Newbie question on grading of older coins
scotty4449
Posts: 718 ✭✭✭✭✭
I wonder about this coin below. It's graded MS64, but isn't that obvious wear on the leg thigh? Does this coin get a pass because it's older, or is there something else going on here that I am not aware of? I also see older coins with what looks like serious hairlines from light cleaning. Just wonder if older coins get a benefit of the doubt when it comes to grading. Thanks in advance for your insights.
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The simple answer is yes some coin types get some benefit of the doubt because it was customary for owners to wipe and clean coins in the 18th century which often left those coins with hairlines. it really depends on the severity of the issue, in the case of the seated coin you posted it might be a combo of a touch of strike weakness with a hint of rub (would need to see in hand to say for sure on the rub) but given a commercial grade of 64.
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@scotty4449 said:
"I wonder about this coin below. It's graded MS64, but isn't that obvious wear on the leg thigh?"
YES. The targeting of three different colors cannot be any more obvious.
"Does this coin get a pass because it's older, or is there something else going on here that I am not aware of?"
During the last several decades the grading standard for MS has become less strict. A little loss of luster on the high spots is not as important as the overall appearance of the rest of the coin. Note how pristine the surfaces are. If the coin had circulated much it would not look this nice. This type of wear is often called "cabinet friction."
"I also see older coins with what looks like serious hairlines from light cleaning. Just wonder if older coins get a benefit of the doubt when it comes to grading."
Older coins and coins of soft metals often are given more leeway when grading. It' can be confusing. The best part is you only need to buy coins that meet your PERSONAL standards.
Great answers, very helpful. Thanks!
Sometimes a weak strike looks like wear. I have issues with Peace Dollars, especially 1921’s.
A weak strike may look like wear if you are basing your judgment on the amount of design present. However, to a trained eye able to recognize original surfaces, the two (friction wear/weak strike) look completely different! Weakly struck coins don't display a "target" pattern of wear like the OP's coin.
I agree with @Insider2 's excellent appraisal...the 'wear' does appear to be what used to be called 'cabinet friction' and detracts from what is otherwise a very nice coin. Cheers, RickO
There is so much information on the internet now that new collectors would be very remiss if they did not take advantage of it. Looking at images of MS coins can be tricky, because assessing luster based on one, nonrotating image can be quite difficult. In this case, the cabinet friction is clear. What is less clear is the grade, so look at images of other coins of this denomination and year, also graded MS64. See if you notice differences in the overall appearance (aka eye appeal), quality of the strike, number of marks, etc. Get opinions from other collectors, since you will likely sell your coin at some point. Be picky.
This coin is a good example of what commercial grading is about. There is wear (cabinet friction, probably not wear from circulation) but the grade was determined to be mint state because an AU grade would not reflect the value of the coin in the marketplace at the time it was graded (i.e., assigning an AU grade, say 55 or 58 or 58+, would lead people to place too low a value on the coin). At one time, decades ago, there was a clear demarcation between AU and UNC. No longer--you will see coins with cabinet friction vary from 55 to 64, depending on other factors like overall eye appeal and who did the grading. Ask yourself what the coin might grade if there were no cabinet friction. Or what the coin might grade if there were no cabinet friction, but a bit less luster or more marks. One problem with MS grades is that there are multiple ways to arrive at a given grade, and the only way to develop some understanding of this is to look at LOTS of coins in hand. Grading clearly circulated coins is much easier.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
This coin is a good example of what commercial grading is about. There is wear (cabinet friction, probably not wear from circulation) but the grade was determined to be mint state because an AU grade would not reflect the value of the coin in the marketplace at the time it was graded (i.e., assigning an AU grade, say 55 or 58 or 58+, would lead people to place too low a value on the coin). At one time, decades ago, there was a clear demarcation between AU and UNC. No longer--you will see coins with cabinet friction vary from 55 to 64, depending on other factors like overall eye appeal and who did the grading. Ask yourself what the coin might grade if there were no cabinet friction. Or what the coin might grade if there were no cabinet friction, but a bit less luster or more marks. One problem with MS grades is that there are multiple ways to arrive at a given grade,
This seems to be a reversion towards the situation that existed before the advent of third party grading, when price was the main indicator of a coin's desirability along with flowery descriptions and over-hyped advertising. To wit, a "slider" was a coin that had an appearance of being uncirculated at first glance but showed evidence of slight wear upon closer examination. That's about the time when "About Uncirculated" or AU became a thing.
This isn't to say that third party grading doesn't serve a valid purpose. There's a place for a paid professional opinion, but the onus remains on a coin purchaser to understand the ropes and to know what he or she is actually purchasing.
However, I disagree with a nebulous and sliding scale when it comes to evaluating the degree of how much a coin is, or isn't "uncirculated". It leaves too much room for misrepresentation. Best to become a student of the series and find a knowledgeable mentor and reliable dealers.
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"There's a place for a paid professional opinion, but the onus remains on a coin purchaser to understand the ropes and to know what he or she is actually purchasing."
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RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]