When is a sale a done deal?
amwldcoin
Posts: 11,269 ✭✭✭✭✭
This is a spin off question from my 92-S Barber Half thread.
I was chatting with a friend last night and got to talking about the guy backing out on selling me the coin after 2 months. He brought up a good point...although I can't see myself doing anything about it.
He told me when the guy cashed my check the sale was done and it is a legal binding contract.
Opinions?
PS the amount is in thousands not hundreds as some may think!
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Practically speaking, probably when you've taken possession of the coin. I don't know all the details, but it sounds like your seller behaved unethically. I'd be extremely hesitant to deal with that person again.
A verbal agreement is a bilateral contract so at the moment there is agreement it’s binding in my opinion. Now, if it stays verbal it becomes hard to prove if push comes to shove. So a written agreement works better.
All that to say is a person is only as good as their word. If someone verbally agreed with me and wanted to back out I’d probably let them but never do business with them again.
When money has changed hands and the buyer has the item in hand and told the seller it is acceptable (an image of the coin is not sufficient).
On occasion, I have had a buyer or seller back out of a verbally agreed transaction. A nuisance, but certainly not a done deal. I have had this experience with a few forum members. Not a killer issue, but I won't buy from or sell to them in the future.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
Yeah, and when he promised me the coin 2 months ago all he could do was rave about I don't have to worry the coin is mine and he is a 50 year ANA member. I do think his sentimental attachment to the coin is greater than he realized.
It passed verbal when he cashed my check...and yes what it is for is noted on the check. (and as of this moment it is the only AU58+)
To me, those would be terms of the agreement. If that was part of the verbal or written agreement then great. But if it’s not specified as part of the agreement I think the contract was set at the moment of agreement. Now, if two parties have a history of working with each other and understanding unspoken terms that’s great but with a party who doesn’t think that way I wouldn’t expect it.
Agreement was made and money changed hands. It’s a bilateral contract that has weight to it with the money changing hands. The other person not fulfilling the contract is in breach. Simple as that. Second thoughts, regrets, etc. don’t factor in. I wouldn’t expect to allow the contract to be broken without some compensation.
Since you were the buyer, and money changed hands, that is a problem. Did the seller return your money? Regardless, do not do business with that person again. He owes you the coin, or at least your money plus interest.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
Once the money was accepted (i.e. check cashed) the deal was complete in a business sense....though not contractually completed until possession of the goods has transpired. Backing out after accepting funds is certainly unethical, though, if funds returned, not illegal. Cheers, RickO
I am curious, do top AU58+ sell in the 64-65 range?
If someone offers me a coin and I accept his offer, I consider that to be a done deal. If he backs out of that deal without a very good reason, he's an untrustworthy dishonest person who I will never deal with again.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
POP 1's certainly do from my experience.
Generally speaking, the basis of a contact is spoken or written offer and acceptance. And unless otherwise specified, payment need not be made at that time, for a contract to have been made.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Its a sale when both parties agree to the terms.
Its a done deal when the the exchange is completed.
OP had half of a done deal. If OP accepted the return of the payment, then he has a "no deal."
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Your best move would be to get your money back, decline any further business with the individual involved and move on.
I agree with your friend.
He cashed your check. Have you taken possession of the coin? If so it’s yours.
Do what you want but I would never deal with him again. What is his reason for wanting buy it back? Has it increased in market value? Weird....Did somebody make him a higher offer?
What date, TPG / grade is the coin? What is he giving as reason buy it back? The funds have cleared.
If you decide take it back don’t refund him until funds cleared.
IMHO
a deal is done when there is a exchange of payment for goods someone bought,
1997-present
All anyone ever had to do to avoid me was to break a confirmation ONCE......
Once I shake hands with someone, as far as I'm concerned, the deal is done. If the other party backs out after that, I will never do business with them again. If I shake your hand, you can count on me fulfilling my end of the bargain - that's how you build a reputation in this business.
Member ANA, SPMC, SCNA, FUN, CONECA
You had a contract when he accepted your offer to purchase and/or you accepted his offer to sell. Assuming the terms of the agreement were that straight forward, you performed your contractual obligation when you paid good funds. He is in breach by failing to perform his contractual obligation by providing you the coin. In my state at least, assuming there are no complicating variables you could potentially pursue legal action for specific performance (I.e a judge orders him to provide you the coin). Probably impractical to go that far unfortunately so it is what it is.
Laws regarding verbal agreements vary depending on the state. They are also difficult to prove but in your case, it is easy. If I understand correctly, the seller cashed the check which completes your obligation in the transaction. He has not fulfilled his obligation. It's cut and dry. The question arises as to why he did not deliver the coin. If the coin was lost or stolen, most courts would only permit a refund. If he states that he has changed his mind, you would be entitled to whatever compensation you can prove such as lost revenue from the resale.
That said, none of this matters if you accepted the refund. Hope this helps
To me an agreement and a hand shake is all that is required and we have a deal. Legally it's a different story, but if what you said is true with him cashing your check, to me that constitutes a deal that he needs to deliver his part on or he is in breach of contract.
I would not deal with this person again.
Donato
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Haven't received his check yet so the door is still open if I want.
It is a done deal when an agreement is made, confirmed, and exchange completed. (goods or services for goods or services) So someone hasn't consummated the "deal", or (as in many cases with me) the post office just "lost" it.
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For a legal answer refer to Article 2 (Sales) of the Uniform Commercial Code enacted in the state or states in which the seller and buyer are located (for sales with the USA).
For a moral/ethical answer refer to your own moral code.
THIS was the applicable standard for DEALERS ever since I can remember. VERY large deals were done with only a phone confirmation.
Reneging on a confirmation of any type pretty much finishes a dealer.
If an agreement is made and one of the parties dies before the exchange, is it a done deal or just an unfulfilled agreement?
What if the buyer never sends payment?
What if the seller returns payment and never sends item?
Done deal only when completion of exchange by both parties. Ebay has taught us this.
Honorable parties turn agreements into done deals. Short of legal action an agreement cannot be enforced.
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Likely we have all had buyers and sellers remorse.
You would expect more from a Dealer.
A collector can be forgiven up until the money changes hand.
Unfortunate...
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I would say within a week of the other party taking possession. The coin business is not Wal Mart, you just don't get to change your mind after two months expecting to get your money back.
Fighting the Fight for 11 Years with the big "C" - Never Ever Give Up!
Member PCGS Open Forum board 2002 - 2006 (closed end of 2006) Current board since 2006 Successful trades with many members, over the past two decades, never a bad deal.
A collector has no less of an obligation to fulfill an agreement than a dealer does.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Some people are skewing things a bit. The collector contacted me offering me the coin after he saw my spread in the last Barber Collectors Society publication. This was a deal between 2 collectors, even though I'm a dealer(collector at heart!). He promised me the coin but wanted to get a trueview, Money would not sway him from this decision. There was no dealer hanky panky and I told him I was a dealer. I also paid his upped price after my generous offer.
Edit to add I didn't mail him a check until he told me to!
Thanks, I found the UCC but dang if I can find anything regarding this situation! I spent around an hour just out of curiosity. I'm sure there is something about it buried somewhere! https://law.justia.com/codes/tennessee/2010/title-47/
This is not applicable in your particular case, but eBay buyers should be aware that sellers can cancel a sale at their discretion.
I recently bought a coin from an eBay seller via Best Offer - I made an offer, the seller accepted, and I paid. The seller marked the item as shipped, and then about an hour layer, he refunded my PayPal payment, saying he couldn't sell the coin.
In doing so, he had to eat the PayPal fees - and I believe eBay will ding his seller ratings for cancelling the sale - but there is no way for me as a buyer to stop him from doing this. Since he has refunded my payment, I cannot open a case through eBay. I could leave negative feedback, but there's really no point. It doesn't get me the coin, which is what I really want, not to mention that leaving negative feedback would hurt me more, as a buyer (other sellers can look my feedback and see that I've left a negative...).
IMO it isn't a done deal until one of the parties makes it unlikely that the deal will be completed or reversed.
I think we all know what should have happened. It’s frustrating and disappointing, but many things in life are. If you want to push it, you might be able to get the coin. More likely just a refund.
Me? I’d swallow hard, take a deep breath, and let it go......emotionally and literally. life is too short to dwell on stuff like this.
I’d never do business with him again and I’d make sure he understood that.
When is a deal done? Only when it was so long ago neither party remembers anything about it. In this world of chargebacks & clawbacks it’s almost that bad.....
For the seller......when the cash is in your pocket and the terms of your return period is over.
For the buyer.....when you've paid in full.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
I would say that until it is in your possession, then its not a done deal. It could get lost before it get to you. Sellers remorse. A better offer took place right after you purchased from a walk-in customer. I have had a seller contact me and say that they could not find the coin and issued a refund. Did they really misplace it?
Although not an actual law...
"possession is nine-tenths of the law"
Custody presumes ownership. The basis of this legal maxim that comes down from the 17th-century is the commonsense observation that if you have control of something, chances are better than average that it's yours. Lawyers term it a rebuttable presumption: ownership is recognized unless disproved by someone holding a more valid claim. The phrase started life as “possession is nine points of the law,” which referred to possession's satisfying nine out of eleven factors that constituted absolute ownership. However, “nine-tenths” entered popular usage to reflect the idea that custody is 90 percent of legal ownership.
https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/possession+is+9/10+of+the+law
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This. Since a lost shipment claim has to be filed by the sender it only makes sense to consider the item the property of the sender until delivered to the buyer.
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