At first I smiled and then I frowned.
keets
Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭
There are certain SC$'s that I look for which have proven very elusive over the years, one being HK-596-597a. To me it is very striking in appearance with nice relief and a well executed design. Though I have seen several versions struck in White Metal the Bronze and Silver versions rarely show themselves as available for purchase.
One showed up at the current Stack's auction, a Bronze example. I almost never try to win a damaged or holed medal I may break my own rule for this one, it has some gouges on the obverse portrait and a scratch where those meet the field to the right of center.................So, So Sad because otherwise it's a freakin' gem.
Here's the listing: https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/3-M08BL/1883-german-american-bicentennial-bronze-35-mm-hk-597a-rarity-6-mint-state and an image of a White Metal example taken from the SC$ website.
Al H.
Comments
Those marks we annoy the hell out of me.
Agreed, that's all I see.
It ain't that beautiful with those gnarfs on her face. I don't think it's a mint state anymore. Peace Roy
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Those should buff right out.
Someone will bid on it...provided the reserve is not too high...if there is one.
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I have no knowledge of So Called Dollars, in fact had to ask on here one day what they were.
What kind of value are we looking at?
It shows a starting bid of $1 with 11 days until the auction which, on the surface, seems to speak to a very small market, or am I missing something big here?
It shows a rarity-6, so if it was something that I had been seeking for years and had not found one, I would, even though I try not to fill holes and update later, seriously consider buying this.
But then again I have yet to get a fugio because I felt I could not justify buying one without the detail I want.
It shows a rarity-6
the rarity given for most SC$'s dates back to 1960 with some minor changes made around 2005 with the second edition. quite often they are based on numbers struck, if known, or estimates of survivors. this is a good place to start but it needs to be weighed against what we see, an actual number closer to reality. Hibler-Kappen listed no struck/issued numbers in their original work for HK-596(Silver) and HK-597(White Metal) although they stated the manufacturer as W.H. Warner & Bros. of Philadelphia.
they made no mention of a Bronze issue.
the 2nd Edition lists a Bronze medal as R-6 which equates to 21-75 known and strikes me as very generous. since I may have seen 2-3 in my searching I would place the listing as an R-7, hence, my interest even though impaired. I have my number in mind and will bid accordingly.
Bicentennial? What were they celebrating. Our US bicentennial was 1976, I think that 1883 was a bit premature, 'eh?
bob
PS: Rarity trumps condition. period.
Bicentennial? What were they celebrating.
the internet is such a wonderful store of information, but we need to look.
--- Germantown (Pennsylvania German: Deitscheschteddel) is an area in Northwest Philadelphia. Founded by German Quaker and Mennonite families in 1683 as an independent borough, it was absorbed into Philadelphia in 1854. The area, which is about six miles northwest from the city center, now consists of two neighborhoods: 'Germantown' and 'East Germantown'.
PPS --- I avoid using the word "trump" at every opportunity.
hence, my interest even though impaired. I have my number in mind and will bid accordingly.
Please keep us posted.
That's not so bad. Go for it!
Collector, occasional seller
Not bad.
I have a few tokens and coins that have some damage but the price was right, I think damage discounts right now are as high as I've seen so I wouldn't just walk away from this unless it skys.
Good luck Al... when one is seeking something, it keeps nagging at the back of the brain until we get it.... Been there and done that....Cheers, RickO
@keets
I have always loved that design, but I have passed on several in the past because no one even knows how much to ask for one, let alone pay.
If it was something I really wanted for my core collection and it was this rare or hard to find I would definitely go for it. Those marks really aren't that bad considering how nice the rest of the coin is.
That’s nothin. Go for it! Honestly, that’s a really nice piece!
"W.H. Warner & Bros. of Philadelphia."
Who did the engraving? The obverse design looks very close to the Morgan and barber designs. Just curious.
“A smile is just a frown, turned upside down”
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Here's the Stack's piece. It's quite nice. For rare pieces, I'll make exceptions. I like that piece much better like that than if it was holed. I haven't seen other specimens but if virtually all the other ones are damaged and holed, then this may be a worthy specimen!
I've always been curious about Germantowns, especially since there seem to be quite a few Germantown So-Called Dollars. Here's a map of a few:
By the way, the second 8 looks like it could be doublestruck:
@Zoins....There is also a Germantown in NYS, about 15 miles from me. What is the depicted 'item' in the top leaf of the clover? Have not been able to identify that...Cheers, RickO
What is the depicted 'item' in the top leaf of the clover?
that is supposed to be representative of flax.
If it makes you feel better, I'll bid against you, to give you a sense of accomplishment when you win.
I'm comfortable calling this an R-6. The low end of the R-6 range is 20 pieces. NGC has slabbed six examples so far, plus this example at Stacks that seems to be unslabbed. It's possible that NGC has slabbed a third of the total population, but that certainly wouldn't be my first bet.
I do love the look of 19th century bronze medals!
Jonathan, what explanation would you have for how Hibler-Kappen missed this one the first time around?? also, aside from the NGC numbers do your records show any other medals selling anywhere?? another member has told me he's seen them at auction before but I only have seen the 2-3 I mentioned earlier. I suppose I should pull out some catalogues and see what I can find from the past 20 years.
I think it is nice and if it brings you joy, go for it. I hope you win!
"She comes out of the sun in a silk dress,
running like a water color in the rain...."
@keets I have auction records for a half dozen or so. Stack's sold one 2014, and Jeff sold one in 2011. Could be duplicates; I didn't try to track individual pieces. Now that the NNP is online you can probably find a bunch more.
HK listed pieces that they'd seen or that they had in their own collections. The surprising part is that they included as much as they did. No surprise at all that the missed some, long before computers and the internet.
How many HK numbers were in the first and second editions? It would be interesting to know how many Hibler and Kappen had between them.
I have auction records for a half dozen or so
I suppose I should set some time aside and search to see how many I can find. along a similar line of thought, the Eutopia Dollars have always intrigued me. several months ago I searched, based on the claim that the dies are said to have broken on third impression, and found between 7-10 unique medals.
That coin has an uncanny resemblence to this ancient Greek tetradrachm featuring Alexander Balas and Cleopatra Thea (an ancestor of "the" Cleopatra) which was issued for their marriage. I wonder if the engraver was paying homage to the type or if people are predictable and there are only so many ways to depict portraits on a coin?
I suspect it's because the artists and designers in the 19th Century were Classically trained. to be honest, the two portraits have less a German look and more a Roman look.
The Eutopia $ dies may have "broken" on the third impression but they did not stop striking the medals. On most examples you will see two die cracks on the obverse running from the rim to the center hole -- these have been present on the three pieces that I have handled over the years and show up on the auction lots I have looked at as well. I am fairly certain that is the "break" that H&K mentions (and I seem to recall Charley Kappen mentioning that to me many years ago).
There were four examples on the bourse floor at the CSNS Show last April including an ex-Ford piece, and (I believe) an ex-Eric Newman piece.
On most examples you will see two die cracks on the obverse
I have never seen a medal without the die cracks, so I believe it happened on the first strike until I see a medal without them.
Another thing I find fascinating about this medal is that Germany is spelled with an I, for "GERMANI". It reminds me of old tokens where Importers is spelled with a J for "JMPORTERS.
I've been looking too and haven't seen one without cracks either.
That's a portion of a GERMANIA wrap-around on the head band.
Germania makes sense. Do you think they cut it off on purpose or did they just run out of space?
On purpose - it's a somewhat common technique used by 19th Century medalists. I believe Dick Johnson (MACO) has a technical term for it but I've seem fading (i.e. fading legend, fading inscription) or faded used in some descriptions.
Interesting. I'll need to look out for this more. I mostly look at headbands on territorial gold coins and haven't come across this approach before.
Here's a 2019 rendition of Columbia and Germania I just ran across on ModernCoinMart.
https://www.moderncoinmart.com/2020-allegories-germania-columbia-1-oz-silver-medal-gem-bu-sku60477.html
wow, Germania is stacked!!!
If SC dollars are your big thing, and the bronze is very scarce, I would not let those small marks stop me. I had to put on my cheaters to see them. At some level, price might stop me, but those marks would not.
The Germantown in NYS is in Columbia County...
Those scratches do not bother me...however I would avoid holed coins...
There are 1432 entries currently on https://www.so-calleddollars.com, some of them added after the printed edition. That includes each metal composition separately. There are about 700 design types if you fold the different compositions together, depending on how exactly you divide up some of the minor design differences.
I'd have to dig through my notes to get the numbers for the first edition. I think it was about 1100-1200.