pretty dog gone
nice. There are very few that have even come to auction not to mention I haven’t
found a silvered brass one that hasn’t had the majority of silver rubbed off.
Price wise you know like me the book prices do not reflect its real value.
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Besides, they are very well know for coin silverware in the 1850’s

Smudge · March 18, 2020 4:40PM

Have you tried the rare earth magnet test?

amwldcoin · March 18, 2020 4:46PM

@coinsarefun Are you experienced doing a ring test and do you have good ears? If that is silver plated brass it would not ring anything like silver! How confident are you with your SG test. The volumne has to be very accurate!

coinsarefun · March 18, 2020 4:56PM

@amwldcoin said:
@coinsarefun Are you experienced doing a ring test and do you have good ears? If that is silver plated brass it would not ring anything like silver! How confident are you with your SG test. The volumne has to be very accurate!

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Actually my hearing is not what it used to be and it sure sounded like it.
As far as the specific gravity test goes I am very capable.

AUandAG · March 18, 2020 5:50PM

@amwldcoin said:
@coinsarefun Are you experienced doing a ring test and do you have good ears? If that is silver plated brass it would not ring anything like silver! How confident are you with your SG test. The volumne has to be very accurate!

Silver plated brass will not be anywhere the same on SG. 90% will be a 10 and this was a 7.5. Not even close enough to think the test was bad.

bob

Broadstruck · March 18, 2020 6:13PM

In your main pics it looks silvered brass, but laying on the green place mat it looks like it may be silver.

This merchant token is common and just a little tougher in silver but the price does jump being so.

NGC has graded many attributed both ways.

Namvet69 · March 18, 2020 6:39PM

Downtown Philly was a happening place back then. Nice token for sure. Peace Roy

coinsarefun · March 18, 2020 6:41PM

@Broadstruck said:
In your main pics it looks silvered brass, but laying on the green place mat it looks like it may be silver.

This merchant token is common and just a little tougher in silver but the price does jump being so.

NGC has graded many attributed both ways.

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Do you have any current NGC pop’s?
I looked and could only find
(1860) Bailey & Co. PHILA M-PA-29 One ms62 and one in ms64
(1860) Bailey & Co. PHILA M-PA-30. One au55, one ms61 and two ms63
(1860) Bailey & Co. PHILA M-PA-31 One ms62
I couldn’t find any silver graded
I haven’t found any other graded ones either, but it’s very possible I missed something

CaptHenway · March 18, 2020 6:50PM

@AUandAG said:
A simple specific gravity test would tell you for sure: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_2vA1qO2fA

S. G. Is easy and amazingly useful!

ricko · March 19, 2020 5:09AM

Nice token.... even as silver plated brass... good condition. Cheers, RickO

Broadstruck · March 19, 2020 8:15AM

@coinsarefun said:

@Broadstruck said:
In your main pics it looks silvered brass, but laying on the green place mat it looks like it may be silver.

This merchant token is common and just a little tougher in silver but the price does jump being so.

NGC has graded many attributed both ways.

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Do you have any current NGC pop’s?
I looked and could only find
(1860) Bailey & Co. PHILA M-PA-29 One ms62 and one in ms64
(1860) Bailey & Co. PHILA M-PA-30. One au55, one ms61 and two ms63
(1860) Bailey & Co. PHILA M-PA-31 One ms62
I couldn’t find any silver graded
I haven’t found any other graded ones either, but it’s very possible I missed something

NGC did not do population reports on Merchant Tokens till around the time they did the pronged holders so there's like another decade worth of undocumented slabbed examples out there.

Here's just a few of the NGC samples I could quickly find. I saw plenty more out there raw which have sold but no other slabs but NGC.

There might be more in the Stack's Bowers archives as I'm sure John Ford had a bunch... The S/B archives kept timing out and locking up on me so I could not glance.

MILLER PA 30 NGC MS62

MILLER PA 33 NGC AU58

MILLER PA 30 NGC MS63

coinsarefun · March 19, 2020 1:04PM

Thanks @Broadstruck now that its posted here its a great reference. So there are 2 silver ones graded. Looks like the rest
that were graded have pictures now to go with the grades. It looks like mine may be worth grading as only a few have eye appeal.

Opinion requested....silver or silver over brass

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