Imagine
MrEureka
Posts: 24,422 ✭✭✭✭✭
Imagine a world where grading companies never existed, but authentication services do. Which would you collect in such a world? How does that compare to what you actually do collect?
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
2
Comments
Coins, maybe?
MrEureka, in the world of your fevered imagination INSIDER2 would be DICTATOR FOR LIFE, MASTER OF ALL, GLORIOUS RULER.......GOD help us all it NEVER comes to pass!
😁
The world of rare tokens is already like this.
An interesting thing I've noticed is that many rare tokens are in old generation slabs while many common coins are in the latest generation slab.
This is one question that has really made me ponder.
The hobby would be so different and for the better, imo.
But it wouldn't change what or how I collect.
I rarely have the need for authentication services.
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress
I would collect as I did before, by looking for the best eye appeal I could find, or move on.
Fighting the Fight for 11 Years with the big "C" - Never Ever Give Up!
Member PCGS Open Forum board 2002 - 2006 (closed end of 2006) Current board since 2006 Successful trades with many members, over the past two decades, never a bad deal.
Originally ANACS under the ANA only authenticated coins. So many submitters asked for a grade opinion that ANACS added grading as an extra cost option.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Coin collecting would still be in the stone age without an unbiased 3rd party grading service. It would be like the wild, wild west. Gunslingers and carpetbaggers selling over graded , cleaned and problem coins.
The grading services have made coin collecting far more safer. I remember the bad old days when I would go to coin shows and always see a few counterfeit coins (especially gold coins) in dealer cases in addition to the usual altered, cleaned, whizzed, repaired, tooled, overgraded, and ATed coins. I remember seeing one dealer that was selling a classic commemorative half dollar that was highly polished. I don't know if he was dishonest or dumb but he labeled his coin as being a Proof. I was naïve enough back then to explain to him that it was polished rather than being a Proof. He thanked me and removed it from his case. I came back to his table an hour later and the coin was back in his display case. It's easy to become cynical when you collect coins.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
3rd party grading is like Google, you don't need to do anything anymore ... Google does it all for you. The mind becomes absent to what's going on ... if you catch my drift
other than that in this day and age I wouldn't be without them. ( TPG ) Now getting to your question ... I'd keep collecting the same way I always have.
Looking at or studying PCGS and NGC graded coins at coin shows is how I learned to grade coins. Especially higher grade mint state coins. Still learning, still a lot for me to learn.
Before the TPGS all we had was the photograde book and a dealers word.
Excellent point. Studying coins in PCGS slabs is a great way to refine your grading skills.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
To answer the OP, I would collect exactly what I collect now. And for two reasons, I’d collect a lot of other things as well.
First, I would expect much lower prices for the finest quality coins, which would drive me to collect an occasional “wonder coin” beyond my area of focus. The Winthrop-Blay 1893-O Dime in 68PL comes to mind, among others.
Second, because slabs would be less important with respect to resale value, I’d collect a lot of raw US coins in albums that I currently wouldn’t collect in slabs, simply due to theIt bulky size. A large portion of the Red Book comes to mind on that point.
One more thing. In a world without grading, I’d be more likely to collect coins with minor problems. At a much reduced price, of course.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
To answer the OP. Me myself I wouldn't play in that mine field of deceit. Imagine the wizard level of coin doctoring. Alpha $20 Saints out the ying yang. Buyer beware unless you got mad grading skills.
Even today with PCGS's good grading consistently, there is almost a need for grades in between the grades. MS64.5 and so on. Still too much room in between the grades. Modifying or refining the grading scale would redefine the grades, make the grades a little more pure, undiluted . jmho
My thoughts:
1. We would be back to altered coins being everywhere. Not good.
2. Collectors of many series would be back to the days when they didn't have a good impression of rarity (if no slabs with grades, then no population reports).
3. Some sort of grading would exist, just as was the case before TPGs existed. But probably not CAC, and perhaps we would not have as many grade increments as we do today, or added cowbells.
4. We would also be back to the old game where many dealers bought a coin at grade X from a collector, but sold it at grade X+1 to another collector.
5. If there are no grades on slabs, then what happens to the MS/PR70 fad with moderns??? Good riddance.
6. In some respects, that would be fine with me. I buy plenty of raw coins, and have removed dozens from their slabs. I don't think my habits in this regard would be turned upside-down, but I would spend FAR less time obsessing about fine grading increments---GOOD! My training is in the physical sciences/bioengineering, and I find the present grading system to be unjustifiable for a variety of reasons--if it went poof, I wouldn't cry. I would still collect what I am collecting now.
7. HOWEVER...If there are no slabs with grades, then arriving at an acceptable grade (as a first step in pricing) can become much more difficult in a coin transaction. There are a few dealers today who refuse to assign grades to their raw coins and instead 'grade them at $zxy.' That's OK too, but there will be more haggling to get a deal done, and that is something I have always hated.
8. No grades on slabs? Then investor money shrinks drastically. This will cause prices for high-end, classic coins to markedly drop. The coin market as a whole would take a hit.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
It is easy if you try...
ANACS started as an authentication service.
The thing I have always disliked about TPS is it led to the 'number game'
I would rather have someone like Insider2 as a high impact person on the hobby than Insider, but that is just me. I would rather have a person who tries to teach than one who spends their time belittling what they see as less than perfect.
Also,
One does not need knowledge of coins to put together a great collection all that is needed is money and a population report.
I have only used a TPG maybe 4-5 times for authentication, that's a reflection of both what I collect and what I know. although I use a TPG for grading, it is mainly for future sales and not as a "flipper" or any immediate sale. my main use of TPG's is for the protection, uniformity and ease of storage that the slabs provide.
You have made some major home runs certifying Jefferson Nickels in the past.
If the TPGs never existed, I’d still collect but it would be a fraction of what I’d be willing to buy today. I’m sure I’d have been ripped off some as well like I was in the 80s. I’d probably stick to mint products, GSA, etc which are more resistant to tampering. I’d invest far less.
Yeah .... it's like "face recognition" system where grade would blindly revealed without human bias BUT then there be not FUN FUN shows and market to feed
Third party grading makes buying coins mail order a lot safer. I remember buying coins from ads in Coin World in the pre-computer and pre-third party grading era. I spent a fortune on postage returning overgraded and cleaned coins before I figured out which dealers could be trusted..
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
You have made some major home runs certifying Jefferson Nickels in the past.
I plead guilty as charged, but those are exceptions and most of those four-baggers are still owned by me. I think it was DHeath who first impressed upon me that the most important time to encapsulate is when we are ready to sell. maybe the only addition I would make to that is if we individually perceive a period when the grading room will work to our advantage.
I’d probably still be collecting, but I would be doing it at a much lower price point with a lower degree of risk tolerance. That wouldn’t be all bad. I’d also be a much, much worse grader as the opportunity and incentive to learn wouldn’t be as high. Collecting would probably be quite a bit more frustrating as it would probably take 1000 looks to find a coin I like instead of 100.
I collected coins long before the TPG's.... and still will buy raw coins on occasion - if I am sure of the coin and it appeals to me...Certainly rare, costly coins benefit from authentication and preservation - and in that area, I would stick to slabbed coins, unless I found a treasure at a yard sale.
Cheers, RickO
What about a middle ground where authenticity + problems are assessed but not a numerical grade?
Grades on slabs drastically aid in the establishment of prices. I think they tend to lower buyer price resistance more than anything else. Without numerical grades, investor funds in the hobby would pull back.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
That would ideal.
Once the fake and problems issues are eliminated, let collectors buy with their hearts.
Buy coins they like using their own standards rather than an assigned grade.
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress
I went from about 90% raw error coins to about 99% certified as mint error coins.
I am going to Long Beach next week to entomb over 30 major error coins.
For what I do, certification is an extremely wise move.
Just to make things clear. I very much like Insider2 and appreciate his valuable contributions here. I'm sure he got a big laugh out of my previous post. After all......if you can't make fun of your friends what good are they? That's what friends are for.
I would still be collecting what I collect but at a reduced price level, and prices in general would be lower as there wouldn't be any registries driving the prices as we see now. I also think that large shows would be better as in hand viewing would be more of a priority.
As to the "bad ol days" not much as really changed, how many times have we seen sellers crack out problem coins and sell them as problem free even members here do this. And what of the sellers that gas coins in holders to create rainbow toned coins, again we have seen members here do this. Greed will always be a part of any business/hobby where a profit is made.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
If you don't want a grade on your coin, you can just put a piece of tape over the grade on the slab.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
For coins, I'm guessing more people value the grade than the authenticity which leads TPGs down this road.
Generally agree but it depends a lot on the series. With US gold dollars or Indian gold quarter eagles, authenticity is more important while with Franklin halves and Jefferson nickels, the grade is more important.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Where authenticity is important, I'm glad PCGS has introduced the new RFID slabs. I'm weary with fake slabs, especially when there are no TrueViews.
Imagine there are no Grading Services.
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to grade or authenticate for
And no Plus grading, too
Imagine all the collectors
Living life in peace
You, you may say I'm a hoarder
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you will join us
And raw coins will be worth a tidy sum.
Imagine no slabs
I wonder if you can
No need for plastic boxes or slab albums.
A penny collection stored in cans.
Imagine…
Abcdefyt87665, you have too much spare time on your hands. I guess that's what accounts for your genius.
No grades=no registry. Good or bad for hobby health?
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
The registry craze is being used as marketing tools, to stampede collectors. So prices for high-end coins in various series (or type sets) have risen. So has the push for finer grade increments and cowbells. Some collectors have jumped on the MS70/PR70/PO01 bandwagons. This does not make sense to me.
Most collectors do not participate in this. Unfortunately, the cowbells have filtered down to the collectors, most of whom do not understand market grading (vs. technical grading). In some respects, however, the junk the U. S. Mint produces each year for collectors is much worse for hobby health than slabs with grades. At least the latter have put a brake on sales of counterfeits and altered coins to unsuspecting consumers.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
I collect early circulated coins almost exclusively. So I value the slabs more for protection than for grade, since 1-2 point swings do not have much effect on the value.
Andy, I’m not sure why graded slabs would affect your willingness to collect coins in albums? It’s still a matter of protecting higher value coins to me. Otherwise I’d probably have all my early quarters in a Wayte Raymond board.
@scubafuel, I agree. Early U.S. Quarters look great in old Wayte Raymond holders! Your collection of CB Quarters would look really, really good the old WR coin boards. Just avoid "slide marks..."
W. David Perkins Numismatics - http://www.davidperkinsrarecoins.com/ - 25+ Years ANA, ANS, NLG, NBS, LM JRCS, LSCC, EAC, TAMS, LM CWTS, CSNS, FUN