Please help settle a discussion...
Insider2
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Which of these do you consider suitable numismatic terms to describe a "problem" coin's surfaces? This is not a trick question. Please do not consider what is done today at any grading service. This is ONLY about what you think/use.
1) Cleaned
2) Polished
3) Buffed
4) Whizzed
5) All of the above
If you answer #5, have you ever used any of them at some time in the past to describe a particular coin?
Do you think "Cleaned" covers all of the above terms except for whizzing?
Thanks!
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I'd answer #5, all of the above.
I never used all of these terms to describe the same coin although I've used all of these terms to describe different coins.
Yes, I think of "cleaned" as a general term that includes buffing and polishing as well as other methods of cleaning but see whizzing as distinctly different than cleaning as it involves moving significant amounts of metal and is more of an alteration (and more serious as an impairment) than cleaning.
Not sure I'll help settle anything....
But I don't have a problem with any of those terms. There may be some overlap between them, (Polished is by hand, while Buffed is by machine? Buffed implies a softer wheel, while Whizzed is a more aggressive wheel? Just tossing out thoughts....)
But I don't think 2-4 are the same as cleaned in my mind. Cleaned implies more hap-hazard, possibly by a well meaning novice. The rest seem to imply intent to deceive.
We're wandering deeply into semantics. But I don't have an issue with any of the terms, really.
I do not think that "cleaned" covers it all.
I've personally used the first two when selling but have never owned a whizzed or polished coin that I wanted to sell.
So, I'm a #5
bob
No. 5: I see each of them as distinct conditions but generally not things that occur or are visible at the same time. If a coin is buffed and then whizzed you probably couldn’t easily tell it was buffed. Or cleaned or polished.
Cleaned is a bit more general but I see it as ‘cleaned, not buffed or polished’. But I do see buffed and polished being nearly the same, the difference being the degree.
I have used all of those terms, except buffed, to describe particular coins (NOT MINE!).
Cleaned means different things to different people. It could include gentle swabbing and/or a dip that leaves a coin unnaturally bright, cleaning that leaves very minor hairlines, cleaning that leaves really noticeable hairlines, lifting off encrusted material, removing PVC detritus (and possibly exposing a pitted surface), etc.
To me, buffed and polished are very similar terms.
I don't equate cleaning with polishing.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
(5) All of the above.
'Cleaned' to me, implies a marred surface with hairlines present.
Dipping is not cleaning.
If it was, then 90% of the old, white coins would be bodybagged.
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5 i think others have already covered any comments I would have made.
Help. Don't know why it's so big
Should the term "wiped" be added to your list or is this just another term for buffed?
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"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I think buffed and polished are interchangeable
IMO dipped Coins are covered by "cleaned"
Whizzed is a very specific category. Many new collectors haven't seen enough to be able to correctly ID a whizzed coins from heavy hairlines
It’s the markdown style support. If you start a line with #5 markdown sees it as a heading level.
Just don't complain about it.
Number 5...but I can't recall describing a coin as "buffed."
Not complaining. Just didn't know what I did to make the font so big. Now I know.
1) Cleaned = cleaned
2) Polished = cleaned
3) Buffed = cleaned
4) Whizzed = altered surfaces
Three out of the for are methods which result in a cleaned coin. Whizzed, however, would fall under altered surfaces because the action of whizzing is to create luster where there is none.
Cheers
Bob
Well, 1 through 4 describe different things, so use that which is appropriate. OK, polished and buffed are pretty much the same to be fair.
The only catch-all I think would be "altered surfaces", which all of them are, but not "cleaned" as the catch-all.
Collector, occasional seller
I think all of the above are suitable.
I’ve probably used all but 3) Buffed
I don’t think “cleaned” covers “whizzing” or “polished” and maybe not “buffed” as I think it’s more akin to “polished” than merely “cleaned”.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
And I’ll be shocked if anything is actually “settled”.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Sorry...I was making a puerile joke.
I have no clue what "whizzed" means. I'll go with #1 and #2.
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6) Unacceptable
I've used all but # 3 as that falls into either polished or whizzed category to me.
I've also used a term you haven't listed...lightly wiped. This is a nice BU coin with minimal hairlines caused by a light cleaning....alias wiped!
Just tell us the answer! Please. Whatever you say. I'll go with it. The suspense is killing me.
Thanks, I corrected my question.> @PerryHall said:
I first heard the term "wiped" ATS to describe a "wheel mark." Wheel marks are confined to a certain part of a coin althought the area of the mark can be described as buffed or polished depending on the degree the surface is affected.
Your answer is EXACTLY WHY I started this discussion!
Actually, this question has been "settled" in my mind since 1972. I;m interested in what others think. I may be convinced to change my mind.
I always associated the term "wiped" with taking a cloth to wipe finger prints or dirt off a coin and to perhaps shine it up a little. I've never heard it used for wheel marks.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
LOL, no one made me "king." I'll post my thoughts when I'm satisfied with the discussion.
It is something you should know. Look it up on the Internet.
If I had to choose just one I'd say 'cleaned'. However, I lean towards #5, as 'cleaned' could mean a dipped coin, which is market acceptable and very commonplace.
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When I first met you at FUN in 2012 I believe you used all of those terms to describe my raw collection of Barber Half Dollars......
Who said anything about a king? Your ego may yet get the better of you!........In the meantime........LONG LIVE THE SELF-PROCLAIMED KING!!!!!
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RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
I cleaned coin may one day be made to look natural whereas a polished or buffed or whizzed coin simply cannot.
EXACTLY! ........Could not have said it better if I tried. Which I wouldn't. So I won't.
More seriously, I like 5 as in 1-4 are all valid.
Each term is a descriptive term describing a method of surface alteration...'Cleaned' is general and can cover several methods. 2, 3, and 4 are more aggressive methods usually applied to a coin for deceptive purposes. Cheers, RickO
I would remove "buffed".
"Buffed" vs "Cleaned" or "Polished" is what the original discussion was about that made me post my question. I use all three to describe what I see on a coin as it is all a matter of degree. However, I may have my mind changed after further comments.
The terms refer to points along a spectrum of types and degrees of surface manipulation. Not 4 or 5 discrete categories depending on tools and extent, or even along a x axis numberline, but an N-dimensional hypercontinuum where N represents the characteristics that the appraiser is able to comprehend and express.
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I'd leave buffed and add burnished 😉
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Yes. I do.
Pete
5
The 4 above describe different effects
BHNC #203
It seems the TPGS agree with you much of the time.
I would agree with Mark Feld that I have used all except buffed. In my mind there is a continuum of how badly altered a coin is. This would be mechanical alteration so we can set aside overdipped which would fall under altered surface and chemical alteration for this. I have used all of these on raw coins starting with the most mild to most severe.
Wiped- Light hairlines, often market acceptable but on a BU coin you just have to call it.
Lightly cleaned- A few more marks but takes effort to see it
Cleaned- Coin displaying shininess inconstant with a coin of that grade or inappropriate type of shininess for the grade
Harshly Cleaned- Tons of hairlines and artificially shiny
Polished- Cleaning done specifically with a polishing cloth that makes a coin improperly shiny and taking away almost all original surfaces
Whizzed- Harsh mechanical polishing moving metal and melting metal. Coin completely altered
FUBAR- Profanity is banned here.