Old Rattler that the Certification Number " May be invalid" PCGS says send it in.

Texast · February 22, 2020 2:42AM

I have to wonder if some of the records were lost in the early days, I have heard in other threads that PCGS did lose some.

The Cert number on this slab comes back as it maybe bad, I called PCGS and was told I would have to send it in. If it's a counterfeit I will, but as for cracking it out for an upgrade I will know more when I have it in hand. Hear is the front of the slab.

If you think it's counterfeit please say so.
If you think it will upgrade say that.
If you know the PM of people at PCGS please post them so they can comment . They may be able to straighten this thing out.
@HeatherBoyd can you help with this, why does it have to be returned? Can you point this thread to the right person?

Timbuk3 · February 22, 2020 3:12AM

Oh boy !!!

PerryHall · February 22, 2020 5:10AM

Rather than going through the hassle and expense of shipping it to PCGS, take it to the next coin show where PCGS will be set up and show it to them there. Can we get a pic of the reverse of the slab? The rattler slab was counterfeited and the font on the reverse label was slightly off. The dealer who counterfeited the rattler slabs was caught, prosecuted, and spent time in prison. He put real full luster slider AU coins in his counterfeit slabs with the label showing higher MS grades. He primarily did this with silver dollars and double eagles. Once this scam was discovered PCGS actively took these bad slabs off the market and redesigned their slab to have more anti-counterfeiting features.

Texast · February 22, 2020 5:26AM

@PerryHall said:
Rather than going through the hassle and expense of shipping it to PCGS, take it to the next coin show where PCGS will be set up and show it to them there. Can we get a pic of the reverse of the slab? The rattler slab was counterfeited and the font on the reverse label was slightly off. The dealer who counterfeited the rattler slabs was caught, prosecuted, and spent time in prison. He put real full luster slider AU coins in his counterfeit slabs with the label showing higher MS grades. He primarily did this with silver dollars and double eagles. Once this scam was discovered PCGS actively took these bad slabs off the market and redesigned their slab to have more anti-counterfeiting features.

As soon as I have it in hand I will put up the reverse picture. It is a recent pickup from Great Collections. It was multiple items with only obverse pictures.

ricko · February 22, 2020 6:01AM

Good luck with your coin... Please let us know the results when resolved. Cheers, RickO

MFeld · February 22, 2020 6:42AM

Based upon the obverse image, I have no concerns regarding the authenticity of the coin or the integrity of the holder.

1Bufffan · February 22, 2020 8:11AM

The label with the ribbed lines and printing look correct. when you get to see the reverse look for the correct angle and alignment of the letters. it looks correct to me.

Texast · February 22, 2020 8:24AM

I believe that this was an original PCGS grading and was put in a genuine holder. I believe that being as there may have been lost information on there computer back in the 80's when this was encapsulated they have no way of verifying that it is there's. I can assure PCGS that this is a Genuine PCGS Label, it is the same printer that was used on other labels in this time period. Each printer leaves unique marks on paper when it prints various characters. This 9-pin Dot Matrix that made this label is the same one.

I will not state what those characteristics are on this forum, no sense telling counterfeiters what to do. It is not the first time I had to investigate type characteristics on a printer, on a dot matrix it is easy to match printer to print on paper. It was one of my jobs when I worked for the DA's Conference.

Texast · February 22, 2020 8:41AM

@coinbuf said:
Given the recent events surrounding sending coins to PCGS I'd be very concerned doing so, the slab is worth almost as much as the coin in that grade. Other than an old fingerprint around the R of Liberty I don't see anything of concern with this obv photo.

I was thinking the very same thing, I have a box full of OGH Rattlers I was going to send in for reconsideration but after a recent thread I may wait a while.

I was hoping to find out from PCGS why the Cert number was invalid when I called. I realize that a bunch of folks were gone to a show, but to be told I would have to send it back in, when maybe someone could say why it maybe invalid by spending a few minutes looking it up.

It's not so easy to send a single item by registered mail when I'm trapped at home from a stroke. What maybe easy for some is not for me.

Maybe someone there can look this up and send me a PM with the answer.

AUandAG · February 22, 2020 10:15AM

Looks good to my eyes. However, I wonder how it got all spotty, hazy and yellow (bad dip?). When the perp, mentioned above, was caught perhaps his submissions were on either side of this number and PCGS just flagged a range of cert numbers to investigate. Maybe this was one in that range?

bob

LindeDad · February 22, 2020 11:07AM

Think you might want to send it in for conservation, get rid of that spotty dip residue.

MFeld · February 22, 2020 11:11AM

@LindeDad said:
Think you might want to send it in for conservation, get rid of that spotty dip residue.

That, plus postage and losing the current holder would be a bad move, financially.

Texast · February 22, 2020 12:16PM

@MFeld said:

@LindeDad said:
Think you might want to send it in for conservation, get rid of that spotty dip residue.

That, plus postage and losing the current holder would be a bad move, financially.

Exactly, the plastic has no value to PCGS, the fact is PCGS wants the Gen 1.1 holders off the market all together. All the Rattlers are a problem if a majority of them will upgrade, I think that was happening for a while, now I don't know.

I can imagine in the 80's when people were allowed to put these in there retirement accounts how much money was lost in the market when Graded Coins, especially Morgan and Peace dollars that we're going for ungodly prices and the big bubble burst and they dropped down like lead bricks.

lkeigwin · February 22, 2020 3:10PM

@AUandAG said:
...I wonder how it got all spotty, hazy and yellow (bad dip?).

Looks like surface contamination to me. Either dip residue or PVC haze.

If it's to be sent to PCGS I'd ask that it be conserved at that time too.
Lance.

Texast · February 22, 2020 5:16PM

@lkeigwin said:

@AUandAG said:
...I wonder how it got all spotty, hazy and yellow (bad dip?).

Looks like surface contamination to me. Either dip residue or PVC haze.

If it's to be sent to PCGS I'd ask that it be conserved at that time too.
Lance.

@lkeigwin said:

@AUandAG said:
...I wonder how it got all spotty, hazy and yellow (bad dip?).

Looks like surface contamination to me. Either dip residue or PVC haze.

If it's to be sent to PCGS I'd ask that it be conserved at that time too.
Lance.

If it's on their dime I would. I see a lot of this type of contamination in these holders. I don't know if it was common to dip these before sending them in or if there was something PCGS used. When you think about all the cost it's not worth it to pay more than the coin is worth.

KindaNewish · February 22, 2020 5:56PM

From the last time we had a thread about this
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/12467387

invalid verify on 500xxxx and 501xxx rattlers are common. Everyone that I have owned or seen was genuine (but I don't look at gold or Morgans). I guess that PCGS just lost their data.

lkeigwin · February 22, 2020 6:14PM

True. It's an inexpensive coin. $50?

Yes, it was common to dip coins like this back then. But this was a dip gone wrong. Not properly rinsed. When it was slabbed it probably looked fine. (And FWIW, I seriously doubt PCGS did anything to it.)

Whatever you do, don't crack and submit it hoping for an upgrade. PCGS will body bag it for environmental damage.

If it were mine I'd crack it and rinse it in acetone. If that didn't clear things up I'd give it a proper dip in eZest. And keep it raw unless I was convinced it might grade 65 or higher.
Lance.

Lakesammman · February 22, 2020 6:15PM

Same with some of the white rattlers - you would think with a grade guarantee, they would have been OCD in keeping records.

logger7 · February 22, 2020 6:47PM

The coin could upgrade, old holder lock upgrade. And with a cac sticker should be worth north of $100. I doubt GC would list a counterfeit. You could submit under warranty.

MFeld · February 22, 2020 7:02PM

@logger7 said:
The coin could upgrade, old holder lock upgrade. And with a cac sticker should be worth north of $100. I doubt GC would list a counterfeit. You could submit under warranty.

The coin would need to be conserved to have any reasonable chance to upgrade. The cost to do that, pay for grading, postage and submission to CAC would easily exceed the increase in value.

Additionally, even if the coin were conserved and in a 65 holder, it wouldn’t benefit enough from a CAC sticker to make up for the postage and submission fees.

bob48 · February 22, 2020 8:17PM

You would think that by sending it in to be examined that PCGS could just correct there records and leave the rattler alone. I have had 15 or so that needed to be corrected.
Used to just send them the pictures obverse and reverse to correct them. All have be updated in the data base and they are in my first generation show case at PCGS registry set.
The last three that needed correcting, David Hall was there and I showed them to him at the Long Beach show and he ask me to send the pictures to him directly and he would get them fixed, and he did!
So I think the data base can still be corrected without re-slabbing the coins. But it will take time.

TomB · February 22, 2020 8:54PM

Years ago, we are talking 15-years ago or more, PCGS announced on these boards (actually, one of the precursor boards to this one) that slabs that began with 50 might not be in their system because of a data entry or saving error. I have written this statement perhaps a half-dozen times in similar threads over the years and have never heard a contradiction by PCGS. It is likely all fine.

Texast · February 23, 2020 10:06PM

@TomB said:
Years ago, we are talking 15-years ago or more, PCGS announced on these boards (actually, one of the precursor boards to this one) that slabs that began with 50 might not be in their system because of a data entry or saving error. I have written this statement perhaps a half-dozen times in similar threads over the years and have never heard a contradiction by PCGS. It is likely all fine.

This may very well be how I remember that PCGS had made an announcement about this. I do not remember what there solution was at the time,

I am not going to send this in so they can re-holder it, it would loose the value. This is PCGS's mess, the fact that they did not have a back up of the information at the time is regrettable, but it is there responsibility to make this right without the inconvenience it poses to the owner of the coin. I will be happy to sell it to them, as I would believe they would want this out of circulation. Anyone think this would grade a MS66? And isn't the mark on the back of the cheek the indicator for a VAM.

We will see...

Texast · February 25, 2020 7:57AM

I wonder if the bosses are back from the show yet.

Maybe we can get this matter resolved.

HeatherBoyd · February 25, 2020 1:19PM

@Texast You should be hearing from a PCGS team member shortly. I have provided him with the e-mail address associated with your forum account. If there is an alternate contact method you prefer please PM me.

Texast · February 25, 2020 1:22PM

@HeatherBoyd said:
@Texast You should be hearing from a PCGS team member shortly. I have provided him with the e-mail address associated with your forum account. If there is an alternate contact method you prefer please PM me.

Thank you @HeatherBoyd for your help. PM will be sent.

Old Rattler that the Certification Number " May be invalid" PCGS says send it in.

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